Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Are we really "progressing" in our understanding?


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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #181
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
Capitalism is not the cause of the problem. The cause is the disordered psyche. Greed, fear, hate, measure, comparison, etc., are symptomatic of the disorder. And the root of it is self-ignorance, isn't it?

Yes, all that in bold existed long before capitalism didn't it...in primitive societies? Man against man begins in consciousness. It's the self...the 'me'... that's the cause of violence in the world...the cause of the world disorder. Weren't there warring primitive tribes in ancient times? There were kings and the pharaohs in biblical times. And in the Middle Ages we had feudalism with all it's horrors and exploitation. So man will always find ways to battle and exploit his fellow man unless there's change inwardly...he doesn't need a modern political or economic system to do so.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 04 Jun 2019.

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #182
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
K. I have explained what I mean by reform, by patchwork - it is an adjustment to an environment, born out of the lack of understanding.

This is an interesting way to express the self's reaction to its own surroundings, physical or psychological as I'm understanding these words. The self does not 'understand' the Now, the 'what is', the unknown...The self is the past and that is what in the guise of me, the 'I' entity, meets and "adjusts" to the perceived 'situation' or environment? i.e., I see 'capitalism' (of course there is no such thing its just a word) the idea though, I see it as bad, unfair, and that it should end in favor of something else. I think that I am right in this and can point out my reasons why and my sense of urgency, etc. You on the other hand say "no", capitalism is the best thing around, it has made me and my friends rich and give a bunch of other reasons of why replacing it will fail, etc... Is this kind of reaction to what one sees, "an adjustment to an environment? Is this what K is talking about here?... And if it is, then the radical alternative, that he is pointing out is: NO adjustment to one's environment. No self with its pros and cons, NO 'evaluation' of the environment...which does correspond to his 'secret'...that he didn't "mind" what happens. Comments?

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #183
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day, Ojai, California | 9th Public Talk 28th June, 1934:
What I am saying can only apply to those who are really in conflict, not to those who want to reform, who want to do patchwork. I have explained what I mean by reform, by patchwork - it is an adjustment to an environment, born out of the lack of understanding.

K is talking about radical revolution, not a gradual improvement of character. He's talking about an eruption, a complete break.

That is what this early quote is saying, yes?

Clearly if I am working to defend my country and to patriotically make my country a better place, I am still within the bounds of nationalism, no matter how noble my efforts. So "patchwork" will always be limited, if I don't go deep, if I don't dig down into the root.

The root is the self. You can gradually improve it. But that is illusory in that you remain in its bounds. Only in digging out the root is there radical change.

But the miraculous, the earthshaking revolution is in this ordinary moment. Right now. Moment to moment. The opportunity for awareness, for freedom, for love.

Right now, is there a self against the world? Or is there something quite unsayable?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 04 Jun 2019.

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #184
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
As Tom pointed out, overthrowing capitalism as a way to put out the fire has been tried and failed abjectly. It failed because the root of the problem was not understood, as I see it.

And mankind trying to understand greed and end it has also failed abjectly, miserably and consistently. You both keep missing the point. We have to act now. With the CO2 readings at 415 ppm, loss of countless species, the warming of the poles and on and on. We have to act, not theorize. We have to leave the hydrocarbons in the ground. It actually is a question of survival, of all of us. This is not hyperbole. It's a fact. Greed came first and capitalism organized it to the point where, as I have already pointed out, most of the wealth is in the hands of just a few individuals. And these same individuals are the ones, for the most part, who are choosing who our leaders are going to be and what policies they will pursue and which policies they will ignore.

And once again, I never said "overthrow". All I said was a huge part of the problem is capitalism: The mode, the system, in which we see and handle wealth. The rest you and Tom invented. Read what I actually said and comment on that not on the images formed in your own brains.

This is what I said and I stand behind it 100%.:

Capitalism is largely responsible for bringing the world to the point of destruction. It's not sustainable. It is an economic system that has organized greed to benefit the few and exploit the masses.

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #185
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K is talking about radical revolution, not a gradual improvement of character. He's talking about an eruption, a complete break.

That is what this early quote is saying, yes?

Which means what? That K is talking to no one?

Idiot,

Isn’t K talking to whoever realizes and is facing the fact that he is “really in conflict”? In the observation of inner conflict, there is only that. Blaming of the environment, speculating about the future or about what the ending of conflict might be like, is an attempt to avoid the inner conflict and therefore an extension of the conflict, as I see it. Any such avoidance is also observed.

For one who is in conflict, isn't talk about "the miraculous, the earthshaking revolution" speculation and time?

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #186
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Isn’t K talking to whoever realizes and is facing the fact that he is “really in conflict”? In the observation of inner conflict, there is only that. Blaming of the environment, speculating about the future or about what the ending of conflict might be like, is an attempt to avoid the inner conflict and therefore an extension of the conflict, as I see it. Any such avoidance is also observed.

I think we would all agree that addressing our inner conflict is absolutely necessary. My question is what we should do and how we should act when we observe something outside of us that is very, very destructive. For example, if capitalism is not regulated, a CEO has the obligation to maximise profits for his/her shareholders and ignore external costs. If an external cost is the destruction of an area of virgin forest, then that can't concern the CEO and must be ignored. He/she would lose her job if she did not do everything possible to maximise profits for stock holders. So an intelligent person might say "we must campaign peacefully to put limits on how corporations act". Would this just breed more conflict or would it help protect our endangered planet?

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #187
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
So an intelligent person might say "we must campaign peacefully to put limits on how corporations act". Would this just breed more conflict or would it help protect our endangered planet?

I personally don’t have an automatic objection to peaceful demonstration. What seems peaceful outwardly or superficially may be conflictual inwardly, or it may be peaceful.

We have been looking into self-ignorance, inner division, time, intelligence, love, attention, understanding and so on. For me, it is the inner state which is the touchstone, the thing which determines what is at the root of action. If the inner state is conflicted, self-centred, if action is rooted in fear, hate, conceit, desire, greed, and so on, the action is inevitably divisive and conflictual, as I see it.

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #188
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
So an intelligent person might say "we must campaign peacefully to put limits on how corporations act". Would this just breed more conflict or would it help protect our endangered planet?

Sean,

I personally don’t have an automatic objection to peaceful demonstration. What seems peaceful outwardly or superficially may be conflictual inwardly, or it may be peaceful.

We have been looking into self-ignorance, inner division, time, intelligence, love, attention, understanding and so on. For me, it is the inner state which is the touchstone, the thing which determines what is at the root of action. If the inner state is conflicted, self-centred, if action is rooted in fear, hate, conceit, desire, greed, and so on, the action is inevitably divisive and conflictual, as I see it.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 04 Jun 2019.

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #189
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Can you and I, Sean, call for a global demonstration, to be carried out silently and peacefully by all citizens of the world, demanding right action from political, religious, social and business leaders. Can this be done? Any ideas?

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #190
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Online

My question is what we should do and how we should act when we observe something outside of us that is very, very destructive. For example, if capitalism is not regulated, a CEO has the obligation to maximise profits for his/her shareholders and ignore external costs.

No one can tell another what right action should be when faced with the total disorder of capitalism. If you are moved to take political or social action, I don’t think anyone would argue with that. But do we want to turn this forum into just another place to discuss politics or social or environmental issues? There’s already more than enough places online to do that. I’m not sure what discussing the evils of capitalism has to do with the teaching. I think we all agree it’s evil and exploitive and a threat to the survival of the planet.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 04 Jun 2019.

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #191
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Online

Sean Hen wrote:
So an intelligent person might say "we must campaign peacefully to put limits on how corporations act".

Well Sean, another "intelligent" person might say "That's already been tried before, many times in many ways against many causes...do you have any ideas that might actually make a difference rather than just making yourself and others feel like you're doing something by chanting and marching with signs?" (Which I've personally done a number of times) Things are going to get more and more violent from the looks of things. Shouldn't you be sure before you put your life at risk that what you are doing is something that actually makes a difference rather than a temporary reformation... and something that won't simply be undone in the future by different players?

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #192
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Shouldn't you be sure before you put your life at risk that what you are doing is something that actually makes a difference rather than a temporary reformation... and something that won't simply be undone in the future by different players?

Dan,

Such certainty and guarantee about the future outcome of action cannot be had, can it? There's no such thing, is there?

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #193
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
chanting and marching with signs

People can demonstrate without chanting and signs, even perhaps spontaneously without organizing, can't they?

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #194
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
Such certainty and guarantee about the future outcome of action cannot be had, can it? There's no such thing, is there?

Of course not. But 'causes' attract. Thought creates the problem and then thought sets about solving it conveniently forgetting that it created it in the first place. And soldiers march off to war, music playing and flags flying...

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Tue, 04 Jun 2019 #195
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
People can demonstrate without chanting and signs, even perhaps spontaneously without organizing, can't they?

When the stupidity and ignorance of what is going on is felt deeply, and is understood that that very stupidity is what you are, then the action that comes from that may be the only thing that could bring about the radical change that could save humanity...That realization is not comparable in effect to any 'outer' reform. Do what you think is the 'right thing' to do...

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Wed, 05 Jun 2019 #196
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
When the stupidity and ignorance of what is going on is felt deeply, and is understood that that very stupidity is what you are, then the action that comes from that may be the only thing that could bring about the radical change that could save humanity

Many of us feel deeply the stupidity and ignorance of our present way of living. But I think on a subtle or not so subtle level we feel that it’s not me....that it’s the Republicans or the capitalists or the fundamentalist Christians that are causing all the problems. How many of us feel deeply that we are responsible for the mess....or as you say, we ARE the mess...that we are the world?

Let it Be

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Wed, 05 Jun 2019 #197
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
How many of us feel deeply that we are responsible for the mess....or as you say, we ARE the mess...that we are the world?

Very few Tom, very few, that's my guess...but I live out in the woods, what's it like in the city?

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Wed, 05 Jun 2019 #198
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Can you and I, Sean, call for a global demonstration, to be carried out silently and peacefully by all citizens of the world, demanding right action from political, religious, social and business leaders. Can this be done? Any ideas?

Hi Huguette. We could call for a global demonstration to be carried out silently but I don't imagine many people would listen. I don't have much influence. However, Krishnamurti does seem to influence an extremely wide variety of people. Here is a very interesting quote:

"More than any other living person, Krishnamurti inspired a consciousness community that transcends the world’s political boundaries".
~ Milton Friedman

Friedman was an advisor to the Republican President Ronald Reagan and Conservative British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. His political philosophy extolled the virtues of a free market economic system with minimal intervention. I think the quote shows that there is a recognition from an incredibly diverse group of people that there is a need to go to the root of conflict at an individual level in order to bring about meaningful change. I have no idea how Friedman reconciled neo-liberal economics with what Krishnamurti was saying though. It seems that Friedman had some contact with Krishnamurti in the last years of K's life and was deeply moved by what K was saying.

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Wed, 05 Jun 2019 #199
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
Very few Tom, very few, that's my guess...but I live out in the woods, what's it like in the city?

I think you probably realize it was a rhetorical question, Dan. If you’re so isolated that you’re not sure of the answer, just turn on the news for 2 minutes.

Let it Be

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Wed, 05 Jun 2019 #200
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
I think you probably realize it was a rhetorical question, Dan. If you’re so isolated that you’re not sure of the answer, just turn on the news for 2 minutes.

It was rhetorical I guess but what occupies me a lot here and I do keep up with the news, are the comings and goings of the animal life. They seem to me to be totally alive and totally in harmony with their surroundings in ways that we're not. They raise their young always alert for danger of the predator and seem to awaken each morning to a new day with little or no hold-over from yesterday and go directly about their various businesses..I don't at all mean to sentimentalise their lives but humans wouldn't be missed at all here if we were one day to disappear. Losing intimate touch with nature is a big loss for people I think .

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Wed, 05 Jun 2019 #201
Thumb_fuzzy6 Ken D United States 50 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I have no idea how Friedman reconciled neo-liberal economics with what Krishnamurti was saying though. It seems that Friedman had some contact with Krishnamurti in the last years of K's life and was deeply moved by what K was saying.

I regret having to point this out, but...from Mary Zimbalist's memoirs.

"Milton Friedman was not the famous economist of the same name, but he was a man who lived in Washington and he did speechwriting for Gerald Ford or something. He was interested in Krishnaji, and we made him a trustee, eventually, but he never came to a meeting."

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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Wed, 05 Jun 2019 #202
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
what occupies me a lot here and I do keep up with the news, are the comings and goings of the animal life. They seem to me to be totally alive and totally in harmony with their surroundings in ways that we're not.

I’m no expert, but I think the ‘lower ‘ animals may be just as violent as we are, but they don’t have any remorse or guilt. They also don’t have beliefs, ideals, goals, time ...conceptual thinking. And these that have amplified the effects of our animal violence to such an insane degree.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 05 Jun 2019.

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Wed, 05 Jun 2019 #203
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I regret having to point this out, but...Milton Friedman was not the famous economist...

Thanks, Ken, for helping us with inconvenient facts. Like that the early K talks are not verbatim but created from notes taken by a listener. Like belief in fairies.

Fortunately for us, you read carefully and widely and retain interesting facts.

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Thu, 06 Jun 2019 #204
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I regret having to point this out, but...from Mary Zimbalist's memoirs.

"Milton Friedman was not the famous economist of the same name, but he was a man who lived in Washington and he did speechwriting for Gerald Ford or something. He was interested in Krishnaji, and we made him a trustee, eventually, but he never came to a meeting."

Aha! Thanks for clearing this up Ken! I did wonder. Perhaps jkrishnamurti.org don't realise this. In the link here they have quotes about K from famous people including Milton Friedman which must confuse a lot of people.

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Thu, 06 Jun 2019 #205
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Thanks, Ken, for helping us with inconvenient facts.

Did you find this inconvenient idiot? Why was that?

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Thu, 06 Jun 2019 #206
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Did you find this inconvenient idiot? Why was that?

Ken began with "I regret having to point this out" which means he was anticipating there might be discomfort. My use of the word "inconvenient" was exactly the same. Sometimes facts may dismay some people but it's good that we get the facts. They may not dismay anyone and that's fine, too.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #207
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

Jack is hunting after idiot again.
Never trust a hypocrite.

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Sun, 08 Dec 2019 #208
Thumb_al_010 Alistair Melville United Kingdom 1 post in this forum Offline

Hi Jack,
I am fairly new here. Something deeply resonated with what you said here. No so much the words but the clarity behind them. I don't think we ever listen without the past knowledge coming in. We are listening through that screen the whole time which really is not listening at all. Listen through that 'past' is a safety net that keeps us 'comfortable and safe'. We don't want to be without that safety net, that screen of the past, that would be much to threatening, we would feel vulnerable. Is it possible to listen without this screen of the past coming in ? Perhaps, we could look at that if anyone is interested. I mean look at it totally afresh today as if we have never looked at it before.

If in doubt remain silent.

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Mon, 09 Dec 2019 #209
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Alistair Melville wrote:
We don't want to be without that safety net, that screen of the past, that would be much to threatening, we would feel vulnerable. Is it possible to listen without this screen of the past coming in ?

Hi Alistair. Do you think that it may be that we don't want to be without the "safety net" maybe because we are the safety net? I mean by that we are what we think (I know this has become a cliché). "We", the center, want to experience a "change" to be "enlightened" to be "transformed". Can there be any of this while the illusion of a center remains in thinking? Can there be a complete awareness that "we", "I" are nothing more than a collection of experiences and knowledge; memories, conditioning?

What we are now is a bunch of fragments; Americans, British, Kenyans, Christians, Muslims, Hebrews, white, black, yellow, red and so on. Can it be seen that these are all inventions of thought or simply superficial differences that separates humanity which eventually leads to conflict, hatred, war and ultimately the destruction of the earth?

Humanity, in it's present form, is like a virus, a cancer, that is destroying the earth and all life on it. Will we change in time to save the destruction of the earth?

One becomes discouraged by the reality of "leaders" like the pathological liar and malignant narcissist (and much worse) that is presently "leading" the United States.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 09 Dec 2019.

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