Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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On Relationships and Conflict


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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #121
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Gentlemen, I know "expanding of consciousness" has various popular meanings and I think I know what you, Sean and Dan, are referring to but it raises the question with respect to what K pointed out: Do we want to expand the consciousness or move beyond it? Maybe expanding awareness and freeing the mind of conditioning is what you were referring to?

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #122
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

To me, the whole - K did yoga so I'll do it, too - is a little silly. Now at K centers there are yoga classes and programs. I've also seen people in Ojai carefully take walks on the same routes that K did, up into the mountains regularly.

I mean sure, exercise is very important, taking care of the health of the body and mind. And yoga and walking are great. I do them both. But copying K outwardly? Trying to expand the mind to be like K?

Are you going to start astral traveling to the masters? He thought that he did when he was younger.

Are you going to strictly eat vegetarian? Are you going to wake up early, about 4 AM, sit up with the back straight in meditation every morning? He did. The latter two would probably be great for you but now you're probably thinking "Oh God, don't suggest that."

If we copy K outwardly aren't we just vainly seeking after a method?

Anyway, I think it's wonderful if you do yoga, tai chi, go to the gym, walk, eat healthy vegetarian, do quiet sitting meditation. But you're going to be you and K was K.

What K points to most importantly is the end of trying to become something, seeing what is, and in that seeing, dissolving, yes?

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #123
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
To me, the whole - K did yoga so I'll do it, too - is a little silly.

And who, pray tell, is saying this other than you? I haven't read where anyone else is even implying this.

idiot ? wrote:
Are you going to wake up early, about 4 AM, sit up with the back straight in meditation every morning? He did.

Not according to Mary Z's Memoirs that closely documented the last 20 years of his life. I'm reading them now, am 75% done with them, the memoirs, detailed his daily life to the point of exhaustion. K didn't get up at 4 AM regularly to do anything according to the memoirs.

idiot ? wrote:
Now at K centers there are yoga classes and programs. I've also seen people in Ojai carefully take walks on the same routes that K did, up into the mountains regularly.

I'm just curious. Can you name one of those routes, paths, that K regularly walked on? Actually there was one in particular that he mostly walked on that he could access from Pine Cottage fairly easily. Do you remember the name of that trail?

I live in Ojai for six months out of the year and regularly visit up there to the Pepper Tree Retreat (Arya Vihara) and Pine Cottage (K Library). There are still one or two people I knew from back in the 1970's who are still with the Krishnamurti Foundation of America and we have been friends for 40 years. I'm not aware of any official yoga classes or any yoga classes. They use to offer yoga classes years ago. They do have discussions on Saturdays I think at 4:00PM in the Library.

I'm not trying to "bust your chops" but I do question the veracity of your information.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 21 Oct 2019.

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #124
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I'm not trying to "bust your chops" but I do question the veracity of your information.

Actually, you may be surprised by this but I appreciate being corrected when I'm wrong.

I can't remember where I read that K often would sit up straight in bed upon waking and meditation happened. I haven't read all of Mary Z.'s book. Of course, her not mentioning it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Yet I do remember she and K discussing whether meditation happened for him at some point in her book, although it may not have been at 4 AM. In any case, someone with an electronic version of her book can search for "meditation" and see what she says, if anything.

As to yoga at K centers, please look at https://kfa.org/calendar/ which shows a number of upcoming "Yoga + Inquiry" events.

I don't know the names of Ojai trails but I have certainly walked up the street from Pine Cottage and into the mountains once or twice. I've also hiked other trails in Ojai that were beautiful.

It's certainly possible, Jack Pine, that we have met in person and had a nice, friendly encounter. I wouldn't be at all surprised. Also, I have seen some fine carpentry work at the center. I don't know if you contributed to that but it's great.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 21 Oct 2019.

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #125
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

It is odd that Mary z being seen with Krishnamurti a lot never said any thing intelligent in her conversation with K. I don't think that she ever did what Krishnamurti wanted his audience to do. She kept asking dumb questions. Once I ran into her after k was dead in one of the gatherings in Ojai . She had cast on her leg. When we talked she was too excited to talk about k. She said k never had ice cream until she gave him one and k was very amazed by the taste ! That sounds fishy to me that k never had ice cream before she gave him one . I think she was a little off as most of Krishnamurti's audiences were and are.
Anyway I don't accept anything that anybody says about Krishnamurti's private life. They just want to sell you their book. I am interested in Krishnamurti's inquiries not what and where he went or ate.

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #126
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

Humans are man-worshipers. There is a tendency to focus on krishnamurti's image than on what krishnamurti investigated.

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #127
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I appreciate it and I think it's time to stop this whatever is going on between us.

That means you never apricieate it before! The damage that you have done cannot be undone by your ego.

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #128
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I appreciate it and I think it's time to stop this whatever is going on between us.

That means you never apricieate it before! The damage that you have done cannot be undone by your ego.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #129
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It's certainly possible, Jack Pine, that we have met in person and had a nice, friendly encounter. I wouldn't be at all surprised. Also, I have seen some fine carpentry work at the center. I don't know if you contributed to that but it's great.

Thanks for your above post. I appreciate it and I think it's time to stop this whatever is going on between us. And thanks for the compliment but I had nothing to do with the finish carpentry at any K property. I worked for Max Falk, the builder of Oak Grove School and redoing and adding on to the Pine Cottage, as a frame carpenter. He had a couple of really good lead carpenters working for him. And Max was no slough himself.

Horn Canyon Trail over by Thatcher School was the path K often took from the time he was a young man up into his senior years. In about an hour and a half you can get up to the top of, or at least close to, the Topa Topas. Personally I prefer the Cozy Dell Trail that begins over by Friends Ranch where they have the warehouse and you can buy oranges and other citrus fruit they raise. It's much closer to where I live and still gets you up into the mountains.

And, yes, we might know each other. We might even be or have been friends. That would be ironic wouldn't it? Peace.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #130
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Gentlemen, I know "expanding of consciousness" has various popular meanings and I think I know what you, Sean and Dan, are referring to but it raises the question with respect to what K pointed out: Do we want to expand the consciousness or move beyond it? Maybe expanding awareness and freeing the mind of conditioning is what you were referring to?

Hi Jack. I don't know what happens when someone takes psilocybin or other psychedelic drugs. I would certainly not think that it was a good idea to take such drugs given that the mind is such a delicate thing. However, I have known people who have taken magic mushrooms and the like and have ended up sitting in front of a tree, staring at it for about fifteen minutes and later claiming that they felt a profound connection with said tree. What does this mean? I have no idea. Perhaps it goes back to what Dan was speaking about earlier - that we all live in our own small, conditioned envelope or whatever. Perhaps some people have taken psilocybin and broken out of their tiny, conditioned space temporarily and felt more connected with life around them. When the drug wears off then I assume the person goes back to their conditioned envelope once again.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #131
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
To me, the whole - K did yoga so I'll do it, too - is a little silly.

Hi idiot?. Like Jack, I'm confused as to where this comment is coming from. Is it connected to anything that has been written on this thread? I mentioned that I'd done yoga many years ago but I'm not aware of anybody suggesting that they should do yoga because K did it.

Anyway, there is the question of the value of doing yoga. I can only speak about my own experience. I attended a Kundalini Yoga class when I lived in Scotland about 30 years ago. Kundalini is a very energetic, dynamic form of yoga and after the stretching and breathing exercises the teacher would take us through a deep relaxation at the end of the session when we were all physically tired. This consisted of the students lying on their backs in silence. The teacher would then ask us to become aware of what was going on both inside our bodies and the sounds in and outside the room. He would ask us to observe in silence, becoming aware of each thought that entered our head and watching as it left.

I felt I got a lot out of attending this class once a week. It seemed to energise me both physically and mentally. Sitting or lying in silence with a gentle voice guiding us through a deep relaxation helping to bring attention and awareness to what was going on around us was a pleasant and interesting experience. I certainly felt a sensation of well-being and never regarded it as a little silly.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #132
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
As to yoga at K centers, please look at https://kfa.org/calendar/ which shows a number of upcoming "Yoga + Inquiry" events.

You know, if there were pole-dancing or stud poker events advertised at K centres I'd probably find it a bit odd, but is there really anything wrong with "Yoga + Inquiry" events?

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #133
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
You know, if there were pole-dancing or stud poker events advertised at K centres I'd probably find it a bit odd, but is there really anything wrong with "Yoga + Inquiry" events?

To me, the question isn't "Why can't there be yoga at K centers?" but rather "Why should there be yoga at K centers?" The purpose of the centers is to disseminate K's teachings, have inquiry meetings, promote K stuff. K didn't teach, "Do yoga." It's something he personally did for exercise. He was opposed to any religious trappings of yoga. We think of yoga as physical and possibly breathing exercises, separate from their Hindu origins. But they were created as part of a larger pursuit of moksha, union with God. Even the common phrase that you hear in yoga classes, "Namaste," I bow to the divine in you, begs many questions from the K perspective.

As far as I know, none of the K centers had yoga when K was alive. They have introduced it more recently, I think. And the justification is that yoga was something K did. But he did a lot of things. For example, he went out to dinner with some of his wealthy supporters. I wouldn't mind being taken out to dinner by a wealthy K supporter but I don't see that happening at a K center any time soon. He wore expensive shoes and clothing. Should the brands he wore be sold at K centers?

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a yoga class, although there may be some religion in it, and I have done so many times. But I question whether the K centers are the place for it.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 22 Oct 2019.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #134
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
The teacher would then ask us to become aware of what was going on both inside our bodies and the sounds in and outside the room. He would ask us to observe in silence, becoming aware of each thought that entered our head and watching as it left.

It's pretty clear that K was opposed to group meditation, guided or unguided. The teacher, in leading the group meditation, is given a degree of spiritual authority. And K warned of even the hint of any kind of coercion that could happen in a group meditation.

Now again, I've personally done this kind of thing a lot, especially sitting quietly, unguided, with lots of other people. You and I eat alone and we eat with other people. Why shouldn't we sit quietly alone and also with other people sometimes? But this is something K clearly was against. I don't think you will see group quiet sitting at a K center. Yes, K sat quietly in silence. He encouraged you to sit alone in silence. He didn't run groups doing it.

Again, I think these kinds of investigations, whether seated or lying flat, whether guided or not, although I prefer unguided, whether alone or in a group, are fine. But K warned against them. And you can certainly see them being taken as methods.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 22 Oct 2019.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #135
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

This is something I really differ with K about. He was so strict about no method, insisting that real meditation is something that just happens and nothing can be done to create an environment where it might happen. So what happens? The people who take K seriously know that K said real meditation is of the utmost importance. And they know he said they can do nothing to bring it about, because that would be a method, an idea supporting something beyond any idea. So they wait for lightning to strike. And it doesn't. They continue to live in conflict.

It's a catch 22.

It's not the way K grew up. He chanted mantras when young. He did whatever meditation the Theosophists taught, probably including astral travel and kundalini. Was it nonsense? Sure. But somehow, some quiet sitting was important. Just before the process begins he was doing a lot of meditation.

You and I are making choices in life. We pick what to eat, what to do. As long as we are making some choices, we can choose to investigate sitting quietly, watching the mind, watching how it moves, and if it quiets down or not. That choice is no more problematic than any other of the many choices we make daily. I am existing now as a separate self making choices. That's a fact. That's how I must begin. There's no other way to begin. It may be that the dissolving of the self, love, true silence only happen without choice, without method. But I, the choosing separative self, must begin where I am. I must investigate for myself. Lightning still may not strike. But for sure it won't if I don't really look into things for myself.

Can I follow my thought in daily life? Sure. And that is so important. But if I just sit down in silence with no other distractions, responsibilities, escapes, I will be face to face with just what is. There is really nothing quite like that, for beginning anew.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 22 Oct 2019.

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Tue, 22 Oct 2019 #136
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

I think that anybody who is unaware of him or herself and has no self- awareness anything he or she says or writes about Krishnamurti or yoga or politics or whatever has practically very little meaning. They are mere opinions from a soul that tries to escape from his or her misery.

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Wed, 23 Oct 2019 #137
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Today's quote of the day (Oct. 23, 2019) is appropriate to some of what we have discussed in this thread:

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day For April 25, 2012, National College, La Plata, Argentina | Public Talk 2nd August, 1935:

You can be intellectually aware, and so there will be no action; but if you are aware with your whole being, then there is action, which alone will free the mind from corruption. If you are merely aware intellectually, then you ask such a question as this. Then you say, "Tell me how to act", which means, "Give me a system, a method to follow, so that I can escape from that action which may necessitate suffering."

...

If you are really conscious with your whole being that a particular thing is a hindrance, a poison, then you will be completely free from it. If you are conscious of a snake in the room - and that consciousness is generally acute, for there is fear involved in it - you never ask another how to get rid of the snake. (Laughter) In the same way, if you are completely, deeply aware, for example, of nationalism, or any other limitation, you will then not ask how to get rid of it; you discern for yourself its utter stupidity. If you are wholly conscious that the acceptance of authority in religion and politics is destructive of intelligence, then you, the individual, will disentangle the mind from all the stupidities and pageantry of religion and politics. (Applause) If you truly felt all this, then you would not merely applaud, but individually you would act.

This is just what K says in the chapter On Transformation.

He says if you're really fully aware of some problem that you are participating in, it drops, there is transformation, there is liberation from it.

And that is exactly what I meant when I said, "When the truth is clearly seen there is transformation."

Now I have more recently found some situations where people bring up "transformation" and use the word in its ultimate sense, and K responds to that. So there may in fact be situations where he discusses an ultimate transformation. I certainly was not using the word in that way and K in his chapter On Transformation states that he is not using the word in that way. But it is not unreasonable that my brief sentence was understood differently than the way I intended. Hopefully it is now clarified.

And by the way, I'm not convinced by his snake analogy. If I were in a room with a snake, I certainly would keep my distance. But discussing how to get rid of it with people would be helpful for resolving it.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 23 Oct 2019.

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Wed, 23 Oct 2019 #138
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
But discussing how to get rid of it with people would be helpful for resolving it.

Hire a 'snake charmer'... they supposedly know how to do it, don't they?

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Thu, 24 Oct 2019 #139
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

If one has not seen the false in him or herself after seventy years then how is he or she see the truth now? It is too late. It is like a man who has got cancer and now he wants to live healthy, so he eats good food and exercises . It is too late. His Brain has been rutting away. But we can discus things for the sake of discussion in here.

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Thu, 24 Oct 2019 #140
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Forget the snake analogy. What he was saying isn't about snakes it was about "hindrances" like nationalism, organized religion and other forms of conditioning that divide and separate, people that leads to conflict.

But then you know how those "Indian Gurus" and snake charmers are. Sitting there in their turbans with their flute and cobra in a basket...…….

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 24 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 24 Oct 2019 #141
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

I'm reconsidering the snake:

K's point about the snake is that when there is urgency, when the snake is close, you immediately act, you put some distance between you and the snake, you don't think. Then, when you have some distance and feel a degree of safety, you think about how to deal with the situation.

So too, we tend to put mental distance between ourselves and our problems, we think about how to deal with them, we detach from them. If instead, we fully open to the problem head on in the moment, completely seeing the situation, the holding on happening, the full implications, then there is immediate action, there is dropping, there is liberation. For example, I see that I'm in conflict, I see that I'm holding on to an idea, I drop it, and the conflict vanishes. Which doesn't necessarily mean I surrender in an argument. It means that relationship improves when I don't have a personal investment in some preconceived outcome.

So the psychological problem is transformed with full present moment awareness. But some problems are technical and really benefit from being thought out carefully. When everyone is safe from the snake, the best way to remove it becomes a technical problem. Do we coax it out, lure it with food, call in an expert, etc.?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 24 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 24 Oct 2019 #142
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

We are the deadly snakes, Each one of us has the capacity to sting. We don't like each other in this forum so we try to sting each other psychologically. So one has to step out of oneself and then find a solution.

This post was last updated by One Self Thu, 24 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 24 Oct 2019 #143
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
We are the deadly snakes...So one has to step out of oneself and then find a solution.

We certainly can be hurtful to others. Is the solution found by stepping out of oneself or by stepping into oneself? First I must see that I'm hurting others, yes?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 24 Oct 2019.

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Fri, 25 Oct 2019 #144
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
First I must see that I'm hurting others, yes?

It is obvious that we hurt each other but the question is that what is it that gets hurt in here? My fictitious image? Why do I need a fictitious image to function at all?

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Fri, 25 Oct 2019 #145
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Is the solution found by stepping out of oneself or by stepping into oneself?

I think that the answer to that question takes a lifetime of true experience to find out...

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Fri, 25 Oct 2019 #146
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

I think that we don't take the poisonous snake analogy seriously. That is the problem.

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Fri, 25 Oct 2019 #147
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

One is responsible for BEING 'hurt'.

Can there be 'hurt' if one does not value the image that one presents to the world?

If there is no image, is there 'hurt' at all?

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Fri, 25 Oct 2019 #148
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
I think that we don't take the poisonous snake analogy seriously. That is the problem.

The thing about having a poisonous snake in the room is that it forces us to live and act in the present moment because of immediate danger. With idiot's example of eating Doritos, we don't see the danger clearly and the negative effects of eating them are probably a long way off. It's a kind of "live now pay later" situation. Does seeing things with great clarity bring us into contact with the present moment?

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Fri, 25 Oct 2019 #149
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
One is responsible for BEING 'hurt'.

Perhaps, if we're only talking about an argument or insult. But the child is not responsible for being physically abused. Violence is committed on all kinds of levels and in all kinds of ways. "Blame the victim" is not the solution.

When I am violent, when I create conflict, which since I am a divisive self I most certainly do, then I am responsible. In fact, I can't think of a better motivation, if any is needed, for being aware, for watching myself in relationship, than seeing my own violence.

When K says that the current crisis demands a radical revolution, the crisis is me, the separative human self, and the violence and conflict I am creating and spreading.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 25 Oct 2019.

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Fri, 25 Oct 2019 #150
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Does seeing things with great clarity bring us into contact with the present moment?

Or the reverse: Does being in the present moment cause us to see things with great clarity?

Or is there no causality whatsoever, just clear seeing now?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 25 Oct 2019.

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