Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is the ground on which inner silence may come about?


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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #121
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
To me krishnamurti was a true scientist . He was never a guru of any kind.

First you write the above, which is your image of K.

One Self wrote:
What is important is not what k said or did, What is important to me is to have a clear mind. Not a mind that is caught in image- making.

And then you immediately contradict yourself in your very next post by writing the above. Do you see the problem here? Do these two statements seem confused, inconsistent and contradictory?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 07 Apr 2019.

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #122
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
"Mind" is another one of those fuzzy, baffling terms that can mean virtually anything one can imagine. Is the "mind" an after effect of the brain? Is it separate from the brain? What would it mean to be "separate" from the brain? There is no agreed upon answer to these puzzles.

Ken, have you read the several dialogues between K and David Bohm where they discuss, very thoroughly it seems, "mind" and "brain". I'm referring to, in part; THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY, THE WHOLENESS OF LIFE, THE LIMITS OF THOUGHT.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 07 Apr 2019.

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #123
Thumb_kr Ken D United States 34 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Ken, have you read the several dialogues between K and David Bohm where they discuss, very thoroughly it seems, "mind" and "brain"

I've read enough of that material and ended up not much wiser for having done so. It's way too speculative, and really settles nothing. To be honest, I'm not terribly impressed with those discussions. To give you an idea, here's a selection from The Ending of Time. This just seems to result in endless chin stroking.

K: Which brings us to that ground we spoke of...

DB: What about the ground?

K: In that ground there is no darkness as darkness, or light as light. In that ground, there is no division. Nothing is born of will, or time, or thought.

DB: Are you saying that light and darkness are not divided?

K: Right.

DB: Which means to say there is neither.

K: Neither, that’s it! There is something else. There is a perception that there is a different movement, which is ‘non-dualistic’.

DB: Non-dualistic means what? No division.

K: No division. I won’t use ‘non-dualistic’. There is no division.

DB: But nevertheless there is movement.

K: Of course.

DB: What does that mean now, without division?

K: I mean by movement, that movement which is not time. That movement doesn’t breed division. So I want to go back, lead to the ground. If, in that ground, there is neither darkness nor light, no God or the son of God—there is no division—what takes place? Would you say that the ground is movement?

DB: Well, it could be, yes. Movement is undivided.

K: No. I say there is movement in darkness.

DB: Yes, but we said there is no division of darkness and light, and yet you said there is movement.

K: Yes. Would you say the ground is endless movement?

DB: Yes.

K: What does that mean?

DB: Well, it is difficult to express.

"It has occurred to me, brother, that wisdom may not be the end of everything. Goodness and kindliness are, perhaps, beyond wisdom." James Stephens

This post was last updated by Ken D Sun, 07 Apr 2019.

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #124
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
In fact the conscious mind is crippled . It is worn out and has no freshness. But the unconscious is challenging and sharp. Krishnamurti spoke to this unconscious mind

How can a shallow mind understand anything beyond itself?

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #125
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
In fact the conscious mind is crippled . It is worn out and has no freshness. But the unconscious is challenging and sharp. Krishnamurti spoke to this unconscious mind

How can a shallow mind understand anything beyond itself?

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #126
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
How can a shallow mind understand anything beyond itself?

While you're coming to random and basically meaningless conclusions you might also want to note that you are double posting, again. How do you manage to do that? Anyway, you might want to consider deleting one of the double posts so that we won't be wasting space and memory on this forum. I know it's a drop in the bucket but it all adds up. It's the responsible thing to do. One double post yesterday too.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 07 Apr 2019.

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #127
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Ken, thanks for your reply and taking the time to give an example and explain your view. What you say may or may not be a fact but they, K and Bohm, did explain fairly well the difference between "brain" and "mind". I just can't remember in which dialogue they did the explaining.

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #128
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
The conflict that k warn us against is not a thing to be resolved by the limited conscious mind . The more we try to tame the unconscious the more failure we face to deal with. Humans are deep rooted self- destructive animals and the action of will cannot change it.

The conscious mind is too occupied with money and the rest of it that it cannot go beyond itself. And love is beyond consciousness.

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #129
Thumb_kr Ken D United States 34 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
And love is beyond consciousness

I have no idea what this means, even if it fell from the lips of Krishnamurti.

"It has occurred to me, brother, that wisdom may not be the end of everything. Goodness and kindliness are, perhaps, beyond wisdom." James Stephens

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #130
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
One Self wrote:
And love is beyond consciousness

I have no idea what this means, even if it fell from the lips of Krishnamurti.

Ken? He doesn't either. He is quoting his own confused, random, hollow statements. He is, essentially, having a dialogue with himself based on his own irrational posts. I think we have finally entered into someone's "la la" land. This forum may be unofficially kaput. If it wasn't already.

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #131
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I have no idea what this means, even if it fell from the lips of Krishnamurti.

Is that the fault of Krishnamurti or you yourself? Surely not Krishnamurti.

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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #132
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 513 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D quoted K and DB The Ending of Time:
...K: In that ground there is no darkness as darkness, or light as light. In that ground, there is no division. Nothing is born of will, or time, or thought...

Darkness and light here are distinctions made by the mind, not the sensory perceptions that are very rapidly interpreted by the mind.

This quote seems unclear to the mind because it is K referencing what is, to him, reality: no division, will, time, or thought. The mind cannot reach here. So what is there when there is no division, time, will, thought? K and Bohm discover that there is movement, physical activity. I would say further, there is awareness, love.

They use the metaphor of "the ground" because this is the foundation that is present even underneath thought, will, time. Those are needed sometimes for a certain level of practicality, but even then, this ground of - I would say, clear openness - is present.

So K and DB are in discussion, which is by necessity verbal and to some degree intellectual, but K always pulls directly from the reality of silence - clear, simple, open awareness - and brings that actuality into the discussion, description, verbal exploration.

Of course, you are welcome to question and disagree with me but I offer that understanding, clarification of the quoted passage for your consideration.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 07 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #133
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Darkness and light here are distinctions made by the mind, not the sensory perceptions that are very rapidly interpreted by the mind.

This quote seems unclear to the mind because it is K referencing what is, to him, reality: no division, will, time, or thought. The mind cannot reach here. So what is there when there is no division, time, will, thought? K and Bohm discover that there is movement, physical activity. I would say further, there is awareness, love.

Idiot, please don't presume to translate K for us. That is what one self is constantly trying to do and not succeeding. Don't translate or explain K neither of you or anyone else, including myself, are prepared or qualified to do so.

When you make absolute statements about what the teaching is and then don't explain the reasoning, the rationale, or whatever, behind it then that leaves us what? We either have to take your word for it, accepting you as an authority, or we ignore it.

Opinions aren't of any real value on this site and many other places. There are facts that we have to see together, based on reasoning and evidence, or they aren't worth anything. No one is an authority on K.

THE BOOK OF LIFE, OCT. 10

A mind that gives an opinion about a fact is a narrow, limited, destructive mind ... You can translate the fact in one way, and I can translate it in another way. The translation of the fact is a curse which prevents us from seeing the actual fact and doing something about the fact. When you and I discuss our opinions about the fact, nothing is done about the fact; you can add perhaps more to the fact, see more nuances, implications, significance about the fact, and I may see less significance in the facts. But the fact cannot be interpreted; I cannot offer an opinion about the fact. It is so, and it is very difficult for a mind to accept the fact. We are always translating, we are always giving different meanings to it, according to our prejudices, conditionings, hopes, fears and all the rest of it. If you and I could see the fact without offering an opinion, interpreting, giving a significance, then the fact becomes much more alive—not more alive—the fact is there alone, nothing else matters; then the fact has its own energy which drives you in the right direction.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 08 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #134
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Idiot, please don't presume to translate K for us. That is what one self is constantly trying to do and not succeeding. Don't translate or explain K neither of you or anyone else,

Who on earth are you to tell us what not to do. Get a life dude.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #135
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Idiot, please don't presume to translate K for us. That is what one self is constantly trying to do and not succeeding. Don't translate or explain K neither of you or anyone else,

Who on earth are you to tell us what not to do. Get a life dude.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #136
Thumb_kr Ken D United States 34 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K and Bohm discover that there is movement, physical activity.

It's confusing because Krishnamurti says the ground has a non-dualistic movement, but he also says that there's a movement in darkness. Now, really, what does any of this mean? None of these terms are defined or quantifiable, so it's impossible to avoid engaging in interpretation.

"It has occurred to me, brother, that wisdom may not be the end of everything. Goodness and kindliness are, perhaps, beyond wisdom." James Stephens

This post was last updated by Ken D Mon, 08 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #137
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 513 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
It's confusing because Krishnamurti says the ground has a non-dualistic movement, but he also says that there's a movement in darkness. Now, really, what does any of this mean?

Yes, I appreciate what you are saying. It does seem that they were trying to feel their way into the inexpressible. As I said, K seems to draw on direct connection to what is being called the ground. DB may not have had this connection but he had an extraordinary ability to listen closely and to push K into clarification. Perhaps this time he was less successful at getting K to clarify.

I have shared some of my understanding. Understanding can be grounded in the real, or it can be speculation. Here is some more of my take, make of it what you will:

A beautiful tree is standing. It is quite still. Yet there is shimmer from the morning sun. The branches very gently sway in a breeze. A squirrel is busy in the tree. And it is connected to everything else. It is a flow, and unstoppable process, even though one may have to look closely to see the activity.

Someone else glances at the tree. Ah, yes beautiful. Now I have to be on my way. What was I thinking about? Oh, yeah. Something in my past or future that was troubling me...

The ground. And darkness. There is movement in both. Yet it is altogether different.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #138
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Who on earth are you to tell us what not to do. Get a life dude.

This from a guy who posts double posts and either is not awake enough to see them or doesn't know how to remove them. Learn how to post first before you tell someone else what not to do. And anyway I couldn't care less what you think. I have a life, a pretty good one, what about you?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 08 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #139
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Ken I don't share your cynicism and your confusion in what K and Bohm pointed out. If you came to K when you were older it becomes much more difficult to overcome a life of conditioning and knowledge in general. I was lucky enough to have come across a book by K 47 years ago when I was, obviously, much younger. And even at that relatively young age I had already dropped a great deal of the conditioning society tries to saddle us with. I had dropped all belief in organized religion by the time I was 11 or 12. Several years later I also dropped any feeling for belonging to any particular nation, economic system or social matrix as the result of being drafted into the infantry and sent to Vietnam. This along with joining the counter-culture (hippies) when I got out of the army helped destroy that conditioning.

What the latter offered was the space to live life without having to fit into the usual and normal regimentation of life one had to fit into to find a decent job, get married, have kids and perpetuate to whole rotten rat-race of society that is destroying this planet.

Before I ever heard of K I was aware of my set views (conditioning) of life and of who or what I should be. I had complete, and still do, distain for the bourgeois view of life; the economic system, the political system, the works. A few years after I first became aware of K my girl friend, at the time, and I travelled to Ojai to see and hear K first hand. She was subsequently hired to teach at the Oak Grove School when it first opened in the new buildings which I, along with many others, helped build.

At that time many of the teachers lived at what used to be called Arya Vihara and now called the Pepper Tree Retreat. My girl friend and I lived there for about a year. When K was in town he lived a few hundred feet away in the Pine Cottage, now called the library. He held regular private talks in his living room for a small number of teachers and parents which I was able to attend. I spoke to him twice, briefly, all of which tended to make K seem more approachable and human and less intimidating, if that's the right word. It was also much easier to ask a question in this setting. Also, I was able to talk to some of the teachers at that time about what K was saying which may have helped a little to understand some things.

You can do what you want about your resistance to K. But does it really help to feed others who also can't or won't understand K and who feed on your cynicism to justify their own cynicism and inability to see what K was pointing out?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 08 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #140
Thumb_kr Ken D United States 34 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
...who feed on your cynicism to justify their own cynicism...

I'm not expressing cynicism, I'm just asking for clarity, and sometimes it's lacking.

"It has occurred to me, brother, that wisdom may not be the end of everything. Goodness and kindliness are, perhaps, beyond wisdom." James Stephens

This post was last updated by Ken D Mon, 08 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #141
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I'm not expressing cynicism, I'm just asking for clarity, and sometimes it's lacking.

OK. I agree with you about the clarity part. Bohm, for me and others, can be extremely difficult to understand. I am trying to read, again, his book THOUGHT AS A SYSTEM. It is very difficult. The book is a transcript of four talks, or seminars, he gave here in Ojai a few years before his death. He had a following of men, mostly, that had been involved with the KFA in various capacities for years.

The first K book I read was THINK ON THESE THINGS which I thought was really clear and addressing things that were of immediate interest to me. I felt like K was discussing and explaining things I was questioning myself but didn't actual realize I was until I read what he was saying. I found out later the book is a record of talks given to school children. I'm not sure exactly what ages. Anyway it was on the right level for me. It's a fascinating book.

Have you considered reading something by just K, I'm sure you probably have anyway, that does not involve David Bohm? I'm taking my own advice and leaving Bohm out of the equation for awhile and just reading books with K.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #142
Thumb_kr Ken D United States 34 posts in this forum Offline

I had a copy of "Thought As A System" and tried to work my way through it, but I couldn't connect to it. And yes, I've read more K books than I can remember...shelves of them.

"It has occurred to me, brother, that wisdom may not be the end of everything. Goodness and kindliness are, perhaps, beyond wisdom." James Stephens

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #143
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I'm just asking for clarity, and sometimes it's lacking.

Who is not clear ? Obviously Krishnamurti was very clear on what he talked about. But people who heard Krishnamurti are the ones who are not clear. It is most likely the old age. Krishnamurti was very clear to me even though my English comprehension was poor when I first read the flight of the eagle but I could relate to what K said about everything because it was revolutionary.
When we get old our minds shrink and becomes local. We loose interest in every thing ,that includes the teachings and ourselves..

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #144
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
When we get old our minds shrink and becomes local. We loose interest in every thing ,that includes the teachings and ourselves..

How do you know this? Are you old? Have you personally experienced these conditions? Or are you just coming to another idiotic conclusion based on nothing but erroneous opinions, prejudice and ignorance?

You often, most often, have no facts just opinions. Are you aware of that?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #145
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I had a copy of "Thought As A System" and tried to work my way through it, but I couldn't connect to it.

The one thing I picked up in Bohm's book was his view of incoherence. The natural system, Nature, is coherent homo sapiens are not. Therefore, homo sapiens will not endure is this system of coherency. It can't. Otherwise the system, Nature, whatever wouldn't be coherent. That's almost verbatim and it certainly makes sense.

Our species is destroying the planet. Not only that but in the last 100 years or so we have managed to figure out how to destroy the ozone layer in the atmosphere. Also, I just read where there is more carbon in the atmosphere today than there was 3 million years ago. Three million years ago, the Pleistocene, we had mastodons, sabre tooth tigers and so on roaming the earth. The destruction of the forests is one of the main sources of this excessive carbon.

And then we are hopelessly divided into various religions that hate each other and nations that hate each other, and races that hate each other and on and on. Not to mention the worst excuse for a human being I have ever heard of as president of the United States. We're screwed as a species the question is will we take all other life with us?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #146
Thumb_kr Ken D United States 34 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The natural system, Nature, is coherent homo sapiens are not. Therefore, homo sapiens will not endure is this system of coherency.

Well, that assumes human beings are somehow outside of nature. That's the argument many religious traditions have put forward. Like the Catholics used to say....we're higher than the animals, but lower than the angels. That argument is suspect, unless one puts an excessive faith in reason (if such a thing even exists.)

"It has occurred to me, brother, that wisdom may not be the end of everything. Goodness and kindliness are, perhaps, beyond wisdom." James Stephens

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #147
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
How do you know this?

There is no how dude. By the way I accidentally push the recommend button on your post. Don't get too self-centered for that. You are the most self- centered person in this forum. Nobody cares if you went to the army or looked at k. Get a life dude.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #148
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Nobody cares if you went to the army or looked at k.

Well apparently you do. It seems to have stuck with you. Do you mind if I ask you why you are such an asshole?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #149
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

jack the liar wrote:
why you are such an asshole?

Don't put yourself so low. You must have learned that in the army . Krishnamurti and the Army don't go together . leave this site. You have trashed enough discussions in here. Eventually you will get sick (if you are not already)from your thrashings and leave here anyway. Nobody responds to you unless you beg them (like you begged ken).:-)

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #150
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Nobody responds to you unless you beg them

Do you realize that this line you wrote above is exactly what describes your own postings here? Look at all the threads that end with your name. No one is responding to so much of what you write.

Why do you suppose you feel you have to vilify me? Why are you competing with me? These are questions you need to answer for yourself or private message and not on the forum.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 10 Apr 2019.

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