Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is the ground on which inner silence may come about?


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Sun, 07 Apr 2019 #121
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D quoted K and DB The Ending of Time:
...K: In that ground there is no darkness as darkness, or light as light. In that ground, there is no division. Nothing is born of will, or time, or thought...

Darkness and light here are distinctions made by the mind, not the sensory perceptions that are very rapidly interpreted by the mind.

This quote seems unclear to the mind because it is K referencing what is, to him, reality: no division, will, time, or thought. The mind cannot reach here. So what is there when there is no division, time, will, thought? K and Bohm discover that there is movement, physical activity. I would say further, there is awareness, love.

They use the metaphor of "the ground" because this is the foundation that is present even underneath thought, will, time. Those are needed sometimes for a certain level of practicality, but even then, this ground of - I would say, clear openness - is present.

So K and DB are in discussion, which is by necessity verbal and to some degree intellectual, but K always pulls directly from the reality of silence - clear, simple, open awareness - and brings that actuality into the discussion, description, verbal exploration.

Of course, you are welcome to question and disagree with me but I offer that understanding, clarification of the quoted passage for your consideration.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 07 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #122
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Darkness and light here are distinctions made by the mind, not the sensory perceptions that are very rapidly interpreted by the mind.

This quote seems unclear to the mind because it is K referencing what is, to him, reality: no division, will, time, or thought. The mind cannot reach here. So what is there when there is no division, time, will, thought? K and Bohm discover that there is movement, physical activity. I would say further, there is awareness, love.

Idiot, please don't presume to translate K for us. That is what one self is constantly trying to do and not succeeding. Don't translate or explain K neither of you or anyone else, including myself, are prepared or qualified to do so.

When you make absolute statements about what the teaching is and then don't explain the reasoning, the rationale, or whatever, behind it then that leaves us what? We either have to take your word for it, accepting you as an authority, or we ignore it.

Opinions aren't of any real value on this site and many other places. There are facts that we have to see together, based on reasoning and evidence, or they aren't worth anything. No one is an authority on K.

THE BOOK OF LIFE, OCT. 10

A mind that gives an opinion about a fact is a narrow, limited, destructive mind ... You can translate the fact in one way, and I can translate it in another way. The translation of the fact is a curse which prevents us from seeing the actual fact and doing something about the fact. When you and I discuss our opinions about the fact, nothing is done about the fact; you can add perhaps more to the fact, see more nuances, implications, significance about the fact, and I may see less significance in the facts. But the fact cannot be interpreted; I cannot offer an opinion about the fact. It is so, and it is very difficult for a mind to accept the fact. We are always translating, we are always giving different meanings to it, according to our prejudices, conditionings, hopes, fears and all the rest of it. If you and I could see the fact without offering an opinion, interpreting, giving a significance, then the fact becomes much more alive—not more alive—the fact is there alone, nothing else matters; then the fact has its own energy which drives you in the right direction.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 08 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #123
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1303 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Idiot, please don't presume to translate K for us. That is what one self is constantly trying to do and not succeeding. Don't translate or explain K neither of you or anyone else,

Who on earth are you to tell us what not to do. Get a life dude.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #124
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1303 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Idiot, please don't presume to translate K for us. That is what one self is constantly trying to do and not succeeding. Don't translate or explain K neither of you or anyone else,

Who on earth are you to tell us what not to do. Get a life dude.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #125
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
It's confusing because Krishnamurti says the ground has a non-dualistic movement, but he also says that there's a movement in darkness. Now, really, what does any of this mean?

Yes, I appreciate what you are saying. It does seem that they were trying to feel their way into the inexpressible. As I said, K seems to draw on direct connection to what is being called the ground. DB may not have had this connection but he had an extraordinary ability to listen closely and to push K into clarification. Perhaps this time he was less successful at getting K to clarify.

I have shared some of my understanding. Understanding can be grounded in the real, or it can be speculation. Here is some more of my take, make of it what you will:

A beautiful tree is standing. It is quite still. Yet there is shimmer from the morning sun. The branches very gently sway in a breeze. A squirrel is busy in the tree. And it is connected to everything else. It is a flow, and unstoppable process, even though one may have to look closely to see the activity.

Someone else glances at the tree. Ah, yes beautiful. Now I have to be on my way. What was I thinking about? Oh, yeah. Something in my past or future that was troubling me...

The ground. And darkness. There is movement in both. Yet it is altogether different.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #126
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Who on earth are you to tell us what not to do. Get a life dude.

This from a guy who posts double posts and either is not awake enough to see them or doesn't know how to remove them. Learn how to post first before you tell someone else what not to do. And anyway I couldn't care less what you think. I have a life, a pretty good one, what about you?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 08 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #127
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

Ken I don't share your cynicism and your confusion in what K and Bohm pointed out. If you came to K when you were older it becomes much more difficult to overcome a life of conditioning and knowledge in general. I was lucky enough to have come across a book by K 47 years ago when I was, obviously, much younger. And even at that relatively young age I had already dropped a great deal of the conditioning society tries to saddle us with. I had dropped all belief in organized religion by the time I was 11 or 12. Several years later I also dropped any feeling for belonging to any particular nation, economic system or social matrix as the result of being drafted into the infantry and sent to Vietnam. This along with joining the counter-culture (hippies) when I got out of the army helped destroy that conditioning.

What the latter offered was the space to live life without having to fit into the usual and normal regimentation of life one had to fit into to find a decent job, get married, have kids and perpetuate to whole rotten rat-race of society that is destroying this planet.

Before I ever heard of K I was aware of my set views (conditioning) of life and of who or what I should be. I had complete, and still do, distain for the bourgeois view of life; the economic system, the political system, the works. A few years after I first became aware of K my girl friend, at the time, and I travelled to Ojai to see and hear K first hand. She was subsequently hired to teach at the Oak Grove School when it first opened in the new buildings which I, along with many others, helped build.

At that time many of the teachers lived at what used to be called Arya Vihara and now called the Pepper Tree Retreat. My girl friend and I lived there for about a year. When K was in town he lived a few hundred feet away in the Pine Cottage, now called the library. He held regular private talks in his living room for a small number of teachers and parents which I was able to attend. I spoke to him twice, briefly, all of which tended to make K seem more approachable and human and less intimidating, if that's the right word. It was also much easier to ask a question in this setting. Also, I was able to talk to some of the teachers at that time about what K was saying which may have helped a little to understand some things.

You can do what you want about your resistance to K. But does it really help to feed others who also can't or won't understand K and who feed on your cynicism to justify their own cynicism and inability to see what K was pointing out?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 08 Apr 2019.

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Mon, 08 Apr 2019 #128
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I'm not expressing cynicism, I'm just asking for clarity, and sometimes it's lacking.

OK. I agree with you about the clarity part. Bohm, for me and others, can be extremely difficult to understand. I am trying to read, again, his book THOUGHT AS A SYSTEM. It is very difficult. The book is a transcript of four talks, or seminars, he gave here in Ojai a few years before his death. He had a following of men, mostly, that had been involved with the KFA in various capacities for years.

The first K book I read was THINK ON THESE THINGS which I thought was really clear and addressing things that were of immediate interest to me. I felt like K was discussing and explaining things I was questioning myself but didn't actual realize I was until I read what he was saying. I found out later the book is a record of talks given to school children. I'm not sure exactly what ages. Anyway it was on the right level for me. It's a fascinating book.

Have you considered reading something by just K, I'm sure you probably have anyway, that does not involve David Bohm? I'm taking my own advice and leaving Bohm out of the equation for awhile and just reading books with K.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #129
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1303 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I'm just asking for clarity, and sometimes it's lacking.

Who is not clear ? Obviously Krishnamurti was very clear on what he talked about. But people who heard Krishnamurti are the ones who are not clear. It is most likely the old age. Krishnamurti was very clear to me even though my English comprehension was poor when I first read the flight of the eagle but I could relate to what K said about everything because it was revolutionary.
When we get old our minds shrink and becomes local. We loose interest in every thing ,that includes the teachings and ourselves..

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #130
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
When we get old our minds shrink and becomes local. We loose interest in every thing ,that includes the teachings and ourselves..

How do you know this? Are you old? Have you personally experienced these conditions? Or are you just coming to another idiotic conclusion based on nothing but erroneous opinions, prejudice and ignorance?

You often, most often, have no facts just opinions. Are you aware of that?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #131
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I had a copy of "Thought As A System" and tried to work my way through it, but I couldn't connect to it.

The one thing I picked up in Bohm's book was his view of incoherence. The natural system, Nature, is coherent homo sapiens are not. Therefore, homo sapiens will not endure is this system of coherency. It can't. Otherwise the system, Nature, whatever wouldn't be coherent. That's almost verbatim and it certainly makes sense.

Our species is destroying the planet. Not only that but in the last 100 years or so we have managed to figure out how to destroy the ozone layer in the atmosphere. Also, I just read where there is more carbon in the atmosphere today than there was 3 million years ago. Three million years ago, the Pleistocene, we had mastodons, sabre tooth tigers and so on roaming the earth. The destruction of the forests is one of the main sources of this excessive carbon.

And then we are hopelessly divided into various religions that hate each other and nations that hate each other, and races that hate each other and on and on. Not to mention the worst excuse for a human being I have ever heard of as president of the United States. We're screwed as a species the question is will we take all other life with us?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #132
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1303 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
How do you know this?

There is no how dude. By the way I accidentally push the recommend button on your post. Don't get too self-centered for that. You are the most self- centered person in this forum. Nobody cares if you went to the army or looked at k. Get a life dude.

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #133
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Nobody cares if you went to the army or looked at k.

Well apparently you do. It seems to have stuck with you. Do you mind if I ask you why you are such an asshole?

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Tue, 09 Apr 2019 #134
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1303 posts in this forum Offline

jack the liar wrote:
why you are such an asshole?

Don't put yourself so low. You must have learned that in the army . Krishnamurti and the Army don't go together . leave this site. You have trashed enough discussions in here. Eventually you will get sick (if you are not already)from your thrashings and leave here anyway. Nobody responds to you unless you beg them (like you begged ken).:-)

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #135
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Nobody responds to you unless you beg them

Do you realize that this line you wrote above is exactly what describes your own postings here? Look at all the threads that end with your name. No one is responding to so much of what you write.

Why do you suppose you feel you have to vilify me? Why are you competing with me? These are questions you need to answer for yourself or private message and not on the forum.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 10 Apr 2019.

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #136
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Well, that assumes human beings are somehow outside of nature.

No, of course, humans are not outside of Nature. Maybe instead of "Nature" I should have said Universe. The Universe is coherent but the parts that aren't, homo sapiens for example, eventually destroy themselves or are destroyed because of the incoherency. Bohm defined "coherency" as being logical and consistent. And yes, homo sapiens are part of the Universe which doesn't infer, at all, that we can't destroy ourselves.

Obviously homo sapiens can't continue to exist as we are and have been. We are destroying our environment. Our life-support systems are under attack by our unrestrained greed and general stupidity.

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #137
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 863 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Obviously homo sapiens can't continue to exist as we are and have been. We are destroying our environment. Our life-support systems are under attack by our unrestrained greed and general stupidity.

Hi Jack and all. I don't think many people would disagree that "unrestrained greed" and "general stupidity" are two central factors behind the way we as human beings are treating each other and the planet we live on. Krishnamurti says, I understand, that the chaos in society and the world is a reflection of what is going on in ourselves. By observing what is going on in ourselves we can change at an individual level and this is the only way to bring about change on a wider scale. There seems to be a great deal of truth in this.

However, where does that leave us with trying to change society? Here in Spain, some people are campaigning to save our very good public health system. I think on a human level that it's very important to have a good public health system that is open to all citizens. Isn't it compassionate for a society to try to take care of everybody's health? Surely one can see the importance of bringing about change in ourselves but at the same time be active in bringing about social change. I have no idea what Krishnamurti would say about this.

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #138
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Krishnamurti says, I understand, that the chaos in society and the world is a reflection of what is going on in ourselves. By observing what is going on in ourselves we can change at an individual level and this is the only way to bring about change on a wider scale. There seems to be a great deal of truth in this.

I wish I could find the part of a dialogue between David Bohm and K where Bohm asks K,... will humanity change in time to save itself and the world? Essentially, the answer was no. We won't change in time. So Bohm, being Bohm, asked then why bother to change? K, and I am paraphrasing here, responded by saying because it is the right thing to do.

It seems apparent that humanity is getting closer and closer to destroying much of the world and inevitably ourselves. I mean look at what the United States did three years ago. With less than half of the voters voting for Trump he was never-the-less elected into office. The level of corruption that was required to put this utterly despicable human being into office is difficult to even calculate. But it happened. And then there is Putin in Russia who stays in power and more recently Netanyahu of Israel. Evil, destructive and corrupt human beings all. And they aren't the only ones, the only political leaders who are wholly corrupt.

Sean how can things change for the better when we have such corrupt leaders and when the dominate economic system is one wholly based on greed called capitalism?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 10 Apr 2019.

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #139
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1432 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
However, where does that leave us with trying to change society? Here in Spain, some people are campaigning to save our very good public health system. I think on a human level that it's very important to have a good public health system that is open to all citizens. Isn't it compassionate for a society to try to take care of everybody's health?

Health care is important, it's amazing that given the forces of greed and corruption here in the US, that we have anything at all! I think that working to preserve or better what you have in Spain, is also "the right thing to do".

This may be all wrong of course

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Wed, 10 Apr 2019 #140
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1303 posts in this forum Offline

Change is an idea. Noone has changed in here. The ruthless remains ruthless even though he quotes krishnamurt and complains about the dictators. The fact is that we don't change. Krishnamurti asked us "why don't you change?" In answering that question one may find out why he doesn't change. Talking about change on the individual level or collective level without understanding the reason why we don't change is merely the activity of thought idolizing.

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #141
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 863 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Health care is important, it's amazing that given the forces of greed and corruption here in the US, that we have anything at all! I think that working to preserve or better what you have in Spain, is also "the right thing to do".

Hi Dan and all. I agree with you here Dan. The problem is that Krishnamurti often spoke against changing society and pointed out that changing ourselves is "the only revolution". But surely it's the right thing to do to resist the forces of greed to peacefully campaign to save a vital public service which is so important in so many people's lives.

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #142
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1432 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
The problem is that Krishnamurti often spoke against changing society and pointed out that changing ourselves is "the only revolution".

I don't see the problem Sean. I think that he was pointing out that a fundamental change can't take place in 'society' unless we ourselves are fundamentally changed. Because we are society. But I don't think that that implied that trying to bring some order into the chaos, into the brutal suffering that is going on in so many places, that that action is somehow 'prohibited', or of no value. Isn't it also that the studying of what K has said and written makes us more sensitive to the senselessness that is going on around us? The absurdness of the priorities?

This may be all wrong of course

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #143
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
This, of course, is nonsense, because nobody is ever totally free of society. In fact, without society, who would have raised, fed, and provided for Krishnamurti when he was a child, except his immediate family - who were also a part of and a product of society?

Wait Ken. Do you think that K spoke just to hear himself speak? Physically yes we all are dependent on the social network we live in to provide the necessities we need to live. We need food, clothes and shelter at the very minimum. Most of us need human contact; some social interchange.

It seems clear, to me, that K was referring to the conditioning of the individual by one's society. The conditioning of the dominate religion, economic system, political system and so on. We are speaking of the psychological conditioning of society that keeps us separated and in conflict with other nations, religions and economic systems. Even our pattern of thinking is conditioned by the society we live in.

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #144
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1303 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
why did he refrain from giving any public talks for the duration of the Second World War?

Could it be that he didn't like onions in his soup.:=)

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Thu, 11 Apr 2019 #145
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Well, if Krishnamurti was so insistent upon standing apart from the tyranny of the surrounding culture, why did he refrain from giving any public talks for the duration of the Second World War?

I assume you're joking so I won't bother to post the obvious answer to your above question.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 12 Apr 2019.

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Fri, 12 Apr 2019 #146
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1303 posts in this forum Offline

It is very odd that most people in this forum are hesitant to write something in this mediocre site. They are most likely hesitant because they don't want to be analyzed and be attacked by only one person in this site and we all know who. A vicious dog who is trained like a police dog to attack on demand. That is why no newcomer comments In this mediocre forum.

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Fri, 12 Apr 2019 #147
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1303 posts in this forum Offline

It is even more odd that we really don't relate to each other in this very mediocre site with mediocre members.
:=)

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Sun, 14 Apr 2019 #148
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 863 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I don't see the problem Sean. I think that he was pointing out that a fundamental change can't take place in 'society' unless we ourselves are fundamentally changed. Because we are society. But I don't think that that implied that trying to bring some order into the chaos, into the brutal suffering that is going on in so many places, that that action is somehow 'prohibited', or of no value. Isn't it also that the studying of what K has said and written makes us more sensitive to the senselessness that is going on around us? The absurdness of the priorities?

Hi Dan. Yes, I agree with everything you say here. Whether we like it or not, we live in society and so decisions have to be made about how that society is organised. We can spend money raised from taxes on weapons or on public health systems. I think it's important that money is spent constructively rather than destructively. So while I agree that change on a personal level is absolutely crucial, I don't think we can ignore what is going on around us in a wider sense and sometimes it is important to campaign peacefully for changes to the society we live in.

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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #149
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1382 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Could it be that he didn't like onions in his soup.:=)

One Self wrote:
It is even more odd that we really don't relate to each other in this very mediocre site with mediocre members.
:=)

And this is from the person who took up 30 % of the impute only of this topic.

Well, seeing the time, quantity and quality you deliver, the level of this forum appears mainly your responsibility

So if you would acting responsible you could leave this forum and give it a change to change the level instead of staying mediocre.

But because you are the person that you prove to be, you cannot do that.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 15 Apr 2019 #150
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5660 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen and Dan McDermott:

I hope you don't mind if I make a comment about the two posts above?

I have been reading Dr Bohm's book THOUGHT AS A SYSTEM which is an often difficult to follow and a very in depth discussion of thought and how thought works. Bohm brings out how we all tend to conceptualize things, many of the things, we have heard or read from K, for example, or elsewhere. Bohm goes on to point out how these concepts become rigid blocks of knowledge or "truths" that become part of our thought, our memory, and basically our self our center. Essentially, it becomes part of our conditioning, perhaps our new conditioning.

What I am trying to say, and maybe I'm not being clear, is that unless we are seeing change as if for the first time then it is something we have conceptualized into a neat little package. Am I being clear at all? Have either of you read Bohm's book which might help if you have.

You do understand that I am not disagreeing with what either of you said about change but rather I am trying to ask or point out; what do we do with the knowledge or understanding that we acquire? Does it become just another part of our conditioning? Another piece of knowledge that comes automatically, that we repeat reflexively but we are no longer attentive to it, the knowledge, is no longer in the present and fresh and new?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 17 Apr 2019.

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