Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is the ground on which inner silence may come about?


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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #151
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Another piece of knowledge that comes automatically, that we repeat reflexively but we are no longer attentive to it, the knowledge, is no longer in the present and fresh and new?

Yes that is the way it works it seems...K.'s suggestion was to "stay with the numbness" as I recall is the way he put it. To realize that there is this 'numbness' is a big deal!

Jack Pine wrote:
unless we are seeing change as if for the first time then it is something we have conceptualized into a neat little package.

Again that is a good description of how thought works and we can also conceptualize this idea of seeing things "as if for the first time" and 'compare' how we actually see, with this idea of: if we didn't "conceptualize into little neat packages" (or not so neat) that we 'would' see differently: fresh and new i.e. But it is about 'seeing' what is going on now, how I am now, how I am acting now that is the only importance, is it not?... When I face the fact of what I am with a judgement of how I might or should be, that is the 'trap' of time, isn't it? It is another way thought escapes from the 'fact' of what is. The 'idea' of what I should be and then the 'action' to bring it about is the cause of conflict. That space between the seeing and the doing.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 15 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #152
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
And this is from the person who took up 30 % of the impute only of this topic.

I have noticed what you do. When you see yourself incapable in front of a fact you start making an image of the writer of that fact and copy and copy and copy till death clears it eventually. You choose to be who you are. Aggressive and the aggression expresses itself in ganging up with similar minded in here. That is the mediocre mind. A mind with no creativity of it's own and depends on other members of the little gang for support..

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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #153
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Dan I think you see what I'm trying to point out. I am also trying to point out that not only are we conceptualizing, idealizing what K is pointing out by internalizing the information but also there is something else. Maybe many "somethings" else.

K tends to be negative. He speaks of what things are not which tends to empty the mind of previous concepts, beliefs, habits and so on. The response most of us seem to have to this is to fill the mind with a response to this "wiping away of thought" by wanting to analyze it, discuss it, philosophize it. I think we are conditioned to response this way. In school we were tested on what we knew and not on what had been dissolved, removed from our minds, as a result of understanding and maybe even insight.

When it is pointed out, for example, that we are conditioned to accept nationalization, and organized belief in a "higher being", deity, religion, can we stay with just that without immediately imagining ourselves free of these feelings or some such thinking? Can we just stay with the fact of conditioning without any response of thought to it whatsoever? As I said, that seems to be so difficult because we are so habituated, conditioned, to respond, to discuss, to agree or disagree, to imagine a state of not being nationalistic or religious. Do you know what I'm trying to point out?

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #154
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Can we just stay with the fact of conditioning without any response of thought to it whatsoever? As I said, that seems to be so difficult because we are so habituated, conditioned, to respond, to discuss, to agree or disagree, to imagine a state of not being nationalistic or religious.

With permission, 'I' read your words in this way (correct me): Can 'psychological thought', when realizing that it is totally conditioned, can it become aware and stay with that fact... without any movement...can it stop? That is really the only question as I see it now Jack...but that is our own question that each of us may or may not bring into our own 'meditation' as we understand it...what is discovered there, I think, is what we should 'discuss'/share to the best of our ability. 'Silence' here may just be another lie, a desire to hold on to some thing that was found, to not 'expose' it...'holding on' though, is part of the conditioning, isn't it? There is nothing to hold on to. Nothing to lose....And nothing to gain.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #155
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Dan, I think what I am trying to say is can thought be observed without there being any reaction to it? Can someone point out, express, that the human mind is conditioned without there being any reaction to that fact? Just observation of the fact of conditioning whatever it may be, nationalism, religion...………?

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #156
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
I have noticed what you do. When you see yourself incapable in front of a fact you start making an image of the writer of that fact and copy and copy and copy till death clears it eventually. You choose to be who you are. Aggressive and the aggression expresses itself in ganging up with similar minded in here. That is the mediocre mind. A mind with no creativity of it's own and depends on other members of the little gang for support.

yes, a truly perfect description of what One Self does.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 16 Apr 2019.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #157
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Can someone point out, express, that the human mind is conditioned without there being any reaction to that fact?

In considering your question; why would you believe someone who says such a thing? Do you just 'accept' it as truth because the person that is saying that has a certain charisma, a 'following', a reputation, etc. The people around you are going to church and flying their flags and this person comes along and says that that is all just "conditioning"...you listen to him and it makes 'sense' because you see that the world of man seems to be in such a divided mess. You don't reject what he says but you can't 'know' if what he is saying is true, you have no way of ascertaining that because, according to him, you are 'totally conditioned'. So unless you are just going to fall into the comfortable trap of becoming a 'follower', you have to go into it for yourself, 'tear it apart', doubt, question...He may be right or he might just be a 'freak'. So bearing in mind that you may be totally conditioned, you have work out how you will still find the truth or the falseness of it in spite of this 'conditioning', right?. With no 'guide'. With no 'path'. With no 'guarantee' of anything. But I do see clearly, the folly of becoming a 'believer'. It occurs to me that yesterday's understanding is no understanding at all.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 16 Apr 2019.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #158
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam the copy-cat wrote:
yes, a truly perfect description of what One Self does.

So you just copy me and copy Krishnamurti without any understanding because you are incapable of seeing your self. Get a life dude.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #159
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Dan, I have tried to answer you last post twice and both times it was rejected by the site. Apparently if you spend too much time on here and don't post it wipes out what you eventually try to post.

Dan your response to my post 173 is just a bunch of assumptions and conclusions that have little or no basis in fact. I didn't write or say what you suggested I was saying or thinking. I merely wrote, "don't react" to what K points out. That's what we all have been conditioned to do with information we are given. Try reading 173 again without coming to all of the unwarranted, unsubstantiated conclusions. Time to start my day. Have a pleasant day.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 16 Apr 2019.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #160
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

I read jack and Dan comments ,I agree with Dan. One has to investigate his or her conditioning for being false or true. If you let your conditioning do it's things without any reaction then it may be too late and you may end up in prison for murdering someone who has different belief than yours.

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Tue, 16 Apr 2019 #161
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
In considering your question; why would you believe someone who says such a thing?

Look at the question I asked and you quoted and then look at what you posted as part of your response above. Where is the connection between the two? I said don't react. Not accept or believe.

And can't you readily see that we have been conditioned to accept, to believe in "god" and "country"? That was obvious to me before I ever heard of K or Bohm.

Dan McDermott wrote:
because you see that the world of man seems to be in such a divided mess.

"Seems" to be such a divided mess? The world is divided up into nationalities and organized religion, races and more which is obvious to even the casual observer. That is not an illusion or one that you have to have someone else point out to you. It's an obvious fact.

Dan McDermott wrote:
He may be right or he might just be a 'freak'. So bearing in mind that you may be totally conditioned, you have work out how you will still find the truth or the falseness of it in spite of this 'conditioning', right?.

No. And aren't you falling into the same old trap of thinking there is a "you" apart from conditioning? Will "you" ever know the truth? Same arguments, Dan, that have appeared here over and over again. I'm not interested in recovering that ground. Dan, you can think or do what you want. I was trying to point something out I thought was interesting. I'm not going to argue about it.

Here's today's quote which you may find relevant:

Group Discussion 13th April, 1948 | Mumbai, India

Question: What is it that destroys security?
Krishnamurti: Nationalism destroys physical security. It brings about war. Everything we do psychologically is against peace.
Question: When we jump out of our state of contradiction, will there be honest thinking? Or, must we isolate ourselves?
Krishnamurti: Are you aware that you are in contradiction? You cannot call yourself a nationalist and at the same time talk of peace. When property is used for self-expansion, it leads to hatred. It is a contradiction. When you have particular beliefs, can you maintain real brotherhood?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 17 Apr 2019.

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Wed, 17 Apr 2019 #162
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Get a life dude.

not a shadow of doubt I live and by the way, whatever you call me.

it is because of a lack of arguments that people abuse.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 17 Apr 2019.

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Wed, 17 Apr 2019 #163
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I have been reading Dr Bohm's book THOUGH AS A SYSTEM which is an often difficult to follow and a very in depth discussion of thought and how thought works. Bohm brings out how we all tend to conceptualize things, many of the things, we have heard or read from K, for example, or elsewhere. Bohm goes on to point out how these concepts become rigid blocks of knowledge or "truths" that become part of our thought, our memory, and basically our self our center. Essentially, it becomes part of our conditioning, perhaps our new conditioning.

Hi Jack and all. This is very interesting and I'm sure we can all see the truth in what David Bohm is saying here. I am as guilty as anyone of conceptualising what K pointed out. Perhaps it's possible to explore this more and go further.

Jack Pine wrote:
What I am trying to say, and may I'm not being clear, is that unless we are seeing change as if for the first time then it is something we have conceptualized into a neat little package. Am I being clear at all? Have either of you read Bohm's book which might help if you have.

I think what you are saying is clear Jack. I haven't read David Bohm's book though.

Jack Pine wrote:
You do understand that I am not disagreeing with what either of you said about change but rather I am trying to ask or point out; what do we do with the knowledge or understanding that we acquire? Does it become just another part of our conditioning? Another piece of knowledge that comes automatically, that we repeat reflexively but we are no longer attentive to it, the knowledge, is no longer in the present and fresh and new?

This is certainly a trap that is all too easy to fall into - we have some understanding of K's teaching but this too just becomes another layer of conditioning.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Wed, 17 Apr 2019.

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Wed, 17 Apr 2019 #164
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:

Jack Pine wrote:

You do understand that I am not disagreeing with what either of you said about change but rather I am trying to ask or point out; what do we do with the knowledge or understanding that we acquire? Does it become just another part of our conditioning? Another piece of knowledge that comes automatically, that we repeat reflexively but we are no longer attentive to it, the knowledge, is no longer in the present and fresh and new?

This is certainly a trap that is all too easy to fall into - we have some understanding of K's teaching but this too just becomes another layer of conditioning.

What's also interesting is what they described in " Truth and Actuality ":

Chapter 3 : THE SEED OF TRUTH

Krishnamurti: If a seed of truth is planted it must operate, it must grow, it must function, it has a life of its own.

Dr. Bohm: Many millions of people may have read or heard what you say. It may seem that a large number of them haven’t understood. Do you feel that they are all going eventually to see it?

Krishnamurti: No, but it’s going on, they are worried about it, they ask, “What does he mean by this?” The seed is functioning, it’s growing, it isn’t dead. You can say something false and that also operates.

Dr. Bohm: Yes, but now we have a struggle between those two and we cannot foresee the outcome of this struggle; we can’t be sure of the outcome.

Krishnamurti: You plant in me the seed that, “Truth is a pathless land”. Also a seed is planted in my consciousness that says, “There is a way to truth, follow me”. One is false, one is true. They are both embedded in my consciousness. So there is a struggle going on. The true and the false, both are operating, which causes more confusion, more misery and a great deal of suffering, if I am sensitive enough. If I don’t escape from that suffering what takes place?

Dr. Bohm: If you don’t escape, then it’s clear what will take place. Then you will have the energy to see what is true.

Krishnamurti: That’s right.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 17 Apr 2019 #165
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

The problem with this forum is that there are more old minds than young ones. The old minds seek excitements and for that they keep arguing endlessly. Without excitement and conflict the old minds have nothing(one can see how old generations create war and in courage hatred in the world) . So trying to put some sense in an old mind that seeks merely excitement is impossible. He will argue to death because of the excitement that he gets from arguments. It is a hopeless situation in here which prevents sharing and makes the site dull and useless. And the old minds are against any kind of criticism.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 17 Apr 2019.

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Wed, 17 Apr 2019 #166
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
The problem with this forum is that there are more old minds than young ones. The old minds seek excitements and for that they keep arguing endlessly. Without excitement and conflict the old minds have nothing(one can see how old generations create war and in courage hatred in the world) . So trying to put some sense in an old mind that seeks merely excitement is impossible. He will argue to death because of the excitement that he gets from arguments. It is a hopeless situation in here which prevents sharing and makes the site dull and useless. And the old minds are against any kind of criticism.

I beg you pardon,
I rather be impressed by this two investigating old minds, than by this one of One Self, don't you all ??

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 18 Apr 2019 #167
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

The problem with the old people is that they are not willing to learn anything other than what they already know through books and personal experiences.. That puts a dead end to their thinking...

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Thu, 18 Apr 2019 #168
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
The problem with the old people is that they are not willing to learn anything other than what they already know through books and personal experiences.. That puts a dead end to their thinking...

old people indicates the physical age
and has nothing to do with a flexible learning mind.

not the physical age but the repetition of the same characteristic,
the expression of criticism, indicates a stuck mind.

the characteristic of a really old mind is that it is only critical of what others are doing and are too lazy to search within themselves.

And one can distinguish those characteristic very easy in the former replies.

One doesn't need to read any book seeing this appearance.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 18 Apr 2019.

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Thu, 18 Apr 2019 #169
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, at some point you have to ask yourself why are you arguing, responding to, someone who is obviously very insecure and not very bright? I asked myself this question and my answer is that it's a waste of time.

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Thu, 18 Apr 2019 #170
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

"The old mind is essentially the mind that is bound by authority. I am not using the word authority in the legalistic sense; but by that word I mean authority as tradition, authority as knowledge, authority as experience, authority as the means of finding security and remaining in that security, outwardly or inwardly, because, after all, that is what the mind is always seeking—a place where it can be secure"

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Thu, 18 Apr 2019 #171
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Wim, at some point you have to ask yourself why are you arguing, responding to, someone who is obviously very insecure and not very bright? I asked myself this question and my answer is that it's a waste of time.

Jack, it's only a waste of time if there is a goal to convince someone of something, but that's not the case. There is an offering direct observation on the content of the reply not at the messenger of the reply.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 18 Apr 2019 #172
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, can't you see that this guy is desperate to have someone, anyone, respond to him? This forum is littered with his name being the last one on a thread. And then, of course, he doesn't even understand the quotes he is using, without siting references, to push his bigoted, biased argument.

Wim Opdam wrote:
There is an offering direct observation on the content of the reply not at the messenger of the reply.

Is the message separate from the messenger?

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Thu, 18 Apr 2019 #173
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

Jack will never be free from his highschool and military brainwashing which he calls it conditioning. As he is in constant conflict with himself and Krishnamurti. So as wim the abstract writer. They gang up together. Such a mediocre minded people...

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Fri, 19 Apr 2019 #174
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Wim, can't you see that this guy is desperate to have someone, anyone, respond to him?

Jack, seeing something is wrong doesn't explain his motives or characteristics,
that stays unknown.
When we fill in the unknown part, is that our completion of the incompleteness.

You could be right and may be he is only busy to proof that we all have an ego with images of how it is or should be, as he have of us.

If he sees it as mediocre, abstract or gang up are his images, there is nothing to defend or attack, de readers are not that stupid to not see through that.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 19 Apr 2019 #175
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, I'm not absolutely sure I understand everything it is your trying to say in the above post. My point is do we really want to make this forum or this thread about one self and his angry, ignorant bigotry? Or are we here to discuss K and discuss with each other K's findings and our understanding? He obviously has nothing to say so why respond to it?

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Fri, 19 Apr 2019 #176
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, don't you think it would be much more interesting to discuss today's quote about religion and the limited morality it offers to believers? I certainly would.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 19 Apr 2019.

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Fri, 19 Apr 2019 #177
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

'Ignorance is the unawareness of the process of one's own thought and emotion.'

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Fri, 19 Apr 2019 #178
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Wim, don't you think it would be much more interesting to discuss today's quote about religion and the limited morality it offers to believers? I certainly would.

Yes, I'm curious why within 72 hour a few meceneas brought up 1 Millard euro to repair the Notre dame in Paris, could it be they would pay off there guild of greed?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sat, 20 Apr 2019 #179
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Yes, I'm curious why within 72 hour a few meceneas brought up 1 Millard euro to repair the Notre dame in Paris, could it be they would pay off there guild of greed?

Looks like they are going to be able to rebuild the place. My wife and I have been there a couple of times. Quite an impressive and beautiful piece of architecture. I think some rich people want their names connected to the re-building of such a famous place. I wish more people felt this way about "re-building" the earth that is being destroyed by greed, war and over-population.

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Sat, 20 Apr 2019 #180
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Boyan Slat had much more people needed to provide less money for his "ocean cleanup" project, and that for the plastic mess we people leave behind instead of beingcareful with.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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