Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Meetups in Brussels


Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 173 in total
Mon, 16 Sep 2019 #31
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

"To have united thought, and so action, there must be agreement, accord, and to have agreement seems to be very difficult. Agreement does not mean thoughtless acceptance or tolerance, for tolerance is superficial. Agreement demands deep intelligence and requires a mind that is very pliable. In this world, apparently, one is more easily convinced by foolishness than by thought that is integral and intelligent. There is an emotional agreement which is not agreement at all. It is merely an excitement which carries one on to certain activities, attitudes and assertions, but does not lead to the full, intelligent awakening of individual fulfilment."

Ojai 3rd Talk in the Oak Grove 19th April, 1936

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Mon, 16 Sep 2019 #32
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Unless there is agreement as above K quote explains we end up destroying each others as we have been until now.
As I said only fools argue over facts. They first make an idea of the fact and argue over that silly idea.
A man who denies facts is called an idealist. And idealists are the most destructive people on the earth.

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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 #33
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

One Self Quoting K. wrote:
"To have united thought, and so action, there must be agreement, accord, and to have agreement seems to be very difficult.

Ojai 3rd Talk in the Oak Grove 19th April, 1936

so you see once again that every word must be viewed in its full context.
It is clear that in # 23 reference is made to 'agreement' in the ordinary sense and that Krishnaji makes clear that this is in fact not an 'agreement' at all.

you could also state that there is a common wordless agreement about the importance of "The Teaching", but this is lost in the wording of it through individual interpretation.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 17 Sep 2019.

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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 #34
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
The facts suggest that without the authority of a moderator this site goes to ... blah blah blah .

The fact is that a mind that demands authority can never finds the truth or happiness.

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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 #35
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
*As I said only fools argue over facts.

One Self wrote:

They first make an idea of the fact and argue over that silly idea.

One Self wrote:

A man who denies facts is called an idealist.

One Self wrote:

And idealists are the most destructive people on the earth.*

Are the above quotes "facts" or are they just opinions? And if they are "facts" are we then "fools" if we don't agree with them?

These above quotes seem like a lot of angry opinions rather than facts.

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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 #36
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
There is an emotional agreement which is not agreement at all. It is merely an excitement which carries one on to certain activities, attitudes and assertions, but does not lead to the full, intelligent awakening of individual fulfilment."

Ojai 3rd Talk in the Oak Grove 19th April, 1936

Are not your assertion of "facts" quoted by you above aligned with what K said above in this post? Why not drop the anger and the opinions and discuss rather than proclaim?

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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 #37
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

There is no point discussing things with a mind that seeks disagreement all the time.
Such a mind lives in conflict .(it is like pumping water to a dead tree)

This post was last updated by One Self Tue, 17 Sep 2019.

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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 #38
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
There is no point discussing things with a mind that seeks disagreement all the time.
Such a mind lives in conflict .(it is like pumping water to a dead tree)

I assume you are referring to your own mind above. How can you know the mind of someone you have never met?

I agree with one thing you wrote. There is no point discussing things that you have made into ideals. You do see that you have idealized "facts" and "disagreement" don't you?

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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 #39
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Apparently jack has nothing to say except repeating after me:)

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #40
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

No I'm not repeating after you at all. I'm asking you to explain your shallow, idealistic statements. And I'm asking why you seem to be so angry all of the time? Also, I'm asking why you have idealized the concepts of "facts" and "disagreements"?

Instead of seeing what K was pointing out with his statements about facts and disagreement you have misunderstood and narrowed what K pointed out and weaponized these words because, apparently, you don't have anything constructive to put on this forum.

You give one the feeling that you just want your name to appear on here and you don't care how meaningless your statements are.

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #41
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 882 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Throughout his life, Krishnamurti asserts that the rejection of all authority - religious, spiritual and moral - frees the mind and awakens intelligence but the facts do not bear this out. The facts suggest that without the authority of a moderator, this forum descends into chaos. The facts are laid out in front of us and are not an idea.

Hi Jamie. I think the rejection of religious, spiritual and moral authority is a very different thing to the authority of a moderator on an online forum. We don't need Krishnamurti to advise us on how to run online forums as this is surely a matter of common sense. This forum doesn't appear to have an active moderator at the moment and sometimes, or perhaps frequently, the guidelines are not observed. Does this mean it has descended into chaos? No, I wouldn't say that. I have read your post carefully and responded to the points you made. You can respond to me and we can debate this point and others are free to join in. Your post opens up the wider question of the rejection of authority which we could go into.

We often have interesting discussions on this forum despite the guideline violations. If discussions get side-tracked by posts which distract because of their tone or content we can still keep focused on the point which is being talked about. Surely we can at least contribute to establishing order in a chaotic forum or world.

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #42
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 882 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
I think they are exactly the same thing and I think the rejection of both is exactly the same thing. It is the only revolution - a complete and utter rejection of any authority.

I don't understand you here. Are you saying it's important to reject the authority of a moderator on an online forum? That makes no sense to me. When you join a forum there are usually a set of guidelines which you agree to respect.

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #43
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1450 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
When you join a forum there are usually a set of guidelines which you agree to respect.

The 'authority' that K. was speaking about was the one that said "this is the method to be free of the known". Do this, read this, listen to this, follow what I say, etc. and that will 'set you free'... He wasn't speaking about the 'authority' of the air traffic controller or the traffic cop or a forum moderator, was he?

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #44
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 882 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The 'authority' that K. was speaking about was the one that said "this is the method to be free of the known". Do this, read this, listen to this, follow what I say, etc. and that will 'set you free'... He wasn't speaking about the 'authority' of the air traffic controller or the traffic cop or a forum moderator, was he?

Hi Dan. I don't think that K would advocate rebelling against Dev or Clive, would he? :)

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Wed, 18 Sep 2019.

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #45
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1450 posts in this forum Offline

As I'm seeing it, the most insidious 'authority' is oneself when I say "I know" in regards to the 'truth'...what I 'know' is the past and the past is not the 'truth'. The truth is , must, always be the immediate present, mustn't it?

Regarding the other forms of 'authorities' like the traffic controller, forum moderator, etc, maybe a more accurate way to see them would be as 'flow facilitators'? They are tasked with trying to keep things from 'bumping' into one another?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 18 Sep 2019.

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #46
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 882 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
As I'm seeing it, the most insidious 'authority' is oneself when I say "I know" in regards to the 'truth'...what I 'know' is the past and the past is not the 'truth'. The truth is , must, always be the immediate present, mustn't it?

That's a very good point.

Dan McDermott wrote:
Regarding the other forms of 'authorities' like the traffic controller, forum moderator, etc, maybe a more accurate way to see them would be as 'flow facilitators'? They are tasked with trying to keep things from 'bumping' into one another?

Yes, that would seem a sensible way of putting it.

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #47
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
l think they are exactly the same thing and I think the rejection of both is exactly the same thing. It is the only revolution - a complete and utter rejection of any authority. Otherwise you cherrypick which laws you want and which you don't and to do this you need politicians. To enforce the laws you want you need policemen and that is the role of the moderator.

I agree with the above statement. As krishnamurti said all authorities are evil. A good society doesn't have a prison to put people in There for thinking differently. Plus krishnamurti never had a guideline in his many gatherings.

We have one problem in here and that is misreading what one writes . If it is intentional then it is a mental illness.
There is nothing one can do to a mentally ill person who intentionally twists what one writes according to his past.

And there is a moderator in the krishnamurti network. Before he became a moderator he was relatively kind but after he became the moderator he completely changed. He started to gang up with sanhiji. She became his snitch(a person who hardly undrestands who krishnamurti represented). It is very ugly there. No new thought ,only those who flatter him!
I suggest if there is going to be a moderator in here it needs to be changed from time to time and no one man permanently govern this site like some totalitarian leader so that the evil thing doesn't happen happen in here.
Idiot is no longer active in here due to just what I explained, Intentional misinterpretation ! He tries to do the same with me but I am not kind like idiot:)

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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 #48
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

We(human beings ) are being destroid by the authority of religions. The problem is not the religions, the problem is fear that demands authority . Fear is indeed a very complex thing to understand. Because fear always goes with authority. And authority prevents the very flowering of the mind.

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #49
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
he fact is that Krishnamurti was an idealist.

No K wasn't an idealist. For him what he talked about was real. He lived it. This is not my opinion but what anyone can read for themselves in countless dialogues of K speaking.

Furthermore, it seems clear that K was in the present. The past is dead and the future is just an idea, a belief.

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #50
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Reading Krishnamurti I get a sense that he disliked people hiding behind a thin veneer of respectability whilst expecting others to do their dirty work. "You are part of all this." he would say. So let's get your hands dirty. Let's make you forum moderator for the day and ask you if you are going to ban One Self or not? And if not, then why not?

I am curious, why 'oneself' and not 'your self'!?

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #51
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Are we not supposed to think universally instead of individually?

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #52
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 882 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Reading Krishnamurti I get a sense that he disliked people hiding behind a thin veneer of respectability whilst expecting others to do their dirty work. "You are part of all this." he would say. So let's get your hands dirty. Let's make you forum moderator for the day and ask you if you are going to ban One Self or not? And if not, then why not?

Hello Jamie. Well, I wouldn't consider the work of a moderator on an online forum as "dirty work", but I do agree that "you are part of all this". If this forum has indeed "descended into chaos" then you are responsible for that. If someone crosses a red line then call it out and challenge the poster rather than remain silent. Thanks for the offer of the post of moderator for a day but you can't decide on that. A skillful moderator can only refer a poster who is causing problems to the guidelines, give fair warning and if necessary impose a ban. I don't know about people "hiding behind a thin veneer of respectability". It doesn't sound very dignified. Are you respectable? Do you respect yourself? These are worthwhile questions to ask I would say.

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #53
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Jack Pine wrote:
No K wasn't an idealist.

Jamie wrote:

I take your point but neither was he a nihilist. That is pretty clear.

Jamie, my point was, and I think it's something most of us can agree on, that K was in the present. Thought is of time; past and future. But what K pointed out was real, in the present, for him and not an idea or a future possibility. I hope I'm being clear.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 19 Sep 2019.

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #54
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 882 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Isn't that confrontational? Can nothing be done silently about a chaotic world?

Anybody can point out that a particular post is offensive, rude or aggressive. It's important not to attack the poster personally - just because he is offensive one day doesn't mean he is always offensive. I don't know if anything can be done silently about a chaotic world. What is your opinion Jamie?

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #55
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

i•de•al•ist (a??di ? l?st)

n.
1. a person who cherishes or pursues high or noble principles, purposes, or goals.
2. a visionary or impractical person.
3. a person who represents things as they might or should be rather than as they are.
4. artist who treats subjects imaginatively.
5. an adherent of the doctrines of idealism.
adj.
6. idealistic.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #56
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

May be if we stick to the common universal meaning of the words then we would have more learning in here. But of course we can't because then we would not have very many things to say:)

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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 #57
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
May be if we stick to the common universal meaning of the words then we would have more learning in here. But of course we can't because then we would not have very many things to say:)

Whatever it is you're trying to say is not clear. Your definition of "idealist" is what most or all of us already know. Nothing has changed.

Obviously K wasn't an idealist.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 19 Sep 2019.

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Fri, 20 Sep 2019 #58
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

It is known that Krishnamurti referred to the dictionary frequently but us people(who know every thing ) are against the dictionary and pro our selves! So we are essentially stuck and there is no learning. Which means that we are dead human beings who can't learn anything new.

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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 #59
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5742 posts in this forum Offline

What are you talking about? Who is against the dictionary?

Is there any point to your ongoing cynical, angry irrelevant posts? You seem to have so many opinions about nearly everything. Look at yourself first and understand that before you continue to judge others whom you don't even know.

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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 #60
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1417 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Is there any point to my ongoing cynical, angry irrelevant posts? I seem to have so many opinions about nearly everything.

Expose yourself, we can't wait:)

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