Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The Future Of Humanity


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Sat, 29 Jun 2019 #241
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
it is up to you to understand and not blame others for their imperfection annd/ or lack of understanding this is only nonsense talk.

Do as you preach.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #242
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

For those interested in discussing Krishnamurti and the Future of Humanity:

Sometimes K teaching introduces a oneness where the average person on the street sees a separation. For example, I have been questioning: There is one consciousness of mankind and separate consciousnesses are an illusion. Many of you have been kind to share your understanding and help me with my stumbling block. I appreciate our looking together at this, although I still feel some question mark about it.

Other K teachings, which may be more or less the same thing, that introduce a oneness that counters what the average person's understanding are:

You are the world.

The observer is the observed.

Consciousness is its content.

The stream (in the video that Ken brought in).

All of these bring a oneness to what many see as separate. It's no accident that these can be points of confusion for people, as they take in what K says, and as they wrestle with how far the oneness actually goes.

Now we're going to look at a separation that K makes that goes against a common sense oneness, or at least a common sense connectedness.

The Future of Humanity:

JK: Now let's proceed from there. Shouldn't we first distinguish between the brain and the mind?

DB: Yes, well that distinction has been made and it is not clear. Now of course there are several views. One view is say that the mind is just a function of the brain - that is the materialists' view. There is another view which says mind and brain are two different things.

JK: Yes, I think they are two different things.

...

JK: I think the mind is separate from the brain.

DB: Well what does it mean separate? That is it is in contact.

JK: Separate in the sense the brain is conditioned and the mind is not.

...

JK: As long as one's brain, or the brain is conditioned, it is not free.

DB: Yes.

JK: And the mind is free.

Most of us feel there is a physical brain and a mind that goes with it. The materialist, as DB says, thinks that the mind is a function of the brain. K is saying that the brain and mind are separate. K is saying that the brain is conditioned and the mind is free of conditioning. That is a radical distinction! Perhaps we can investigate this together: What is K really saying here? Is it true? If so, how is it true?

Please read from about page 118 of The Future of Humanity, which you can find here: https://selfdefinition.org/krishnamurti/Jiddu_K...

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #243
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K is saying that the brain is conditioned and the mind is free of conditioning. That is a radical distinction!

Why can't you just look at this without labeling it? Maybe it only seems like a radical distinction because it clashes with your conditioned beliefs of what the brain and mind are.

idiot ? wrote:
Perhaps we can investigate this together:

How are you going to investigate what K says "together"? Are you going to take a vote and the majority opinion is the one you accept?

idiot ? wrote:
What is K really saying here?

It seems very clear what K is saying. How are you and your conditioned thought process going to make it any clearer?

idiot ? wrote:
Is it true? If so, how is it true?

Once again, how are you going to find out if it's "true" or not. By thinking about it?

idiot ? wrote:
If so, how is it true?

"How true is it?" Does truth come in degrees? Can something be 62% true? Or is it simply true or not true? You have already managed to fragment truth with this question by suggesting there are different levels or degrees of truth.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #244
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

An interesting aside to this brain/mind dichotomy is K's history. K, as a boy, was "vacant." Then the job of the Theosophical Society's elite was to prepare a "vehicle" for the world teacher. In other words, there had to be an emptying of the vehicle so that something could be poured in. What would be poured in? Maitreya? The Master? Truth? God?

And then this emptying process becomes a central part of K teaching. You must empty out conditioning, thought, the past. Only then is there the possibility of being filled with the other, the benediction, the mind that is free.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #245
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

The Future of Humanity:

DB: Now one could ask a question: what is the nature of the mind? For example I could ask is the mind located inside the body, or is it in the brain?

JK: No, it is nothing to do with the body or the brain.

DB: Has it to do with space or time?

JK: Space - just a minute - space - now wait a minute. It has to do with space and silence.

"The mind" as K is using the word has nothing to do with the body or brain. This mind K is talking about is not in the body or the brain. One might conclude that it is therefore outside. But K does not say that. We shouldn't jump to the conclusion that the mind is outside any more than that it is inside.

He says it's connected to space and silence. Again, K seems to be bringing his direct experience of the non-verbal into verbalization.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #246
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

K clearly makes a distinction between the brain and the mind in the Future of Humanity. And as I said in post #243, this seems to be a departure from onenesses he expresses elsewhere. (Note that when we refer to post numbers in a thread, these can change when someone deletes an earlier post.)

Luckily, DB brings this up:

The Future of Humanity:

JK: And choice implies a duality.

DB: Yes but now it seems at first sight we have another duality which you have introduced, which is the mind and the brain.

JK: No, that is not a duality.

DB: That is important to get clear.

JK: That is not a duality.

DB: Yes, what is the difference?

And then, unfortunately they get sidetracked into how thought creates a duality between the ideal and the actual.

Sure. But what about K's duality between the brain and the mind?

This seems not to be a duality for K because in the case of the person who has completely cleared out all conditioning from the brain, the mind can use the brain. That is, the clear, silent openness, or space, which is what the mind is, can use the thinking brain for communication, practicality, and so on. But in those of us caught in the conditioned brain, the mind seems to be something apart that we cannot reach. So for the conditioned brain, there is a duality. For the unconditioned, there is not. That is my interpretation and, of course, yours may differ.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #247
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Here is some further conversation where DB asks, like I do, aren't there individual experiences that I have and you don't? And K insists no!

The Future of Humanity:

DB: Yes, well whatever is going on inside I feel is mine and it is very different from what is going on inside somebody else.

JK: No, I question whether it is different.

DB: At least it seems different.

JK: Yes. I question whether it is different, what is going on inside me as a human being and you as another human being, we both go through all kinds of problems, suffering, fear, anxiety, loneliness, suffer, and so on and so on. We have our dogmas, beliefs, superstitions, and everybody has this.

DB: Well we can say it is all very similar but it seems as if each one of us is isolated from the other.

JK: By thought. My thought has created that I am different from you, because my body is different from you, my face is different from you, so we carry that same - we extend that same thing into the psychological area.

DB: We have discussed that. But now if we said all right that division is an illusion perhaps.

JK: No, not perhaps, it is.

DB: It is an illusion, all right. Although it is not obvious when a person first looks at it.

JK: Of course, of course.

DB: Now then, we say mind - in reality even brain is not divided because we are saying that we are all not only basically similar but really connected - right? And then we say that beyond all that is mind which has no division at all.

JK: It is unconditioned.

DB: Yes, it would almost seem to imply then that in so far as a person feels he is a separate being he has very little contact with mind - right?

JK: Quite right. That is what we said.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #248
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Then the question, as always, is how can we get out of this mess? We see we're conditioned and in conflict. We see the insanity of it. What can be done?

The Future of Humanity:

JK: Let's see. You are asking a question whether the mind can be perceived by the brain.

DB: Or at least somehow be aware, an awareness, a sense.

JK: Yes. We are saying yes, through meditation.

As I said earlier in this thread, real meditation is vital. It takes K teaching from the theoretical to the embodied, to deeply feeling it in the bones.

Naturally, after bringing in meditation, K has to go a bit into what real meditation is not.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #249
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Also, in the long video that we discussed earlier, K seemed to refuse to answer where intelligence comes from. Here, he says:

The Future of Humanity:

DB: Now essentially what you are asking is that the brain should really be responding to the mind.

JK: That it can only respond if it is free from the limited - from the thought which is limited.

DB: Yes so the programme does not dominate it. You see we are going to still need that programme.

JK: Of course. We need it for...

DB: ...for many things. Yes but the intelligence - is intelligence from the mind then?

JK: Yes, intelligence is the mind.

DB: Is the mind.

And as they discussed earlier, the mind is not in the body or the brain. It is has to do with space, silence.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #250
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

There is no problem duality between brain and mind. K often spoke of the limited the conditioned and the limitless. The known and the unknown. This is nothing new. The brain, with it's thought is the known and the mind is the unknown. As they both agree in the book only when thought ends is there the mind. So thinking about it, talking about is not going to get you any closer to the mind.

Instead of trying to dissect the book paragraph by paragraph, page by page why not read the whole book first? Read it a couple of times if you have to. Take what is being said by the dialogues between K and DB as a whole. Not a series of little fragments.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #251
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K seemed to refuse to answer where intelligence comes from.

No K didn't refuse to answer where intelligence comes from. He says where it's from right here. I took this directly from what you quoted.

idiot ? wrote:
DB: ...for many things. Yes but the intelligence - is intelligence from the mind then?

JK: Yes, intelligence is the mind.

DB: Is the mind.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #252
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
No K didn't refuse to answer where intelligence comes from. He says where it's from right here.

Jack Pine, as I said before, I can't take the time to correct your frequent errors and restatements of things already said. I said in the video K didn't go into where intelligence comes from. In the Future of Humanity, he does. So you're just restating my point, in trying to criticize me.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #253
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
As they both agree in the book only when thought ends is there the mind. So thinking about it, talking about is not going to get you any closer to the mind.

Hello Jack and all from a very hot part of Spain. Many countries in Europe have been experiencing a severe heatwave over the past few days with temperatures over 40 º centigrade (104º fahrenheit). Thankfully it seems to be coming to an end with today being a little cooler.

Anyway, the central question here seems to be if talking about the brain and the mind here will clarify things and deepen our understanding. Is there an opportunity for this to happen here?

idiot ? wrote:
But in those of us caught in the conditioned brain, the mind seems to be something apart that we cannot reach.

I see this as an accurate description of where we are just now. The meditation Krishnamurti talks of seems to be connected with the emptying of the brain through constant awareness. That's how I understand it. Will this discussion in any way lead to higher levels of attention and awareness?

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #254
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Will this discussion in any way lead to higher levels of attention and awareness?

Well, we have to be careful with "becoming" and "psychological evolution." We think we can become gradually more aware, but K seems to suggest otherwise.

But yes, Sean Hen, your point is well taken. If we are not pointing to attention/awareness then it can be a lot of useless jabber, yes?

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #255
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

The Future of Humanity:
JK: You see how do you - I have often thought about it - how do you convey to all this rather subtle and very complex issue, how do you convey all this to a person who is steeped in tradition, who is conditioned and won't even take time to listen, to consider?

K says here that these matters are "rather subtle and very complex." If we are convinced that they are obvious and unworthy of going into carefully, perhaps we need to reconsider.

Clearly it is easy to be convinced that you understand K and others do not. It seems to me that on the contrary, we all understand and do not understand. There can be quite a bit of nuance. And we can help each other explore that, yes? And that is the point of this forum, yes?

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #256
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
But in those of us caught in the conditioned brain, the mind seems to be something apart that we cannot reach.

I see this as an accurate description of where we are just now.

I see it as a confused statement. One suggesting that there is goal to somehow attain the mind. There are both the brain which is conditioned, which is thought, which is limited and then there is the mind, the unknown, which cannot be touched by the brain, the known. But the mind can touch the brain, the known. We need the brain, we need thought in order to live. The mind is the source of intelligence, according to K. When we die the brain, with all of it's knowledge and experience, dies. The mind, the unknown, does not die. It is not your mind or my mind. It is just mind. K and Mary Z were talking about this right before he died. I read this in the book: THE OPEN DOOR by Mary Lutyens. I can't be more specific than that. I think K also says this in the FUTURE OF HUMANITY.

Sean Hen wrote:
The meditation Krishnamurti talks of seems to be connected with the emptying of the brain through constant awareness. That's how I understand it.

This is pretty much how I understand it too.

Sean Hen wrote:

Will this discussion in any way lead to higher levels of attention and awareness?

I don't know will it? I could give you my opinion but opinions aren't worth too much.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #257
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Well, we have to be careful with "becoming" and "psychological evolution." We think we can become gradually more aware, but K seems to suggest otherwise.

But yes, Sean Hen, your point is well taken. If we are not pointing to attention/awareness then it can be a lot of useless jabber, yes?

Hello idiot? Yes, we do have to be careful with "becoming" and "psychological evolution". I don't know about the "useless jabber". I do appreciate all the effort you're putting in to this thread and I find a lot of it very interesting.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #258
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The mind, the unknown, does not die. It is not your mind or my mind. It is just mind.

And important to realize that thought is not 'your' thought or 'my' thought, it is just thought.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #259
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti said that the mind is the only thing that we have. Thought is obviously contradictory and limited . Beside the technological area thought is useless and causes more resistance and strengthens the ego. Some people have no mind(like the communists) and are all thought therefore useless and corrupt. That is why one can't talk about these things with them. I say there are two types of people in the world. The mindless and the mindful. Trying to have a conversation with the mindless is a wastage of energy and time.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #260
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
And important to realize that thought is not 'your' thought or 'my' thought, it is just thought.

Thought is based on experience and knowledge. The point I was trying to make is that the experience and knowledge we have individually does not remain when we, our body and brain, die. For example, my personal experience as a rifleman in Vietnam will not live on after I'm dead. My experience living with my wife...the same thing, dies with me. She has her own take, feeling with regard to the experience of our relationship.

We all accumulate knowledge and experiences. Not the same ones but we all do experience things which we record in memory and we all accumulate knowledge. My experiences aren't necessarily your experiences. My knowledge, like yours and everyone else's is of many things. But my knowledge of geology, for example, as a geologist is different from your knowledge of geology even if you, too, happen to be a geologist. It's just that we all experience and accumulate knowledge. Obviously, that's correct. Is that what you are trying to say? Actually, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Maybe you could help me with that.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #261
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
We all accumulate knowledge and experiences. Not the same ones but we all do experience and accumulate knowledge. My experiences aren't necessarily your experiences. My knowledge, like yours and everyone else's is of many things. But my knowledge geology, for example, as a geologist is different from your knowledge of geology even if you, too, happen to be a geologist. It's just that we all experience and accumulate knowledge. Obviously, that's correct. Is that what you are trying to say? Actually, I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make. Maybe you could help me with that.

Thanks for asking Jack. K. had mentioned it in one of the quotes that had been posted. It was here:

The Future of Humanity:
DB: Yes, well whatever is going on inside I feel is mine and it is very different from what is going on inside somebody else.
JK: No, I question whether it is different.
DB: At least it seems different.
JK: Yes. I question whether it is different, what is going on inside me as a human being and you as another human being, we both go through all kinds of problems, suffering, fear, anxiety, loneliness, suffer, and so on and so on. We have our dogmas, beliefs, superstitions, and everybody has this.
DB: Well we can say it is all very similar but it seems as if each one of us is isolated from the other.
JK: By thought. My thought has created that I am different from you, because my body is different from you, my face is different from you, so we carry that same - we extend that same thing into the psychological area.
DB: We have discussed that. But now if we said all right that division is an illusion perhaps.
JK: No, not perhaps, it is.
DB: It is an illusion, all right. Although it is not obvious when a person first looks at it.
JK: Of course, of course.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Mon, 01 Jul 2019 #262
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

If there is so much confusion over what krishnamurti has said imagine how much confusion is when you say something in here! We are indeed intellectually poor as k said we are.

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Mon, 01 Jul 2019 #263
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
JK: Yes. I question whether it is different, what is going on inside me as a human being and you as another human being, we both go through all kinds of problems, suffering, fear, anxiety, loneliness, suffer, and so on and so on. We have our dogmas, beliefs, superstitions, and everybody has this.

Thanks Dan for your very interesting and pertinent quote. I lifted part of it to comment on it in a moment. I think I understand your point and what K was pointing out to Dr. Bohm. The variance in our personal experiences are slight or irrelevant. We all experience and we all accumulate knowledge that we think is different because it has a different "face" if I may put it that way. Just as individually we have a different body, face whatever. But we are still all of the same.

Now the quote from your quote that I isolated and posted above interests me. All these things K is listing are our consciousness. The fear, anxiety, loneliness, etc. We all experience these things because there is, in fact, just one consciousness which we share.

So if it is clear that we don't have a separate consciousness rather we all are of one consciousness then it follows that we are not separate based on our experiences and knowledge. Why? Because as we have so often read, consciousness is it's content. OK, I see what you were saying. It seems clear. It's not my thought or your thought. It's just thought because it is all of our common consciousness.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 01 Jul 2019.

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Mon, 01 Jul 2019 #264
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
So if it is clear that we don't have a separate consciousness rather we all are of one consciousness then it follows that we are not separate based on our experiences and knowledge. Why? Because as we have so often read, consciousness is it's content. OK, I see what you were saying. It seems clear. It's not my thought or your thought. It's just thought because it is all of our common consciousness.

That is something, isn't it Jack?

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Mon, 01 Jul 2019 #265
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
That is something, isn't it Jack?

Yes it is. My wife and I were talking about this tonight. I brought it up and I have just sent her a screen grab, or whatever, of our exchange including what K pointed out to Dr. Bohm. She's having some difficulty with the one consciousness aspect. I hope our exchange helps. Thanks, Dan.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 01 Jul 2019.

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Mon, 01 Jul 2019 #266
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Many countries in Europe have been experiencing a severe heatwave over the past few days with temperatures over 40 º centigrade (104º fahrenheit).

Sean, I've been reading about the heatwave over in Europe. I don't know if it was accurate or not but I read that someplace in France experienced a high temperature of 114 degrees F (45.56 degrees C). My wife and I have visited France a couple of times in the Summer from Normandy to Paris to Arles and more and it was always very pleasant temps. It is very concerning how fast this change is happening The Poles especially are melting at an almost exponential rate. This is going to greatly affect ocean currents and, of course, climate and weather.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 01 Jul 2019.

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Mon, 01 Jul 2019 #267
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Thanks Dan for your very interesting and pertinent quote.

You're welcome, since I'm the one who posted it. Dan, then, copied it from my post and added bold formatting.

Jack Pine wrote:
She's having some difficulty with the one consciousness aspect.

Me, too. And we have been discussing it in this thread at length and in great detail. I hope you continue to discuss it with your wife with great kindness.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 01 Jul 2019.

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Mon, 01 Jul 2019 #268
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
You're welcome, since I'm the one who posted it. Dan, then, copied it from my post and added bold formatting.

To tell you the truth it really doesn't make any difference to me who posted it first. I think the relevant thing is that K pointed it out.

I think it was the timeliness of the post that I appreciated.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 01 Jul 2019.

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Mon, 01 Jul 2019 #269
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

K pointed out that marriage is a personal prostitution(that is why he never married) . Religions claim that marriage is a holly thing and came from heavens. Which one is true? Can anybody dare to go into that?
Society being corrupt is founded on prostitution. When you work in a factory from 9 to 5 you are selling your mind for money.

This post was last updated by One Self Mon, 01 Jul 2019.

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Mon, 01 Jul 2019 #270
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Sean, I've been reading about the heatwave over in Europe. I don't know if it was accurate or not but I read that someplace in France experienced a high temperature of 114 degrees F (45.56 degrees C). My wife and I have visited France a couple of times in the Summer from Normandy to Paris to Arles and more and it was always very pleasant temps. It is very concerning how fast this change is happening.

Hello Jack. Yes, the "The Guardian" newspaper in the UK reported that the French state weather forecaster, Météo-France, said the temperature in Gallargues-le-Montueux in the Gard département hit 45.9C at 4.20pm on Friday. This was the first time a temperature of more that 45º C had ever been recorded in France.

Here in my part of Spain we are used to very hot weather in July and August while the rest of the year is usually mild, agreeable and temperate with lots of sunshine. However, it's unusual to have such a strong heatwave in June. Today temperatures were back to normal with around 24ºC at 11 pm meaning it will be easier to sleep - during the heatwave minimum temperatures here were about 29º C at night.

Anyway, the state of the planet remains a serious concern for an ever increasing amount of people around the world. School children and students have staged one day strikes here and in other European countries demanding governments take more action to save the Earth.

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