Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Is there a heaven? God? Or is it just an illusion we have been conditioned to accept?


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Wed, 09 Oct 2019 #1
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Public Talk 3, Brockwood Park, England; 13 September 1975

Q: About two years ago I was a Christian so it is very difficult to get rid of statements that Jesus made that no man cometh to the Father but by me. Although I find more sense in your message at the moment, how do you equate this?
K: All right sir, it is very simple. I have no message. Right? I am just pointing out. That is not a message.
Q: But why are you doing it?
K: Why am I doing it. Wait a minute, I'll answer it. First of all let us answer the first question, then the other afterwards. There is a great doubt amongst those who have gone into this question whether Jesus lived at all. There may have been a Jesus but we won't go into all that. Why do we want a message? You understand? Why do we want somebody to give us something when everything is in you? You understand?
Q: It is wonderful.
K: No, it is not wonderful. (Laughter) Please. It is not wonderful. Please do look at it. You are the result of all the influences, of the many cultures, many words, propaganda, influences. You are that. And if you know how to look, how to read, how to listen, how to see - the art of seeing, the art of learning, the art of listening - everything is there, right in front of you. But we don't have the energy, the inclination, or the interest. We want somebody to tell us what there is on the page. And we make that person who tells you what is on the page into an extraordinary human being. We worship him, or destroy him, which is the same thing. So it is there. You don't want a message. For god's sake! Wait a minute, sir. Do look at it, please!
Is the book important or what you find in the book? What you find in the book after you have read it, you throw it away. Now what you find in these talks, you listen, find out, go into it and throw away the speaker. The speaker is not at all important. He is like a telephone. Right?
The other question is: why do you speak. Does that need answering? Would you say to the flower on the wayside, 'Why do you flower?' It is there for you to look, to listen, to see the beauty of it and come back again to look at the beauty of it. That is all.
Q: We have the message in ourselves, we are the guru.
K: We have a goal in ourselves.
Q: Guru.
K: Ah, guru. My god!
Q: (Inaudible) ...it is heaven.
K: We have a guru in ourselves. Have you? Please listen. Guru means in Sanskrit, the root meaning of that word means, heavy.
Q: He said 'heaven'.
K: Heaven, yes. Heaven in ourselves. It is the same thing, sir. Have you a heaven in yourself? My lord, I wish you had! Have you a heaven in yourself? Or yourself is so confused, so miserable, so anxious, how can you - what a set of words you use - heaven. You know, you substitute god into heaven, heaven as god and you think you are quite different. Before, people believed that you had god inside you - right? - light inside you, or something else inside you. But when you see actually that you have nothing, just words, then if there is absolutely nothing, then there is complete security. And from that everything happens, flowering. That's enough.

Krishnamurti Texts
'Is There a God?'

?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 10 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #2
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

dev·il (d?v??l)
n.


  1. often Devil In many religions, the major personified spirit of evil, ruler of Hell, and foe of God. Used with the.

  2. A subordinate evil spirit; a demon.

  3. A wicked or malevolent person.

  4. A person: a handsome devil; the poor devil.

  5. An energetic, mischievous, daring, or clever person.

  6. Printing A printer's devil.

  7. A device or machine, especially one having teeth or spikes and used for tearing.

  8. An outstanding example, especially of something difficult or bad: has a devil of a temper.

  9. A severe reprimand or expression of anger: gave me the devil for cutting class.

  10. Informal Used as an intensive: Who the devil do you think you are?
    tr.v. dev·iled, dev·il·ing, dev·ils or dev·illed or dev·il·ling

  11. To season (food) heavily.

  12. To annoy, torment, or harass.

  13. To tear up (cloth or rags) in a toothed machine.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #3
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

Love the #13- To annoy ,torment , or harass. :)

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #4
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

The Christian concept of god and heaven is the opposite of what K was pointing out. For Christians, and in other organized religions too, there are a bunch of goals to attain. You have to do this or be that before you can go to heaven, etc, etc. But didn't K point out that less was better?

Instead of trying to attain these goals that religion sets out; goals of becoming a different person "through Jesus" and all that rot that actually expands the self, produces more images of the self, you have to understand yourself. Understand the images you are creating of yourself.

Read what some people are writing on these forums. They talk of love and conflict and the self and much more yet these are all just ideas, images they have of what they think K was saying. Read how they praise each other and encourage each other to believe that they have "changed" and that they know what "love" is or "peace" or "understanding" or "conflict". They don't. Isn't it correct that with K the understanding, love, peace, ending of conflict and all the rest can only be when the center, the self has disappeared? But by claiming to have understood all of these things, to be living all of these things they have actually expanded the self and the images that sustain the self, the ego.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #5
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Letting go of everything is so very difficult because we have been trained, conditioned to accumulate more and more. Not only more material goods, but that which is really destructive, to attain what we believe are more spiritual attributes. We all do it by habit without even thinking about it. And most of us are doing it here on these forums without even realizing it.

We are expanding ourselves, our center, by believing we are suppose to work hard and understand and, then attain, all those things K talked about: The love, peace, understanding, oneness with all of life, etc. These things exist whether we understand them or not. But these things are not for the individual, the center of conditioning, the accumulator of experiences. Only when all of this ends are these things like love, peace, etc real. At least that's what K has pointed out. I don't claim to have dropped my center, my ego.

So when you read someone on these forums, or someplace else, claiming to see this or that or be this or that who is it exactly that is claiming to know these things? The center, the ego which is a denial of really knowing these things.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #6
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Isn't it correct that with K the understanding, love, peace, ending of conflict and all the rest can only be when the center, the self has disappeared? But by claiming to have understood all of these things, to be living all of these things they have actually expanded the self and the images that sustain the self, the ego.

It seems that the ego is there with all of us and can raise its head at any point. It's easy to make the mistake of sitting back and thinking, "I know all about the ego and have left it behind now". Surely all we can do is be watchful of the ego. Doesn't it all come back to constant awareness from moment to moment?

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #7
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
If we already think we know then we quit observing or we observe with a bias which is constantly trying to validate what we think we already know.

So the above statement is not an opinion or knowledge! Only what others say in here is always an opinion according to Jack's knowledge!

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
So the above statement is not an opinion or knowledge! Only what others say in here is always an opinion according to Jack's knowledge!

You should really try to do something to understand and deal with all the hate you have in you. That hate that is constantly being directed at me.

I'll tell you what; you stay off the threads I start and I'll stay off the ones you start. In that way we can end this conflict between us. If you don't agree I will be left to presume that you would rather be angry and display your hate than to find some sort of peace.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #9
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

I have a better suggestion. You stop sending me private perverted messages first. You cant even do that can you? You are obsessed with yourself and you blame and condemn and say others are angry at you.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #10
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

So the answer is no. You're going to keep on posting these irrational, nonsense messages full of hate and anger. You would rather perpetuate this conflict than to end it now. Is that what you are saying?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 11 Oct 2019.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #11
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
That hate that is constantly being directed at me.

This is the same thing that Trump does . He keeps repeating a false until people submit to that false and accept it.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Why do you refuse to answer a simply question? Are you going to perpetuate this conflict by continuing to post insulting, illogical posts directed at me or not? It's a simple question. I am not repeating anything but this simple question that even you should be able to answer.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #13
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Are you going to perpetuate this conflict by continuing to post insulting, illogical posts directed at me or not?

Where does that question come from? From your opinions and judgment about what I write.

A wrong question inevitably gets a wrong answer that it seeks.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #14
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

I don't need to post anything more in here.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Doesn't it all come back to constant awareness from moment to moment?

Yes. This instead of accumulating knowledge in the form of conclusions and opinions that immediately becomes part of the past. This adds to our conditioning, this is our conditioning; knowledge and experience.

If we already think we know then we quit observing or we observe with a bias which is constantly trying to validate what we think we already know.

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