Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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On Relationships and Conflict


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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 #91
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
If Fred the plumber says that nationalism divides people and creates unnecessary conflict between people, then either what he's saying is true or it's false. Maybe Fred the plumber realizes it, no longer puts a flag on his front porch and no longer sings the national anthem. Maybe he just heard K say it and it made sense to him. Maybe he still puts a flag on the front porch. Is Fred getting a bit uppity saying this about nationalism? Who really knows anything about Fred the plumber and what difference does it make? The important question is what is really true about nationalism. And in understanding what is true about nationalism, is it dropped?

I think Fred the plumber's statement about nationalism isn't really too problematic. However, what if Fred says, "Happiness is a timeless state". Here Fred's statement seems to be true according to Krishnamurti. But has Fred worked this out for himself or is he just repeating something he doesn't really understand? Does it matter? Well, I think it does. If we just repeat truths that we don't understand then the original truth of the statement is diminished, surely.

I'm not suggesting that you idiot?, didn't understand the statement "When truth is clearly seen there is transformation." I just meant that the meaning of this statement needs to be illustrated and clarified by examples. I see you have just done this with the Doritos example so thanks for that.

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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 #92
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
However, what if Fred says, "Happiness is a timeless state". Here Fred's statement seems to be true according to Krishnamurti. But has Fred worked this out for himself or is he just repeating something he doesn't really understand? Does it matter? Well, I think it does. If we just repeat truths that we don't understand then the original truth of the statement is diminished, surely.

Clearly and succinctly put. I think this has always been the heart of the discussion. Or should have been if we hadn't of been distracted with several quotes from K and other attempts to cloud the real issue behind my simple question: Are you transformed? And my other question idiot? is, Do you see truth?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 19 Oct 2019.

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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 #93
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
If we just repeat truths that we don't understand then the original truth of the statement is diminished, surely.

Dan: This is obviously true Sean and I think that it is a temptation for all of us interested in these teachings. That by repeating something you've heard or read, that that means that you've understood it. Or that by repeating something, that that will 'lead' to understanding...But when there is an actual understanding or 'insight' into the meaning of something and is actually 'seen' in yourself, that's where the discernment between 'repeating' something and 'seeing' the actual truth in oneself comes clear. I may see something and use K. words to express it. Because perhaps they describe the thing seen so perfectly...and then they are 'my' words...I think that it's a waste of time to judge whether what one says is actual or from imitation. We can't know that about another, hard enough to discern it in ourselves.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 19 Oct 2019.

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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 #94
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

When someone asks a question from someone else the questioner is responsible to clarify his question(for example what does he mean by the word transformed and so on). If the questioner is not interested in clarifying his question then he is fooling around and being naughty. He is not serious and is wasting himself.

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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 #95
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

I asked a simple question to someone who made a fairly extravagant statement wondering if he/she was merely repeating what K had said or whether that person have made a break through of being able to "see the truth which leads to transformation". I have been met with a string of false equivalencies and dodges. Anything to avoid answering the question.

The answer, by the way, was NO. The same answer the rest of us would give if we were being honest. I really hope this ends it.

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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 #96
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

So Dan, if you have time away from your other pursuits on this thread do you have any comment to the information you posted about neuro-connections and my response to it. I thought it was a fairly interesting subject to inquire into a bit further. What do you think?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 20 Oct 2019.

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Sat, 19 Oct 2019 #97
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
do you have any comment to the information you posted about neuro-connections and my response to it. I thought it was a fairly interested subject to inquire into a bit further. What do you think?

Thank you for your response to my post about the brain's part in all this. Rather than a neurologist's view on all this, I was interested in a layman approach. We both (all) have a brain(s) and it's pretty much the same one. We've always heard since childhood that only 10% percent of it is used. Did we ever ask "why" is that so? Why such a small amount? And why do these brains bring about such differences in each of us? Is it that they have become small conditioned 'boxes' and that brings about these differences? And without these 'boxes', these individual 'I's, this narrow, limited circuitry, would humanity have the possibility to not be all over the place: killing, cheating, torturing, grabbing, loving,helping etc.? Can we go into this as first-hand 'owners of these three organs: the reptilian, the animal, and the neo-cortex, (intellectual) brains? And leave the scientific work of the 'experts' out?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 19 Oct 2019.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #98
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Can we go into this as first-hand 'owners of these three organs: the reptilian, the animal, and the neo-cortex, (intellectual) brains? And leave the scientific work of the 'experts' out?

Well we can certainly try. When asking questions of a scientific nature it has long been my response to include studies and I am not quite sure how to proceed otherwise. Also, my background is not in the biological sciences but rather the physical sciences. Geology was my undergrad study and hydrogeology was my graduate study. So I have no background in studying the function of the brain.

I'm presently reading Mary Zimbalist's Memoirs on K. A bit repetitious but interesting. In it she again points out that K was sheltered from a fairly young age and the main source of possible conditioning was from the Theosophists. K apparently remained unaffected by that conditioning. The point is that the way we were raised most likely has a great deal to do with by what and by how much we were conditioned.

How do you think we should start this discussion. And should we move it to another thread and not intrude on Sean's thread?

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #99
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And should we move it to another thread and not intrude on Sean's thread?

Are the threads the property of X or Y OR Z in kinfonet? This is so anti- krishnamurti.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #100
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Can my brain, your brain or the Spanish or English or Dutch brain discard the safety and security it has settled for? Seeing that the 'holding on' to what it has settled for, has and is, causing such destruction? Society has allowed a place for all the mischief, even lauded it...but can we question it? Can we look at the whole situation in a different light?... That we, each of us, have settled for these tiny 'prisons' we inhabit and perpetuate and live out our lives in.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #101
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen began this thread with a video about conflict. We got sidetracked talking about transformation. Are we in conflict with what K says transformation is? He says it is seeing the true and the false moment to moment. But some of us apparently are sticking with it being an ultimate thing, something reserved only for K, despite K saying explicitly it is not an ultimate thing. I encourage you to read K's chapter On Transformation (post #37) several times if you are interested in understanding what he really says about transformation.

The question of transformation is related to conflict. K says that division creates conflict. Do we insist on dividing seeing the truth about something from an end result of that seeing? If so, the seeing and the result are in conflict. Surely K is talking about wholistic seeing that is not apart from change that the seeing entails. Undivided. Surely it is seeing moment to moment, not bound up in the thought division of past or future.

At about 9:50 in the video K says, "Where there is division there must be conflict." Is that true? If I tear a piece of paper in half, dividing it, does the left half fight with the right? No. So K must be talking about psychological division, yes? Which is thought. Thought separates this from that, yes?

You might listen again to the video at 9:50 and afterwards. "Where there is contradiction there must be conflict. Where there is division there must be conflict." Is that so? Are we doomed to conflict?

A lot of the sticking points in understanding K have to do with division and oneness, don't they? For example, "the observer is the observed." We're used to a division and K proposes a oneness. "You are the world." Again, we tend to think in division and K talks about a oneness. What do you say?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 20 Oct 2019.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #102
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
.but can we question it? Can we look at the whole situation in a different light?... That we, each of us, have settled for these tiny 'prisons' we inhabit and perpetuate and live out our lives in.

I don't see why we can't question anything we want. The way I see it we, don't we need to see how our brains were conditioned beginning back when we were children? First I draw your attention to part of today's quote: If we can know for ourselves that which is false in our thinking, then we shall know naturally, without imposition, what is the true.

Can I give you some examples of how I was conditioned at a very early age by the public school system I attended? I was raised in a fairly conservative state in the US. By the second or third grade we were required to stand up in class every single morning and recite both the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag and the Lord's Prayer.

Even though we had many Jewish classmates Christianity was still being forced on us by the public school system and therefore the government of this state. If you asked my parents if they were Christian they probably would have said yes. But as far as I can remember they never, ever stepped inside a church unless it was a funeral they were attending. They never recited any of the Christian propaganda and so on. Yet the public school system was making me, all of us, participate in the dominant religion by saying a Christian prayer.

I soon grew tired of repeating these meaningless words every day and I started to change some of the words as children will do. In the Lord's Prayer during the part where it says...." our Father who art in heaven...." I added and "f" and an "s" to the beginning and end, respectively, of the word "art". It made me feel better and also gave me and those close around me a little laugh. I changed words in the Pledge too that were seriously anti patriotic.

Then there were the lessons in school itself. All the utterly false history lessons like little George Washington chopping down a cherry tree, which never happened, and all the rest of the "legends" about our great national heroes which were mostly crap.

Here's my point, Dan. Can we be aware of the things we had hammered into our brains both in and out of school? And then move from there through-out our lives becoming acutely aware of those things that conditioned us? The TV shows, movies, books, traditions, ceremonies, national beliefs and so on?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 20 Oct 2019.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #103
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Can we be aware of the things we had hammered into our brains both in and out of school? And then move from there through-out our lives becoming acutely aware of those things that conditioned us?

You can try. But it's the past. Memories can be false, partly because they can be built to support a self rather than from what exactly happened.

Another approach is to watch when in conflict in the present, to see any attachment happening. As I posted previously in post #9:

Krishnamurti, Commentaries On Living, Series 2, Chapter 2 Conditioning:
Conflict exists when there is no integration between challenge and response. This conflict is the result of our conditioning. Conditioning is attachment: attachment to work, to tradition, to property, to people, to ideas, and so on. If there were no attachment, would there be conditioning? Of course not.

...

“How can one be free from conditioning?”

Only by understanding, being aware of our escapes. Our attachment to a person, to work, to an ideology, is the conditioning factor; this is the thing we have to understand, and not seek a better or more intelligent escape. All escapes are unintelligent, as they inevitably bring about conflict.

...

Freedom from conditioning comes with the freedom from thinking. When the mind is utterly still, only then is there freedom for the real to be.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 20 Oct 2019.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #104
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Attachment is key isn't it? The 'conditioning' we underwent was the attempt to 'attach' us to this or that person, ideal, religion, ism, etc.,...and what K. is saying is that any attempt to escape our conditioned state is futile. That is where there needs to be vigilance, I'd say, because we attempt to escape without realizing that we are doing so. And it is a strange moment to not escape but just be with yourself, as you are...

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #105
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
You can try. But it's the past.

Of course it's the past, idiot. All thinking/conditioning is the past. To understand conditioning you have to deal with the past and the influences of that past which conditioned the way we see the world.

We are all living in the past because we are our thinking. We don't exist psychologically without thinking. Listen, idiot, I don't have time or the inclination to educate you on conditioning/thinking and the past.

Dan, if we're going to discuss this then let's discuss this without constant interruptions of inane comments. OK?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 20 Oct 2019.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #106
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Dan, if we're going to discuss this then let's discuss this without constant interruptions of inane comments. OK?

I didn't see what was posted as an interruption Jack, it's all connected: conflict, attachment, identification, all a result of a conditioned brain.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #107
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Attachment is key isn't it?

Yes. When we see our attachment in the present, revealed in conflict, we touch our past conditioning. And the particular conditioning being discovered is relevant to the present situation. That's part of what K is saying in Commentaries On Living, isn't he?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 20 Oct 2019.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #108
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
And the particular conditioning being discovered is relevant to the present situation. That's part of what K is saying in Commentaries On Living, isn't he?

Isn't it our main conditioning, that we 'must' be attached somehow, somewhere always to (or against) something or someone? To not be attached, identified with, (or against) anything is 'un-thinkable' isn't it? But that is what K. is proposing, is he not, that our attachment is 'slavery', our identification with the 'known' is bondage, the 'self' (the 'I' "unit") is "evil"...'Thought' continues its relentless movement rather than face the 'void' it imagines there will be if it were to become silent, if it ceased to no longer strengthen the illusory 'self'. Fear of the unknown?

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #109
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Isn't it our main conditioning, that we 'must' be attached somehow, somewhere always to (or against) something or someone?

Yes, that is so interesting. And it meshes with K's secret: "I don't mind what happens." In other words, for K no attachment at all.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 20 Oct 2019.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #110
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

Say I live in the past. I am attached to my past. My education,my acquisitions,my family name and so on. I am okay with those attachments until I lose my wife or I lose my reputation and so on. Then I say that I need to detach myself from the worldly things because I want to escape the pain that I am experiencing . I go to gurus,or psychologists and so on and on.
Is there a way of life that attachments don't form in the first place. That is can the brain not register that which is not absolutly nesesary?

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #111
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Anyway, we're getting away from Jack Pine's idea of looking at his past and seeing what conditioning took place. To me, that's only going to strengthen the self and not free a person from conditioning. But I'm sure he doesn't want to talk with me about it and wants to talk with Dan McDermott about it.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #112
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Is there a way of life that attachments don't form in the first place.

I don't think there is a way of life since we can become 'attached' to anything it seems...it's the 'spice of life'. And it seems that to not be attached would be a very dull, very cold, lonely life. So attachment gives much pleasure, much comfort and security as well as pain but why talk about giving it up? I'd say the reason for that lies in the fact that the attachments are the work of the 'self'. It is the 'self', the 'me and mine' that craves these connections, The 'attachment' is there but is there any true relationship? Is the self capable of real relationship or are its reasons to be attached and identified, ones of fear of loneliness, possession, greed, etc? If the brain clearly saw the 'mistake' of being identified with anything, like with a poisonous snake, it wouldn't go there. But it obviously doesn't, it puts up with the pain to have the pleasure...So as K. I think is saying, running from ones attachments, conditionings, whatever they are, only strengthens them.

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #113
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Is there a way of life that attachments don't form in the first place. That is can the Brain not register that which is not absolutely necessary?

I corrected the spelling.
Dan didn't consider the whole question .
Why does the Brain register at all? My idea,My talent,My English ,My looks and so on and on? Always registering!
Is not registration part of our conditioning?, I am an English man ,I am an Arab and so on. Is that not a wastage of energy and time to register everything that happens during the day?

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Sun, 20 Oct 2019 #114
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Is that not a wastage of energy and time to register everything that happens during the day?

I'm not clear what it means for the 'brain to register'...does it mean to store into memory? If so why is it doing that? Is it some sort of self-protective action?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 20 Oct 2019.

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #115
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

"Is it possible to register only that which is absolutely necessary and not register anything else? Take a very simple thing: most of us have had physical pain of some sort or another; that pain is registered and the brain says, tomorrow, or a week later, I must be very careful not to have that pain again. Physical pain is distorting; you cannot think clearly when there is great pain. It is the function of the brain to register that pain so as to safeguard itself from doing things that will bring about pain. It must register and then there is the fear of that pain happening again later – that registration has caused fear. Is it possible, having had that pain, to end it, not carry it on, not carry it over? If so, then the brain has the security of being free and intelligent; but the moment the pain is carried over it is never free."

Part II - Chapter 8 - 4th Public Talk, Saanen - 17th July 1977 - ‘In negation the positive is

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #116
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1447 posts in this forum Offline

The next question is that why the Brain with all it's achievements in the technical world is hardly ever still? Could it be that we have over-activated the Brain due to the needs of our competitive society ?

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #117
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Thank you for your response to my post about the brain's part in all this. Rather than a neurologist's view on all this, I was interested in a layman approach. We both (all) have a brain(s) and it's pretty much the same one. We've always heard since childhood that only 10% percent of it is used. Did we ever ask "why" is that so? Why such a small amount? And why do these brains bring about such differences in each of us? Is it that they have become small conditioned 'boxes' and that brings about these differences? And without these 'boxes', these individual 'I's, this narrow, limited circuitry, would humanity have the possibility to not be all over the place: killing, cheating, torturing, grabbing, loving,helping etc.? Can we go into this as first-hand 'owners of these three organs: the reptilian, the animal, and the neo-cortex, (intellectual) brains? And leave the scientific work of the 'experts' out?

Hi Dan and Jack. I agree with both of you that this is a very interesting subject. We have the point about drugs such as psilocybin that can alter or expand one's consciousness. Given that the brain is such a delicate organ, there is certainly a risk involved in taking substances which have mind altering effects. Are there other ways in which we can expand our consciousness without running the risk of experiencing trauma? Many years ago I used to do Kundalini yoga. I found it very powerful in terms of the effect it had on the body and the mind. It seemed as if the physical stretching of the body also had the effect of stretching the mind in some way. I understand that Krishnamurti had a daily yoga routine. Did this help him to maintain the level of alertness and clarity that he displayed?

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #118
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
In the future I may devour a bag of Doritos or I may abstain from them. But in the moment there is clear seeing of the fact about something and there is change that is not apart from that seeing.

Hello idiot?. As far as I can see, here in the Doritos example, a high level of awareness acts as a kind of intelligence which guides action. It's like going too close to a cliff edge and intelligence automatically kicking in and telling you to get back. Whether it's transformation or choiceless awareness or whatever, a clarity of seeing what is actually going on around us seems to automatically guide action.

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #119
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Are there other ways in which we can expand our consciousness without running the risk of experiencing trauma?

I'm looking at this in myself Sean as not a matter of the "expansion" of consciousness which would be somehow improving it but seeing it as it is now in what you could call its limited state, with the pettiness, fears, anxiety, conflicts, etc. By not seeing how I am, the whole picture, I don't see how there could be a radical change. Without that 'totality', there could only be attempts to make myself more 'secure', more protected...Anyway that, wrong or right, is how I'm approaching this idea. So, I can't 'know' what radical change means but k.'s idea of 'negation' rather than 'inflation' say, seems right: a dissolving of the 'structure', the self-protective 'wall' that the brain has mistakenly assembled and fortifies in itself. Regarding exercise , I think stretching the muscles of the body to keep them supple is very important and I recall K. saying when asked about his daily yoga routine that that was his reason for doing it.

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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 #120
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I understand that Krishnamurti had a daily yoga routine. Did this help him to maintain the level of alertness and clarity that he displayed?

Sean, I don't know the answer to your question but I tend to doubt K's yoga practice had much to do with his level of alertness and clarity. He wasn't doing kundalini yoga but rather a yoga called Astanga yoga, known as the eight limbs of yoga. His instructor was BKS Iyengar. A man K referred to at least once as unduly arrogant.

From reading Mary Zimbalist's Memoires I gather that the yoga K did was part of his daily physical fitness regime which also included vigorous walks. Of course physical exercise can have a positive affect on your mental alertness.

The above information was taken from the afore mentioned Mary Z's Memoirs.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 21 Oct 2019.

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