Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The Face Hallucination


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Thu, 24 Oct 2019 #1
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

(Copied from John Raica's Experimenter's Corner and pasted here.)

A very rare K intimate interview

(as recorded by Mrs Pupul Jayakar & her sister Nandini Mehta in 1980)

Q: I'd like to question your position that ''there are no footholds to truth'. Most other systems of meditation insist on the need for some support, at least in the early stages. But you have repeatedly said that there are no steps, no levels : 'The first step is the last step'. However, going into your own past, as well as in casual conversations, I have observed that you have gone through all the kriyas, the actions known to religious tradition. You have tested yourself, you have denied your senses; tied a bandage for days on your eyes to see what it is to be blind. You have fasted for days, you observed total silence for over a year in 1951. What was your reason for this silence?

K: Probably it was to find out if I could keep quiet.

Q: Did it help at all?

K: Not a bit.

Q: Then, why did you do it?

K: I have done crazy things — eaten so that I did not mix protein with starch; eaten only vegetables; then only protein...

Q: Do you put silence in the same category?

K: You mean I did not talk to anybody—are you sure? It was never anything serious. There was no spiritual intention behind the silence.

Q: In the experiences that took place in Ooty, you still saw visions. Do you ever see visions now?

K: As far as I can remember, Master K. H. and the Buddha were always there somewhere in my mind. Their 'images' used to follow me for a considerable time.

Q: You have talked about a 'face' being with you, which merged into your face.

K: That is right.

Q: Today, is that face still with you?

K: Yes, occasionally, but why are you asking all these questions?

Q: Because I want to write an accurate account about your life.

K: Right from the beginning, C. W. L. and Amma had said that the 'face' has been created for many, many lives. I was too young to know what they were saying, but apparently the face impressed them tremendously. They said it was the face of the Maitreya Bodhisattva. Many, many years later one morning I suddenly saw that face, a most extraordinarily beautiful face, that used to be with me for many years. Then gradually that face disappeared. It all began after the death of the brother.

Q: Can we pursue the question of your 'visions' ?

K: For many, many years I was not really 'all there'. Sometimes, even now, I am not all there. After I moved away from Ojai—after 1947 to 1948, things started happening, like seeing this extraordinary face. I used to see it every day—in sleep, while walking. It was not a 'vision'. It was an actual fact.

Q: You saw it even when you were awake?

K: Of course, on my walks it was there.

Q: We saw in Ooty a tremendous change taking place in your face...

K: That is true.

Q: And you said ''the Buddha was there''. Do you still see such visions ?

K: The other night in Madras I woke up with this face.

Q: So it is still there?

K: Of course.

Q: What is the 'feeling' of it ?

K: It is not a vision. It is not something imagined. I have tested it out. It is not something that I wanted. I do not say, ‘What a beautiful face’—there is no wish to have it.

Q: But what happens to you when you get these 'visions'?

K: I look at the face.

Q: Does anything happen to you?

K: It is like 'cleaning' the body and the face and the air. I have seen the face in the dark, in the light, while walking.

Q: Before the mystical process that happened in Ojai, in your letters to Lady Emily, you wrote that you were meditating every day?

K: All that 'meditation' was on Theosophical Society lines. I did it because I was told to do it. It was part of the Theosophical Society belief, but it meant nothing to me. I did all that automatically.

Q: When you ‘came to, was it in a flash or was it something which matured without your knowing?

K: In a flash, naturally.

Q: When one reads the Notebook and then reads the talks of 1948, one finds there has been a major leap in the teachings. Is there such a leap taking place all the time?

K: Yes, it is happening all the time, in my brain, inside me. That first night in Madras, I felt the brain exploding; there was an extraordinary quality, light, beauty. This is happening all the time, but not every day. What is necessary is quietness...

Q: I realize that things happen when you are alone. It happened when you were supposed to be very ‘ill’ in 1959, in Srinagar and later in Bombay. I have never been certain whether you have an illness or something else. At the end of any serious illness, you give extraordinary talks.

K: The illness may be a purgation...

Q: I remember your being ill in Bombay ; you had bronchitis. We had to cancel the talks. You had 103-degree to 104-degree temperature. Suddenly you wanted to throw up. So I ran to get a basin. I held your hand. I saw you were about to faint. I called out and you said, ‘No, no.’ Your voice had changed. Your face had changed. The person who sat up was different from the person who had fainted. You were cured. You told me not to leave the body alone; just to be there. You said, ‘Never be anxious near me; never get worried, don’t allow too many people to come near me. In India they never leave an ill person alone.’ You asked me to sit down quietly and then you said, ‘I must tell you something. Do you know how to help a person die? If you know that someone is about to die, help him to be quiet, help him to forget his accumulations, to be free of his worries, of his problems, to give up his attachments, all his possessions.’ You were silent and then you said, ‘It is just like 'stepping over’.... ‘If you can’t do that, you remain where you are.’

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 24 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 24 Oct 2019 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

When K gave a public talk, he'd go into all kinds of philosophical questions.

When he spoke on a personal level with people close to him, it could be quite different.

Here he describes seeing a face, that apparently no one else saw. What does it mean? Was it his face? Someone else's? Does that matter? Was it a hallucination? Was K in touch with a reality that you and I are not? Or did he just have some nutty peculiarities?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 24 Oct 2019.

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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 #3
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Here he describes seeing a face, that apparently no one else saw. What does it mean? Was it his face? Someone else's? Does that matter? Was it a hallucination? Was K in touch with a reality that you and I are not? Or did he just have some nutty peculiarities?

This certainly is a very unusual interview. Are we sure that it's genuine? Assuming that it is, I don't think we can ever know the answers to your questions idiot?. Through years of observation with a silent mind, Krishnamurti explored areas that probably very few human beings have ever explored. His talks and writings reveal how much he learned about himself and other human beings through silent observation and it definitely seems clear when one listens to him speaking that he had first-hand experience of what he was talking about. So how do we explain this apparently fantastical story of a face appearing before him which he insisits was really there? Perhaps he did indeed access some reality that the rest of us cannot. Who knows what lies out there beyond the constant chatter of thought.

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Sun, 24 Nov 2019 #4
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Was it his face? Someone else's? Does that matter?

What matters is to see if one has an image of Krishnamurti? If one has an image of k then does that image help one to understand and therefore transform one self? If not then why have an image of k or anybody including oneself ? Images are like curtains , they prevent the light and bring darkness.

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Tue, 26 Nov 2019 #5
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
(as recorded by Mrs Pupul Jayakar & her sister Nandini Mehta in 1980)

So when was it published before krishnamurti's death or after? If it is after K'S death then it is distorted by the memory of those who recorded. Books before k's death are undistorted because K okayed them .

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Tue, 26 Nov 2019 #6
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Here he describes seeing a face, that apparently no one else saw. What does it mean? Was it his face? Someone else's? Does that matter? Was it a hallucination? Was K in touch with a reality that you and I are not? Or did he just have some nutty peculiarities?

I can't answer any of these questions, not surprisingly. But one thing I think we need to be clear on is that Pupul was far from being the objective observer. Being Indian she was heavily conditioned in all phases of religious belief. K once remarked in Michael Krohnen's book, Kitchen Chronicles, that the Hindus worship about 200,000 gods. Indians appear to be deeply conditioned by religion whether it is Muslim, Hindu or whatever. Much more even than the average American who appears to be deeply conditioned by Christianity especially.

In another book, Mary Z's memoirs, it came out that at least one published book of a K talk in India was based solely on someone's memory of the talk. No notes were taken and there was no recording. The point is that at least some Indians involved with K don't have that sense of objectivity or dedication to fact that is required when reporting factually on a talk.

Can you take anything that has been written by Pupul too seriously or factually?

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Wed, 27 Nov 2019 #7
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

Jack deleted his post and reposted it so that he can be on the top! How competitive he is! Poor guy needs attention but gets none in here. The illness is called 'self -worship' syndrome. He thinks that what he posts in here is very very important to others:)

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Wed, 27 Nov 2019 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
When he spoke on a personal level with people close to him, it could be quite different.

This is an accurate and relevant observation that I would like to discuss a little here. If K were here today and I could ask him a question I would ask him this: Is reincarnation an actuality or is it an invention of the mind, of thought?

The reason I ask this is that I seem to remember that K said there wasn't any such thing as reincarnation. That when we are dead that's it. The body dies and the consciousness, which is a collection of knowledge and experience, fades away. In a way our consciousness may be carried forth for awhile in the memories of those who were close to us and knew us well. They remember things we said or did, how we felt about big and small things in our life but, eventually, those people die too.

So what is the status, the reality, of beings like the Maitreya Bodhisattva, Master KH and the Buddha that K has visions of and speaks about?

Are they examples of re-incarnation or are they remnants of the heavy conditioning that K was exposed to when he was very young and being "educated" by Mrs Besant, CW Leadbeater and others in the Theosophist Society? If K, or those who were close to him, are claiming the former then it appears we may have a possible contradiction here.

Is there or is there not reincarnation? Were the faces K say delusions or the manifestations of re-incarnated beings?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 29 Nov 2019.

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Wed, 27 Nov 2019 #9
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Jack,

You've asked a very interesting question.

You can watch a short video of Krishnamurti talking about re-incarnation here.

Any thoughts on what he says?

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Wed, 27 Nov 2019.

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Thu, 28 Nov 2019 #10
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Being Indian she was heavily conditioned in all phases of religious belief.

We have to be careful not to paint all Indians with a broad brush. I know that was not your intention. But we must remember that questioning nationalism also means questioning whether we can make general characterizations of the people of a particular nation. Obviously, as I'm sure you would agree, there are all kinds of people in India, including top scientists, world class chess masters, and so on. Some may have more traditional Indian religious conditioning than others.

Jack Pine wrote:
Can you take anything that has been written by Pupul too seriously or factually?

Of course, we must be somewhat skeptical of all sources. But she did write an important biography of K that particularly goes into details about his later decades of life. I own it but haven't read it all. Whether she is accurate or not is worth questioning but the above conversation with K, in post #1 of this thread, does seem to me like it really happened.

Jack Pine wrote:
If K were here today and I could ask him a question I would ask him this: Is re-incarnation an actuality or is it an invention of the mind, of thought?

There are many instances of K discussing death and reincarnation. There is the video Sean Hen cites. There is this old thread that you started here in the forum: http://www.kinfonet.org/forums/2-general-discus.... Very important and relevant is this: https://selfdefinition.org/afterlife/articles/k....

Like you, Jack Pine, I don't believe in any kind of afterlife. To me, when you die, that's it. You're gone. But K's view is not so simple. He may have felt there were streams of continuation of some kind. At the same time, he questioned continuity as the striving of the self, the self seeking its own perpetuation. He often said that death is the unknown. This is true on many levels. But it also is a kind of hedge from dealing directly with what happens at physical death.

I appreciate that this questioning is taking us into serious inquiry. I am grateful when we waste less energy on attacks and retaliations.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 28 Nov 2019.

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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 #11
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

The question with regard to reincarnation today is that do all the turkeys who have been slaughtered for this Thanksgiving Day in the US have a chance to be reincarnated and get revenge from humans? If they do then that explains human suffering..

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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
You can watch a short video of Krishnamurti talking about re-incarnation here.

Any thoughts on what he says?

Hi Sean. I have tried a few times to listen to the video you recommended I watch. Unfortunately due to my damaged hearing and K's soft, fuzzy voice and the relatively poor quality of the video itself and no closed captions, I can't understand what k is saying. I tried looking it up at K online and I did find part of that question and answer. But the written transcript was just the first few paragraphs. It ends with the young man talking to Death....and it didn't even finish that dialogue.

But what I was able to read is basically what I recall K saying about reincarnation. What reincarnates? If there is something in particular you wanted me to hear would you mind writing it out on here?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 29 Nov 2019.

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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 #13
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

I think part of what K has pointed out about reincarnation is that it is an escape for some. A hope for a second chance perhaps.

I remember during one question and answer meeting I attended in the late '70s or early '80s someone asking about reincarnation. K replied, "Incarnate now!" This drew applause from the attendees which seems to repel K. He didn't like emotional responses.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 29 Nov 2019.

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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 #14
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
The question with regard to reincarnation today is that do all the turkeys who have been slaughtered for this Thanksgiving Day in the US have a chance to be reincarnated and get revenge from humans? If they do then that explains human suffering..

I like to take it back... Turkeys don't think like humans .

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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Id! I just read the second link you posted above. It is astoundingly relevant to this question of reincarnation and to living itself. The dialogue feels like it brings into sharp focus much of what K was pointing out during his life. I have never read this passage before. Thanks very much for posting it. The question of whether incarnation exists or doesn't has been brought into a context and focus which is very clear.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 29 Nov 2019.

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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Naude talking to K:

"Dr. Besant's echo, for instance," he (K) said, "will go on for a long time, for she had a very strong personality."
"Your viewpoint here is very similar to that of the Theosophists," I said.
"With one important difference," he replied. "There is no permanent substance that survives the death of the body. Whether the ego lasts one year, ten thousand, or a million years, it must finally come to an end."

Taken from the Dialogue with K, Naude and Mary Z posted above by Id in the 2nd link, Post #10

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 29 Nov 2019.

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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 #17
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

I agree with Jack that the interview with K, Naude and Mary Z on the subject of re-incarnation is fascinating. I think K goes about as far as he possibly can here on this subject. "Stepping out of the stream" seems to be a crucial, central point but I need to re-read this interview carefully before commenting further. Thanks for posting this idiot?.

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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #18
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

I think that it all comes down to who am I talking to ? I am not surely talking to Krishnamurti like Ariana was trying to do:)

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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #19
Thumb_fuzzy6 Ken D United States 50 posts in this forum Offline

Didja ever get the feeling that Kinfonet is just a great, big Friar's Roast and the only thing missing is Don Rickles?

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

This post was last updated by Ken D Sun, 01 Dec 2019.

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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #20
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Hi everybody,

Yes, I also found Ken D's post incomprehensible.

Going back to what we were talking about, Krishnamurti's comments on re-incarnation in the discussion with Naude and Mary Z are not easy to understand. The central point seems to be him questioning how much John actually existed as an individual in life before he died. What exactly are we to make of this?

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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #21
Thumb_fuzzy6 Ken D United States 50 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
The central point seems to be him questioning how much John actually existed as an individual in life before he died. What exactly are we to make of this?

Did Krishnamurti exist as an individual before he died? We seem to be very interested in what this non-existing individual happened to have said.

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #22
Thumb_fuzzy6 Ken D United States 50 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Is this comment based on a TV show in the past? I've never been a big TV watcher so I, personally, have no idea what your comment is about.

Okay, you've never heard of Don Rickles or Friar Club roasts. There's this thing called Google.

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #23
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Did Krishnamurti exist as an individual before he died?

As a physical body, yes. But apparently not as a discrete psychological entity with a separate consciousness.

PS Check you personal messages for an answer to your post to me about Rickles and Friar Club.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 01 Dec 2019.

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Sun, 01 Dec 2019 #24
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
The central point seems to be him questioning how much John actually existed as an individual in life before he died. What exactly are we to make of this?

Well, as I pointed out above about K, John existed as physical body but only as a psychological entity. I mean he existed, like we all do, as an illusion. As a belief that our consciousness is somehow unique and separate from other consciousness. Most of us don't see that we all share a consciousness that varies slightly and insignificantly from culture to culture, nation to nation.

Sydney was close to his brother John and obviously missed him and felt that he was still there. Still in the room with him. This is not uncommon.

Recently, after having spent months together in the Rocky Mountains, my wife left ahead of me to go back to Ojai and get the place ready for our winter stay. After she was gone I would be sitting in the living room reading and I felt very strongly that she was still there in her chair reading. I would frequently look over to say something and then remember that she had left for Ojai.

The strength and familiarity of the personality of those close to us remains after they have gone. Whether they have left on a trip or died I think it is the same thing. I think that is what Sydney was feeling and what made him inquire about reincarnation.

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Mon, 02 Dec 2019 #25
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:

Did Krishnamurti exist as an individual before he died?

There seems to be some doubt about the existence of Don Rickles :)

Seriously, K talked about people not existing as individuals as they were part of the stream of common consciousness. It seems that K "stepped out of the stream" while he was alive. Does that mean he existed as an individual?

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Tue, 03 Dec 2019 #26
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

As far as I undressed every verbal explanation that we make in this Chat room is totally worthless even though it makes a logical sense.

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Tue, 03 Dec 2019 #27
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Seriously, K talked about people not existing as individuals as they were part of the stream of common consciousness. It seems that K "stepped out of the stream" while he was alive. Does that mean he existed as an individual?

Yours is a good question and a lot more subtle than it first appears to be. The word "individual" means "un-divided", all one, "whole". It could accurately be said that what K pointed out was "un-divided", the wholeness of life.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 04 Dec 2019.

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