Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The Future Of Humanity


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Tue, 02 Jul 2019 #271
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1471 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Only out of this real silence does the action of love flower. Yes?

It may be that 'something' does...the word 'love' is much too loaded for me to use in this context. 'Total compassion' it seems could be, when the feeling of 'individuality' is seen through.

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Tue, 02 Jul 2019 #272
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Okay. Thank you for this conversation.

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Tue, 02 Jul 2019 #273
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
Okay. Thank you for this conversation.

Any time:)

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Tue, 02 Jul 2019 #274
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1471 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
This silence comes naturally, spontaneously, and unprompted.

But for many of us, it just doesn't!

The 'self' can sit quietly watching listening to thought ( though it's actually thought being aware of itself, isn't it?) and then the self/thinker/ meditator can become 'included' in the watching...I tried in the other forum a while back to explain how I saw this: that the illusory 'thinker' or 'meditator' gives 'permission' to be seen..'allows' himself consciously to be included in the scene. I don't know if that conveys anything but it avoids the 'thinker'/thought having to use some sort of subterfuge to maintain the false duality?

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Wed, 03 Jul 2019 #275
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

So meditation comes naturally to the silent mind. It's like leaving the window open - if you are lucky the breeze comes in. I think K might have used this analogy at some point.

Thought blocking a natural flow is certainly observable in everyday life. When speaking in a language which is not your mother tongue it is easy to think about what you are going to say in too much depth. You want to construct an accurate piece of discourse but this thinking blocks the flow of language. Some people seem to manage to speak very proficiently in a foreign language. They talk about abstract topics with ease and flexibility. Their stream of language flows along and they don't have to think about or analyse too closely what they are saying.

So thought blocking natural flow is something that may happen in a variety of settings.

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Wed, 03 Jul 2019 #276
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5799 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
So meditation comes naturally to the silent mind. It's like leaving the window open - if you are lucky the breeze comes in. I think K might have used this analogy at some point.

Yes, I think that is what K pointed out. "Leaving the window open", is a nice way to put it. Certainly the self, the person, does not initiate meditation.

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Wed, 03 Jul 2019 #277
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day Varanasi, India | 2nd Public Talk, 22nd November 1964.

You know, in the case of most of us, the mind is noisy, everlastingly chattering to itself, soliloquizing or chattering about something, or trying to talk to itself, to convince itself of something; it is always moving, noisy. And from that noise, we act. Any action born of noise produces more noise, more confusion. But if you have observed and learnt what it means to communicate, the difficulty of communication, the non-verbalization of the mind - that is, that communicates and receives communication - , then, as life is a movement, you will, in your action, move on naturally, freely, easily, without any effort, to that state of communion. And in that state of communion, if you enquire more deeply, you will find that you are not only in communion with nature, with the world, with everything about you, but also in communion with yourself.

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Thu, 04 Jul 2019 #278
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
So meditation comes naturally to the silent mind. It's like leaving the window open - if you are lucky the breeze comes in.

Yes. What does "leaving the window open" mean? Have we slammed it shut?

Jack Pine wrote:
Certainly the self, the person, does not initiate meditation.

Yes. Real meditation is the natural, silent mind. It cannot be intentionally initiated. Does that mean we are doomed, stuck in conditioning and conflict forever?

Self knowledge can be initiated. That is part of meditation. That is a start. And the first step is the last step. The self can be observed in the mirror of relationship.

You can watch thought flow by, innocently, without trying to label it or change it. It can be watched like a bird or a stream is watched.

While the natural silence of real meditation cannot be initiated, real change can happen. Real moment to moment transformation. But it won't unless there is seeing of the violence, conflict, and harm in the world. And therefore in myself.

Unless the urgency of of conflict and violence is truly felt, why would a first step be taken? The window remains slammed shut, nailed closed. And the breeze doesn't stand a chance.

I can do nothing. But I must do something. The present crisis demands it.

At the very least I can watch myself. When I see my cruelty, my annoyance with someone, it can transform. There can be freedom from it. To see this is not to create an ideal. When change is, moment to moment, it is actual, not an ideal. Yes?

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Thu, 04 Jul 2019 #279
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

Meditation is the understanding of life. We don't understand our relationship with people and things therefore meditation becomes a goal , an ideal situation so we can get more energy to do more mischief.
It takes a lot of work to understand your relationship with people and we are not willing to do the work.

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Thu, 04 Jul 2019 #280
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

Relationship is a mirror

The Book of Life, March 15, HarperSanFrancisco, 1995

Surely, only in relationship the process of what I am unfolds, does it not? Relationship is a mirror in which I see myself as I am; but as most of us do not like what we are, we begin to discipline, either positively or negatively, what we perceive in the mirror of relationship. That is, I discover something in relationship, in the action of relationship, and I do not like it. So, I begin to modify what I do not like, what I perceive as being unpleasant. I want to change it—which means I already have a pattern of what I should be. The moment there is a pattern of what I should be, there is no comprehension of what I am. The moment I have a picture of what I want to be, or what I should be, or what I ought not to be—a standard according to which I want to change myself—then, surely, there is no comprehension of what I am at the moment of relationship.

I think it is really important to understand this, for I think this is where most of us go astray. We do not want to know what we actually are at a given moment in relationship. If we are concerned merely with self-improvement, there is no comprehension of ourselves, of ‘what is’.

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #281
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

One Self quoted Krishnamurti:
The moment there is a pattern of what I should be, there is no comprehension of what I am.

That's an interesting and appropriate quote, One Self.

I definitely question what K is saying here.

Let's take an example: Whenever I go into a particular store, I steal something. I'm very good at stealing and I get away with it.

Now I become aware of my stealing. Also I see its impact: how the store owner, who seems pretty poor and struggling, loses out when I steal. And I see how the stealing boosts my self, because obviously I want something and I get it for nothing. So I am boosting a division, a separate feeling from others where I get something and they lose.

Now you might think that if I am aware of all this, of all the harm I am doing, that I would stop. But no. That would be having an ideal. That would be having a picture of what I want to be: someone who doesn't steal.

So I go on stealing, but with awareness!

Now is that really K teaching? Because if it is, I want no part of it.

But that is what many people here seem to say: Don't change, because doing so means you have an ideal.

Whereas I say, and I surely think that K does, too, that real attention is transformation. That seeing the harm of my stealing with real attention is freedom from stealing and the ending of it. It is not having an ideal.

One Self wrote:
I think it is really important to understand this, for I think this is where most of us go astray.

I think this is really important, too. And I think we can go astray here, too. But for the opposite reason. You are saying that we create an ideal that prevents us from seeing what is, yes? I am saying that we don't really, really see what is, because if we did, there would be change.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 05 Jul 2019.

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #282
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5799 posts in this forum Offline

Once again, idiot, based in your above post you have completely misunderstood what it means to have an ideal. Or to make an ideal out of a belief. Instead of understanding it appears that you are more intent on justifying your misunderstanding of what others have said and what you think K is saying.

I'll give you an example. Recently you seemed upset because K had to carry a passport which you considered a denial of his pointing out that nationalism is part of the cause of conflict in the world. Nationalism, along with organized religion, racism and other idealistic beliefs. You idealized what K said about nationalism and then compared it with a simple compliance with the law that K had to do if he wished to travel from country to country. Namely, declaring residency of a country so he could obtain a passport. Your accusation was a childish, simplistic understanding of both what K said about nationalism and what your understanding of international travel

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #283
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Now let's take the example of Jack Pine. Obviously, he attacks certain people here on kinfonet. He doesn't just question their views. He attacks them, insults them, and tries to get them to leave kinfonet. Do you think he is unaware of what he is doing? I don't. He knows exactly what he is doing. He is aware of it as he is doing it. He will not change. To do so would be to have an ideal, to have some disingenuous concept of love or something, which is not honest. So he is aware of what he does and he rejects having some ideal of how he might be different.

Jack Pine feels justified in what he does. I bet he actually feels it is a duty, to keep what K pointed to from being mucked up by fools, misinterpreters, etc. Years ago he was a rifleman in a war and he has long since repudiated that. But you know what? He is still a soldier! He is a warrior right here on kinfonet, fighting for the right, against those who he sees as somehow wronging or misrepresenting Krishnamurti. It is a holy war and he is honor bound to fight it. To do otherwise is to dishonor Krishnamurti.

So he is aware of his attacks, even as he does them. He will not change because that would be an ideal, a false image rather than what is.

Can he really see the violence of attacking people and be free of it? There can be transformation only when attention fully sees what is, all the implications, how attack involves division of self and other, how justification boosts self. Such change really involves psychological death, the ending of self. And the self is very cunning. It will do whatever it can to survive. Whatever self-deception and mental trickery it can come up with, it will do. Anything. To avoid surrender. To avoid surrender to what is.

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #284
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1471 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Can he really see the violence of attacking people and be free of it? There can be transformation only when attention fully sees what is, all the implications, how attack involves division of self and other, how justification boosts self. Such change really involves psychological death, the ending of self. And the self is very cunning. It will do whatever it can to survive. Whatever self-deception and mental trickery it can come up with, it will do. Anything. To avoid surrender. To avoid surrender to what is.

Seeing all this a bit differently...Taking your words (and mine) as speaking from the "cunning" self. Jack's point I think is that our conditioning is 'total'. Your explanation, criticism comes from this conditioned self (as does his) always trying to spare and maintain itself. It's a very 'delicate' point as I see it. We 'learn' something and it becomes part of us...whether it's the word of God, or the word of Trump...I think that was the point of his post to me regarding taking 'insight' and adding it to the 'mix' of the conditioning. The truth can't be accumulated, we have been taught that it can and should be, but no matter how 'illuminating' it was at the time it was glimpsed, it is no longer the truth once it is remembered. Interesting to consider.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 05 Jul 2019.

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #285
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5799 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
So he is aware of his attacks, even as he does them. He will not change because that would be an ideal, a false image rather than what is.

Now why don't you post something in response to what I actually wrote in the above post? Something about how you, we, all, idealized what we believe in. Then when something contradicts that ideal, or at least appears to, we pull it out and compare it to the new facts we are faced with. Who doesn't do that? Starting with the second post on this forum you have done that repeatedly on this thread and on others. Here is your second post:

idiot?: Second post on this thread:
"Now the first word out K's mouth is...
"I"
The second word is...
"thought"
You may not see any irony in that, but I do.
"I thought we were going to talk about the future of man."

What you obviously appear to be referring to is that since K used a pronoun, I, and used the word "thought" that he was betraying himself by referring to a center, a self, that he points out doesn't exist. Then K uses the word thought and thought being in the past and conditioned is not the future.

You hold ideals about both of these concepts and then, taking K literally, you compare what you believe (that's what an ideal is, a belief") with what he is saying and you think K is being inconsistent. Isn't that what you were implying. If not what were you trying to imply?

This above example is exactly what I'm talking about. And this thread, as well as others, are rife with this kind of thinking.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 06 Jul 2019.

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #286
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5799 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Can he really see the violence of attacking people and be free of it?

What about you and your alter-ego "One Self". What about the attacks you two post? What about the attacks on me in your above post #298. I'm not attacking you I'm disagreeing with you. And I am giving concrete examples with my disagreement. You don't know anything about me so your attacks on my married life, my combat life, etc are completely speculation and aimed below the belt. I'm telling you exactly what I disagree with along with giving examples of facts. Instead of trying to insult me, which is a waste of time and something you can't do anyway, why not respond with some facts of your own?

And why not be honest and admit that you are behind one or two other identities on this forum? You just mentioned something in your post #298 about me that I just wrote to Huguette in a private message less than three hours ago.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 06 Jul 2019.

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #287
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
One Self quoted Krishnamurti:

The moment there is a pattern of what I should be, there is no comprehension of what I am.

Below I post the meanings of the word "questioning ". Which one do you refer to ? Can we question the questioner or he is always right?:=)

That's an interesting and appropriate quote, One Self.

I definitely question what K is saying here.

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #288
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
ques·tion (kw?s?ch?n)
n.
1.
A sentence, phrase, or gesture that seeks information through a reply.
2.
a. A subject or point that is under discussion or open to controversy: the question of whether a new school should be built.
b. A matter of concern or difficulty; a problem: This is not a question of too little money.
3.
a. A proposition brought up for consideration by an assembly.
b. The act of bringing a proposal to vote.
4. Law An issue in dispute for the resolution of a court.
5. Uncertainty; doubt: There is no question about the validity of the enterprise. Her integrity is beyond question.
v. ques·tioned, ques·tion·ing, ques·tions
v.tr.
1.
a. To ask a question or questions of (someone).
b. To interrogate (a suspect, for example). See Synonyms at ask.
2. To pose a question or questions regarding (something); analyze or examine: researchers questioning which of the methods will work.
3. To express doubt about; dispute: questioned his sincerity; questioned the expense report.
v.intr.
To ask questions.
Idioms:
in question
Under consideration or discussion.
out of the question
Not worth considering because of being too difficult or impossible: Starting over is out of the question.
[Middle English, from Old French, legal inquiry, from Latin quaesti?, quaesti?n-, from *quaestus, obsolete past participle of quaerere, to ask, seek

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Fri, 05 Jul 2019 #289
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

I think I understand what idiot means by his example of simply being aware of what one does not change things. A thief is aware that he is a thief and he remains as a thief.
When you drive you have to behave correctly . In the same way when you post things online there has to be certain morals which is not an ideal. It is like you have to have a good pen to write well.(something like that:).

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Sat, 06 Jul 2019 #290
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5799 posts in this forum Offline

So idiot?, instead of answering my direct questions about what did you mean by the second post in this thread you are, instead, trying to flood the thread with irrelevant non-sense posts hoping no one will notice. I am giving you a chance to explain your posts and you are replying.

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Sat, 06 Jul 2019 #291
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5799 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:

So he is aware of his attacks, even as he does them. He will not change because that would be an ideal, a false image rather than what is.

Jack Pine Wrote:

Now why don't you post something in response to what I actually wrote in the above post? Something about how you, we, all, idealized what we believe in. Then when something contradicts that ideal, or at least appears to, we pull it out and compare it to the new facts we are faced with. Who doesn't do that? Starting with the second post on this forum you have done that repeatedly on this thread and on others. Here is your second post:

idiot?: Second post on this thread:
"Now the first word out K's mouth is...
"I"
The second word is...
"thought"
You may not see any irony in that, but I do.
"I thought we were going to talk about the future of man."

Jack Pine:

What you obviously appear to be referring to is that since K used a pronoun, I, and used the word "thought" that he was betraying himself by referring to a center, a self, that he points out doesn't exist. Then K uses the word thought and thought being in the past and conditioned is not the future.

You hold ideals about both of these concepts and then, taking K literally, you compare what you believe (that's what an ideal is, a belief") with what he is saying and you think K is being inconsistent. Isn't that what you were implying. If not what were you trying to imply?

This above example of your second post on this thread is exactly what I'm talking about. And this thread, as well as others, are rife with this kind of thinking.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 06 Jul 2019.

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Sat, 06 Jul 2019 #292
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

This particular discussion is about 'the future of humanity'. The future of humanity is very gloomy according to what we see in the news every day. Maybe at the time of DB it was not clear what the future of humanity would be but now it is very well known that it is constantly degrading . The positive thinkers disagree but they have no fact to back it up..

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Sat, 06 Jul 2019 #293
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1404 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
The future of humanity is assured. Resilient and resourceful we will adapt and survive the unfolding catastrophe

I'm not at all sure about that Jamie.

from the previous discussion it is abundantly clear that even among the K. interested parties there is no unequivocal understanding and considering the future is now we should certainly not create a bright spot of hope!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sat, 06 Jul 2019 #294
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Yes. What does "leaving the window open" mean? Have we slammed it shut?

I understand that "leaving the window open" means leaving your mind and heart open. Is it slammed shut? Well, if it is, we have to notice that before anything changes. Do we notice our closed mindedness?

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Sun, 07 Jul 2019 #295
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

jamie f wrote:
The future of humanity is assured. Resilient and resourceful we will adapt and survive the unfolding catastrophe although what kind of world we will inhabit in the future is far from certain.

In fact Krishnamurti said something about those riches in the sixties who were building underground structures that could withstand the nuclear radiations for a year or so.
He said who would want to live on an earth that there is no people?
Is it not amazing how Krishnamurti covered every corner of our consciousness ?

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Sun, 07 Jul 2019 #296
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

I am not here to stimulate someone to write something back. I am only here to discover the truth.(The actual truth not the verbal truth.)

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Sun, 07 Jul 2019 #297
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1404 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
I'm just saying that it ain't over till the fat lady sings, Wim.

Oke

jamie f wrote:
There are some very clever people around and they're not just going to sit around and do nothing over the coming decades and centuries

That sounds to me that I'm not responsible and other very clever people will find a way out. An escape with faith and hope.

the only thing I can do is not contribute to the mess in the world. and if more people were willing to do so, not in word but in deed, that would make a difference alone.

And let's face it, the Truth needs no defenders, nor challengers,
only those who understand.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 08 Jul 2019 #298
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

jamie f wrote:
But when you walk around the city, you will see a little patch of green here and there amongst the concrete. All I am saying is that life always finds a way.

I am sorry to say that you are comparing Apple and oranges. Humans are moving away from the nature and becoming more capitalistic minded. We are becoming more and more frightened human beings as k said we are.

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Mon, 08 Jul 2019 #299
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

One Self wrote:
Humans are moving away from the nature and becoming more capitalistic minded. We are becoming more and more frightened human beings as k said we are.

I am not sorry to say the above because it is an irrevocable fact. People are becoming more and more careless and indifferent. Money and wealth has become their God. Humanity has become totally worn out. There is no true value. Only fictitious ones.

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Tue, 09 Jul 2019 #300
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1643 posts in this forum Online

Krishnamurti made his audiences aware of the danger of nationalism and division between nations sixty years ago when there was not even telegraph. He said what he said from his direct experiences with people and places . Here we sit in our room with a glass of coffee or what ever and we think we are big shots. I think we should all be quiet in shame and learn from this great man of history without the "me" in the picture.

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