Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Sun, 29 Sep 2019 #91
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
The following morning K starts to drone on asking what will bring about a radical transformation in the total consciousness of human beings.

Drone on? Really? If you find K boring why are you here and why do you listen to or read what he has to say?

But before you skip to the next morning which is Dialogue VI, the one directly following the one I referenced above you missed some very pertinent comments by K. Comments that may have helped you to understand your compound errors which are; believing K was positing something. Positing implies accepting something without really knowing if it is true or not. For K he lived what he spoke. It was a fact.

Here are some of the quotes in the last two pages of Dialogue V which you either skipped, didn't understand, or simply discarded because they don't support your opinions about K and idealism.

Shainberg (S): Let me turn it back. What happens with you when I say to you: Can it stop? (S is referring to having no images and having no ideals.

K:I say, of course. It is very simple to me. Of course it can stop. You don't ask me the next question: How do you do it? How does it come about?

S: ……….OK. Now how do you think it can stop? Let me put it to you straight--I have absolutely no evidence that it can, no experience that it can.

K: I don't want evidence.

S: You don't want any evidence?

K:I don't want somebody's explanation.

S: Or experience?

K: Because they are based on images. Future image, or past image or living image. So I say: Can it stop? I say it can. Definitely. It is not just a verbal statement to amuse you. To.me this is tremendously important.

Skipping down a couple of quotes K says this:

Fact. Not my reaction to it. Not romantic, fanciful theories of what it should not be. It is a fact that as long as there are images there is not going to be peace in the world, or love in the world-whether it be the Christ image, or the Buddha image or the Muslim image-you follow? There won't be peace in the world. Right. I see it as a fact. Right? I remain with that fact. Finished. This morning we said that if one remains with the fact there is a transformation. That is, not let thought interfere with the fact.

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Sun, 29 Sep 2019 #92
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

You can read the rest for yourself. Do you see what K is saying. It's not an ideal it is something now, real for him. Something not of thought and images, which are thought.

Jamie, if you are really interested in what K has to say you first have to see how your own conditioning is blocking you from understanding what is being said. This is true for all of us. Try dropping your conclusions, you opinions, your images and just listen to K without thought breaking in. Can you do that?

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Sun, 29 Sep 2019 #93
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:

Jack Pine wrote:

if you are really interested in what K has to say you first have to see how your own conditioning is blocking you from understanding what is being said.

Now, here's the thing. When I was sorting out my books for sale I came across a pamphlet from the early days published by the Star Publishing Trust.

Early Writings
Collection of J. Krishnamurti Early Writings, 1927, 1928 and 1929
Foreword to Early Writings

With the death of his brother Nityananda, on the 13th of December 1925, Jiddu Krishnamurti found himself in deep personal crisis, perhaps the most painful episode of his life. While in the throes of this great sorrow, he struggled to understand what he was going through. In fact, the death of Nitya appears to have been a decisive turning point in the spiritual evolution of Krishnamurti. Nitya's death served as a springboard for Krishnamurti, catapulting him towards his final liberation. By 1927, at the age of 31, his spiritual development is complete and the forceful and overwhelming impact of this recent mystical experience is visibly evident in the immediate years thereafter. It comes through in the language, vocabulary and style of this period.

Krishnamurti´s language in this early period was in flux and changed drastically from year to year. He introduced new modes of expressions - the Kingdom of Happiness, Liberation, Truth, Voice of Intuition and Individuality - that were soon dropped and replaced in turn. Indeed, Krishnamurti is purported to have categorized his talks and writings before 1933 as "patchy" and wished that the early writings are ignored. However a closer examination reveals that although his language was evolving, the essence of his teachings remained consistent from this period until his death. With remarkable rapidity and in direct response to misinterpretation and translation on the part of his audience, Krishnamurti began "cleansing" his words and so developed the lean, precise and contemporary language style that he became renowned for.

The early works not only shed light on the origins of the central, underlying concepts of the teachings but also reveal why he felt it necessary later to adopt his trademark, stark, non-compromising stance. However, if examined with the benefit of having read the later works, the emotive nature of these early works need not cover over the fundamental insights that Krishnamurti's teachings embody. On the contrary, if we are wary of the inherent danger of misinterpretation, this material affords a rare glimpse into a mind that has only just discovered the “Kingdom of Happiness”.

In these early stages Krishnamurti spontaneously describes what he is experiencing and attempts to communicate the kind of mind required to achieve this state of "true happiness". He uses words in a natural and "innocent" fashion as he is yet to discover the important role his choice of words will play. The value of these early works lies in this “impassioned” delivery. Most importantly they open up the "hidden how" that Krishnamurti so deliberately ensconced in the teachings later on.

Certain terms in the early works seem to be at first diametrically opposed to the fundamentals of the teachings as we know them today. Specifically, Krishnamurti spoke then of the importance of having "pure desire", absolute certainty, true memory - all the while emphasizing that one’s “efforts” have to be based on understanding rather than on conviction or agreement. All in all, the early writings provide a vital clue in solving one of the basic conundrums of the teachings - namely, how it is that, "out of total inaction, there is an action that is tremendously positive, but not in the sense of the positive and the negative

P.s.: Jack, Jamie and all interested: Take also this into account.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sun, 29 Sep 2019 #94
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

"At the Feet of the Master is a book attributed to Jiddu Krishnamurti, authored when he was fourteen years old. Written under the name Alcyone, it was first published in 1910. The work was closely related to the so-called World Teacher Project, a contemporary messianic endeavor launched by the Theosophical Society." Wikipedia
Originally published: December 1910

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Sun, 29 Sep 2019 #95
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

K negated his early works. He later spoke against masters and authorities.

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Mon, 30 Sep 2019 #96
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
K negated his early works. He later spoke against masters and authorities.

What then is the reason to quote him here, that shows contradiction !

Everything is moving, so is his use of words,
but Is it essentially meaning something else ?

Our ancestors language is also no longer ours,
but we can still penetrate what they tried to communicate.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 30 Sep 2019 #97
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
that shows contradiction !

life is contradiction and pain. The problem starts when we condemn life.

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Tue, 01 Oct 2019 #98
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
life is contradiction and pain.

one-liners without any context is like a mantra without any meaning!

such as the global hit: "We are the world" only wasted words!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Tue, 01 Oct 2019 #99
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
One Self wrote:

"life is contradiction and pain."

wim:one-liners without any context is like a mantra without any meaning!

Does it give you pleasure to throw around your judgment without understanding and examination? Is that not in contradiction to the teachings of Krishnamurti? Are you not in conflict with English language? Don't you make constant assertions and judgments without understanding and examination? Are you not living in conflict with others? Is that enough context for you to understand? Can anybody make you understand English? No.

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Tue, 01 Oct 2019 #100
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
to throw around your judgment without understanding and examination? ...? .....? Etc...

It is not strange to me that you are the only one who complains about my capability of (understanding and use of language.

perhaps you should become aware of your own limitations.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 01 Oct 2019.

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Tue, 01 Oct 2019 #101
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Does it give you pleasure to throw around your judgment without understanding and examination? Is that not in contradiction to the teachings of Krishnamurti? Are you not in conflict with English language? Don't you make constant assertions and judgments without understanding and examination? Are you not living in conflict with others? Is that enough context for you to understand? Can anybody make you understand English? No.

The answer to all of the above questions is a resounding NO! I completely agree with Wim on your pointless and mostly irrelevant "one liners". So, too, do a few others.

Your posts are more like rules to live by: Hard and fast and unchanging instead of expressing a real understanding.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 01 Oct 2019.

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Tue, 01 Oct 2019 #102
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

One Self. We have had a fairly long standing and often acrimonious exchange on this forum. I am no longer interested in continuing that kind of relationship. I am completely open to changing our relationship to one that is more understanding of each other. For my own part I am through with insults and all other types of harangues.

Do you understand that I am not blaming you alone for anything? We were both responsible for the insults and gross misunderstandings of each other in the past. And we are both responsible for changing that behavior now. We can't do anything about the past but we can change how we post now.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 01 Oct 2019.

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Tue, 01 Oct 2019 #103
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
One Self wrote:

to throw around your judgment without understanding and examination? ...? .....? Etc...

Do you think that understanding comes from dissecting paragraphs? Or understanding is whole? Can you understand when there is the intention to retaliate for something that happened yesterday? Don't we all live in the past? and is there any freedom from the past? why is the past such a living and dominant factor in our life?
These are the questions and yet you prefer dissecting my paragraphs and making judgements and comparisons. Why is it So? Contradiction?
I don't know the answer to the above questions but I can ask those questions from oneself. Why has thought become so important, why do we live in the past?

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #104
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Don't we all live in the past? and is there any freedom from the past? why is the past such a living and dominant factor in our life?

and these are all borrowed words - or have they been stolen ? - from someone from the past and the same person blames others for living in the past.

Wake up, man, and don't always go for the pot to blame the kettle for turning black.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #105
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
and these are all borrowed words - or have they been stolen ?

Wim, what do you think about death? Is it real or is it an idea? What happens to the ego ? Do you believe in afterlife ?
I rather discuss these with you. Forget the so called stolen words and blaming and all those things. No one gets it.
I tell you what I think about death. It ends the bitterness and antagonism . To me death is God.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #106
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

To me death is even above God . It wipes clean the Earth from the old and degenerating minds. Without it nothing would be able to live on the earth. They would own all the money and the lands .

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #107
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

So karma is in this world because of the existance of death . If you want to speak evil then you have invited death under your skin.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #108
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

By the way ,I asked wim something and Jack pine(as always ) has to proove to his friends that he read krishnamurti! Now the answer of wim is going to be influenced by Jack's interceptions. So it is totally useless. Forget it wim.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #109
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

That is why chat rooms are the best . People intercept out of bordom and turn every thing into boredom here .
Chat room is alive. But people create problem there too. For example Sa Sanhigi the friend of Eric is always on the Chat room. Seven days a week . As an imovable observer who judges every thing that is said and reports it to eric .(talking about the other k -forum.) So anywhere you go anything you do there is always some people who create problems in that field.
There is a saying that one man throws a stone in a well that hundred men cannot undo. That is what is happening in here I think.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #110
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

It seems that Jack deleted his krishnamurti version of God!

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #111
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
By the way ,I asked wim something and Jack pine(as always ) has to proove to his friends that he read krishnamurti! Now the answer of wim is going to be influenced by Jack's interceptions.

You are free to have the most fantastic ideas.

I am very capable and free enough to be influenced neither by you nor by Jack, and very capable of my own perceptions.

such as your so-called anonymous identity. It is as transparent as the clothing of the narcissistic emperor, showing a completely naked working ego!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #112
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
You are free to have the most fantastic ideas.

You can call them "fantastic" which, of course, they are. But are they even rational?

One Self wrote:
To me death is even above God . It wipes clean the Earth from the old and degenerating minds. Without it nothing would be able to live on the earth. They would own all the money and the lands .

Things, obviously, don't work this way. Death and life are inseparable. Death doesn't occur just to human consciousness to eliminate "old and degenerating minds". You may have missed the part where there aren't individual minds. We share a consciousness. That consciousness, which includes the things you pointed out, doesn't end when one or a few people end. Your beliefs are completely without reason or fact.

Everything dies. Even planets, solar systems and maybe even the Universe itself. If it had a beginning, as astronomers believe, based on facts, then it will have an end. And "god" is a belief, a conditioning all of us experienced throughout life. It doesn't exist beyond thought.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #113
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
It is as transparent as the clothing of the narcissistic emperor, showing a completely naked working ego!

Apparently you are already influenced by something..! You never made any sense to me other than condemning. I can understand that you are poor intellectually. The only thing that you and jack can do is to condemn that which you can't relate to . And of coarse always agree with each other mechanically. How low is that? Your hate for English langrage is very obvious. Are you a nationalist?

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #114
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

This constant comparison and condemnation that wim writes must be coming from nationalism or race. It surely has nothing to do with understanding or close examination.
Hopefully he stops giving bad vibes in here any more (If his ego lets him:).

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #115
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Apparently you are already influenced by something..!

Aren't we all ?

One Self wrote:
You never made any sense to me other than condemning. I can understand that you are poor intellectually.

Another example of condemning others, like a mirror of your own doing !

One Self wrote:
Your hate for English langrage is very obvious.

I'm an autoditact on this, nothing to be ashamed of, in international contacts they appeared to have no problem with the way I'm using it, so to me it seems another false conclusion on your part.

One Self wrote:
Are you a nationalist?

I'm in love with the earth and all what's living on it, no specific parts !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #116
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, you are free to do as you wish, of course. Personally, I find the poster using the name "One Self" to be irrational and well as not very intelligent. Why continue to respond to his illogical and ridiculous posts?

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #117
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Why continue to respond to his illogical and ridiculous posts?

More condemnation and comparisons. Thought never gives up!

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #118
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
One Self wrote:

You never made any sense to me other than condemning. I can understand that you are poor intellectually.

wim: Another example of condemning others, like a mirror of your own doing !

Is that so? If you are you not intellectually poor you would not needed Jack or anybody else's support.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #119
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Is that so? If you are you not intellectually poor you would not needed Jack or anybody else's support.

You are constantly presenting illogical, unfounded and mean-spirited arguments. They are really stupid. Almost anyone can pick them apart. You have single handedly destroyed this part of the Krishnamurti Forum. Isn't that enough? Stop.

As an example of what I wrote above you think "death" is here to remove people who think the way you don't like or approve of. You have such a narrow view of life and you seem so full of hate and anger. Have you considered discussing your anger with a professional who may be able to help you?

Another example out of so many: You accused Wim of being of hating the English language. What is wrong with you? What examples did you have to come up with all of these fantastic conclusions you are constantly coming up with? And you criticize Wim for not having good English? Your grammar mistakes and misspellings point to you as the one who doesn't know good English? Wim's English is excellent.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 02 Oct 2019.

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Wed, 02 Oct 2019 #120
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
You have single handedly destroyed this part of the Krishnamurti Forum. Isn't that enough? Stop.

Look who is talking. You surely remind me of trump.
Your psychological writings are worth shit.

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