Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is the ground on which inner silence may come about?


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Mon, 18 Mar 2019 #1
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 826 posts in this forum Offline

What is the ground on which inner silence may come about? You can watch and hear Krishnamurti talking about this here. The video lasts just over 12 minutes.

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Mon, 18 Mar 2019 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

The question put to K is a little clever, not intentionally, but nevertheless...

The questioner unerstands that there's no method to get to silence. Whether that understanding is merely intellectual or really seeing the truth, K questions. For it to be real seeing and not intellectual, must not silence actually be? And if silence actually is, then establishing some ground for silence to arise from is no longer relevant.

The reason the question is a little clever is because it is saying, "I see that there is no method, but is there a ground?" Meaning, "Okay. I cannot actively seek silence. But can I set up conditions so that silence may spontaneously come?" And that's simply a very clever way of seeking silence.

K's answer, in this video, is freedom. Set aside silence and look at things as they are, without opinions, without beliefs. See conflict and be free of it. See seeking and be free of it. See the mechanistic, habitual patterns of thought and be free of them. See nationalism, religions, and the various way we divide ourselves and be free of them.

Freely investigate, unencumbered by gurus, including K, by opinions, by ideas, etc. It is necessary to see the whole, all the aspects K speaks about, the image making, the divisions, and so on. To watch it all and see the truth of it all and to be free of it. Then silence is.

Because to see it all, the entire process, and to be free of it all, is silence.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 18 Mar 2019.

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Tue, 19 Mar 2019 #3
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 826 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
The question put to K is a little clever, not intentionally, but nevertheless...

Yes, I thought the question was interesting. I really had no idea how Krishnamurti would respond to it.

idiot ? wrote:
K's answer, in this video, is freedom.

Yes. He also mentions that silence comes about quite naturally when there is freedom. I suppose we all know too much to be free most of the time.

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Tue, 19 Mar 2019 #4
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I really had no idea how Krishnamurti would respond to it.

It's interesting because in different talks, K comes at it in different ways, yet also kind of in the same way.

Sometimes he talks about putting the house in order. Is that laying a kind of ground like the questioner is asking about? It is about noticing what's going on in your life and tending to it. It's another way of discussing seeing and being free.

Sometimes K says it's necessary to see the whole process. That, too, is seeing and freedom.

Sometimes he talks about self knowledge. Sometimes he talks about real meditation. All different angles, yet the same.

To me, as I've said, it's not enough to vaguely notice some things in your life and then to continue being violent, annoyed, uncaring, unobservant, etc. Complacency is incomplete. Most of us are accepting, which really means insensitive. We look away from the strife, suffering, the horror really. Therefore we continue to make more of it, to spread more violence.

K is about seeing what is AND transformation. Freedom is just another way to say transformation. Moment to moment transformation.

Freedom is from opinion, from the known, from division, from conditioning, which may include K conditioning. Moment to moment seeing what is and not being caught by the separate individual self that one creates from thought, from the past.

When there is real urgency for change, there has to be stopping, sitting down quietly, and just awareness of what is happening. Then from sitting it can move into motion, into relationship, into all activity.

Freedom really is love.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 19 Mar 2019.

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Tue, 19 Mar 2019 #5
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1133 posts in this forum Offline

It is interesting to see how thought calls for action all the time.
So what is that conflict that k says that you should be aware of and understand instead of seeking silence ? He says it is opinions(that we are full of.). We have to understand our own opinions about love, life,fear,relationship ,social medias,what else? Meditation,...

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Wed, 20 Mar 2019 #6
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 826 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Sometimes he talks about putting the house in order. Is that laying a kind of ground like the questioner is asking about?

I don't know. It would seem to be, wouldn't it? However, Krishnamurti doesn't say this in this particular video. He seems to stress that inner silence is a thing that happens naturally. Any seeking, wanting or inviting will only block this.

idiot ? wrote:
When there is real urgency for change, there has to be stopping, sitting down quietly, and just awareness of what is happening. Then from sitting it can move into motion, into relationship, into all activity.

This could well be true. Or can this "stopping" simply be done at any time? Surely we can be sitting on a train, on a bus, in a room, just observing what is going on around us without thought rushing in to judge and interpret everything.

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Wed, 20 Mar 2019 #7
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Or can this "stopping" simply be done at any time? Surely we can be sitting on a train, on a bus, in a room, just observing what is going on around us without thought rushing in to judge and interpret everything.

Of course, there can be awareness any time in any situation. (Although intense mental work may perhaps be an exception?)

You know, I'm a bit like the questioner in this video. (Maybe that's a little why you, Sean, brought it to our attention?) I feel that K is so pure in his presentation, that there can be no method, and that even the slightest seeking or intention is misplaced, that he leaves people with nothing. Since they can do nothing, they are somewhat aware but they just accept and therefore nothing changes. They become passive, docile, slightly aware of the conflict within and without but they are fine with it. So violence within and without continues.

Listen to K at about 7 minutes and 10 seconds into the video. "You're all seeking. Don't say we're not seeking." I wonder if he took in how strongly some of his followers can deny seeking, can passively just be okay with the cruel way that we treat each other? There can arise a dull clod of passivity.

To me we need to light a fire under ourselves and wake up! Come alive! This war inside and out demands attention! How can we continue to bang up against ourselves and the world? How have we become so numb, so insensitive to it?

We actually are doing things for reasons, seeking some result. So I say if intention is happening anyway that it can be directed into attention, into sitting down and seeing what is. There is the initial realizing that I'm doing things with intention, and then I shift my intention into an awareness that is free of intention.

This is messy. It is a seeking into not seeking.

K died saying no one gets it. [Listen to the video at 6:45: "But you say casually, 'Oh yes, I understand what K's talking about.' Which is nonsense."] Decades and decades of K talking and talking. And no one getting it. What complete failure!

The responsibility is on you and me. I may have to begin messy, not up to the purity of no method or even intention. But the alternative is no change, no transformation, helplessly watching as acrimony devours us.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 20 Mar 2019.

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Thu, 21 Mar 2019 #8
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 826 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
You know, I'm a bit like the questioner in this video. (Maybe that's a little why you, Sean, brought it to our attention?)

I just thought it was a very interesting question and one that I wanted to hear Krishnamurti responding to. Like I already said, I had no idea how K would answer.

idiot ? wrote:
Listen to K at about 7 minutes and 10 seconds into the video. "You're all seeking. Don't say we're not seeking." I wonder if he took in how strongly some of his followers can deny seeking, can passively just be okay with the cruel way that we treat each other? There can arise a dull clod of passivity.

Yes, we do indeed deny seeking. When we seek, do we get distracted from the here and now? I understand Krishnamurti's message to lay emphasis on individual responsibility for change. That means that what we do in the present has a huge impact on the people around us and perhaps on other people too. So instead of seeking, maybe I should tidy the house and pay greater attention to how I behave with the people around me. Is that how you see things idiot?

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Thu, 21 Mar 2019 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

K is saying, isn't he?, that we really are seeking, though we may deny it. And at heart seeking is looking for a method, a way into what he's talking about. He goes on to say, that's not going to work. As long as there is seeking, it's the self trying to prop itself up in one way or another. As long as you are boosting the self, even in seeking spiritual insight, or insight into life, then you are moving away from reality, because you are just building up thought, an intellectual understanding, which is a curtain covering reality.

K says see what is happening and be free of it.

I'm saying that person X sees what is happening to some degree but is not really free of it. He's still mired in it. He notices he gets annoyed with his wife and argues with her. But he continues doing it. He notices he gets frustrated driving in traffic and he drives too aggressively but it keeps happening. He doesn't transform.

Does this mean he's not really going into it, not really engaged, not really being aware of what is happening and seeing the implications? Perhaps. He is somewhat aware but not free.

So the question for X is how to really be free, how to transform. And as always in K teaching, there is no how. And X even sees why. Because "how" is thought, is a mental method, which boosts the self instead of discovering real insight. X feels stuck in his own anger and violence, aware of it, but without a method to proceed.

X is interested in the video. X feels the urgency for change. But K's talking about "being free" begs the question. Yes, being free is moment to moment transformation. But how is one to be free?

Again, K says there's no method.

So I say, and this is clearly wrong by K teaching, Mr. X please sit down quietly and just be aware. Just attend to what is, inside, outside, if there's a difference. And just maybe if you do this, there may be change. Maybe next time you're annoyed with your wife, it will be seen and immediately dropped. Same with driving frustration. Or any other problem.

Maybe I need intention toward awareness at first. Perhaps in sitting quietly, perhaps in daily life and interaction. That intention is concession. It is a slight "how." A method. But unless I proceed in this messy fashion, how can there be change?

In pure K, there is just seeing and transformation. And of course K is right. The intentionality and slight method I am talking about will have to be dropped. But without a kickstart, won't the car remain stalled?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 21 Mar 2019.

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Thu, 21 Mar 2019 #10
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5553 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K died saying no one gets it. [Listen to the video at 6:45: "But you say casually, 'Oh yes, I understand what K's talking about.' Which is nonsense."] Decades and decades of K talking and talking. And no one getting it. What complete failure!

K also said that seeking a result is the act of desire. The desire to become something else instead of staying with what is. With what K pointed out as what he called "fact" there is no success or failure. There is just seeing the fact. To say that no one, or to imply, that no one understood anything that K pointed out, which using the words "complete failure" implies is inaccurate. David Bohm, especially, but many other people as well, came to understand many things that K pointed out. Not just an intellectual acceptance put to be aware of these and others things as they are occurring.

There is the realization of mental conditioning, of identifying with our experiences, beliefs, and actions which expands the self by accumulation. Many people have realized these things, as just two examples, and more.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 21 Mar 2019.

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Thu, 21 Mar 2019 #11
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1133 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K is saying, isn't he?, that we really are seeking, though we may deny it. And at heart seeking is looking for a method, a way into what he's talking about. He goes on to say, that's not going to work. As long as there is seeking, it's the self trying to prop itself up in one way or another. As long as you are boosting the self, even in seeking spiritual insight, or insight into life, then you are moving away from reality, because you are just building up thought, an intellectual understanding, which is a curtain covering reality.

Each one of us seeks pleasure ,no? Some obviously and some subtly . Unless one doesn't understand the pleasure /fear thing one surely has not got it from k.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #12
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1133 posts in this forum Offline

The conflict that k warn us against is not a thing to be resolved by the limited conscious mind . The more we try to tame the unconscious the more failure we face to deal with. Humans are deep rooted self- destructive animals and the action of will cannot change it.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #13
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1133 posts in this forum Offline

So how is one to be free from the self -destructive nature of man who lacks patience and seeks immediate gratifications?

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #14
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1133 posts in this forum Offline

What did k say about our daily lives today? Not much or did he?

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #15
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 826 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
So I say, and this is clearly wrong by K teaching, Mr. X please sit down quietly and just be aware. Just attend to what is, inside, outside, if there's a difference. And just maybe if you do this, there may be change. Maybe next time you're annoyed with your wife, it will be seen and immediately dropped. Same with driving frustration. Or any other problem.

I think that whatever Krishnamurti says, our guiding principle has also to be common sense. Surely sitting down quietly and just being aware isn't going to do any harm. It might actually do some good. This is surely true as long as the sitting quietly doesn't become a mechanical practice that ends up dulling our senses rather than helping to open them up. Is this really "wrong by K teaching" as you say?

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #16
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Surely sitting down quietly and just being aware isn't going to do any harm. It might actually do some good... Is this really "wrong by K teaching" as you say?

He does advocate sitting quietly and just being aware. But elsewhere he warns against any method or even intentionality. So strictly speaking, by the latter standard, if there is the slightest hint of method or intention in your sitting, you've strayed.

I suppose the most "right" is to look into it for yourself, which is perhaps one of the most important K teachings.

My point here, as I have emphasized again and again, is: I am aware of my annoyance (which is really anger) at my friend. I do not judge it. I do not try to change it. I have no desire with respect to it. I watch it. Again I find myself annoyed. Again I watch it. Again I find myself annoyed. Again I watch it. And on and on. Seeing my annoyance. Watching it. It keeps coming back!

I say that is not really K teaching. Sure, there is some awareness. But not complete awareness. Because when there is complete awareness, there is transformation, freedom, love.

These cannot be sought. But when they don't come naturally, it ain't really what K was about.

That annoyance drops away only with full seeing which is freedom, transformation, love.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 22 Mar 2019.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #17
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

To go into the implications of annoyance a little further:

What is annoyance? It's a low level anger, isn't it? What is anger? It's an activated fear, isn't it? What is fear? It's denial of reality, isn't it?

I am annoyed because I have a self with thoughts and opinions and judgments, and something my friend is doing is triggering those. The reality of what my friend is doing is banging up against the me, the ideas that I have, and the justifications I make for those ideas. I reinforce my annoyance by making all kinds of justifications for it.

This annoyance is conflict. As long as I react with annoyance, with conflict, then I have covered over awareness, which is true unencumbered response, which is love.

Unless there is full awareness of all this, of all the implications, then just noticing my annoyance is incomplete and of limited meaning. Without awareness AND insight, I will be doomed to repeat it and to spread animosity in the world.

Annoyance is just one example. It can be any problem or conflict. I can be somewhat aware of it. And it will continue. Or there can be real awareness and real going into it. Do we have the caring, the passion, the energy to really, really investigate?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 22 Mar 2019.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #18
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

So does K say:

See that I'm a conflicted mess and just watch it and be fine with it and have no desire to change it, and see the conflict continue on and on?

Or does he say:

See that I'm a conflicted mess, watch it, realize I am it, and with insight into it, with the freedom from it that comes from seeing the truth of it, doesn't the conflicted mess drop away? And isn't there then something else altogether different, something energized, alive, responsive? Love.

You tell me. What does he say? And what do we do?

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #19
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1398 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
So does K say:

See that I'm a conflicted mess and just watch it and be fine with it and have no desire to change it, and see the conflict continue on and on?

I don't think that he puts it that way Idiot. First, calling yourself a "conflicted mess" is bringing a judgement about yourself, a 'naming' of the 'disturbance',right? It's already a negative. That 'judger' can't be anything but part of the "mess"....I don't think he says be "fine" with anything, but true he does say "watch it". As far as "desire to change" that also has to be looked at as it takes all sorts of subtle forms to move away from 'what is'. The desire to find "Love" for example or any other state. No?

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #20
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I don't think that he puts it that way Idiot.

You're right. These are my words, not his. So they reflect my view which is not his.

But please respond to my central question.

Is K teaching just about awareness with the violent world continuing inside and out?

Or is it about awareness AND transformation?

Don't we often pay attention but there is still no real change?

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #21
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
As far as "desire to change" that also has to be looked at as it takes all sorts of subtle forms to move away from 'what is'. The desire to find "Love" for example or any other state.

Yes, the desire for love or any other state misses the mark, because it is a preconceived idea about love or some state. Yes, that desire, that idea moves away from what is. Yes, that desire can be subtle. Desiring love won't bring it about. Neither will lack of desire for love.

But to use K's words, "the present crisis" demands change. The factual situation of our ongoing cruelty to each other is its own "urgency." The drive for real change is not some personal desire, however strong or subtle. It comes directly out of what is.

But we are dead, insensitive to the present crisis. Therefore we go on perpetuating it, being mildly aware. Therefore, despite my awareness of my animosity, it keeps returning. And the war rages on, inside and out.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 22 Mar 2019.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #22
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1398 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Is K teaching just about awareness with the violent world continuing inside and out?

Or is it about awareness AND transformation?

I would say the latter but perhaps 'attention' would be the better word since when asked if he could describe his teaching in one word that was the word he used.

idiot ? wrote:
But to use K's words, "the present crisis" demands change. The factual situation of our ongoing cruelty to each other is its own "urgency." The drive for real change is not some personal desire, however strong or subtle. It comes directly out of what is.

How do you square that with his 'secret': "I don't mind what happens"? Is he pointing to a radically different approach? I think it is...so radical that it has been missed for the most part all these thousands of years with our 'conditioned' approaches. Is it that 'minding' anything psychologically brings about suppression and substitution?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 22 Mar 2019.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #23
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
How do you square that with his 'secret': "I don't mind what happens"?

How do you square "I don't mind what happens" with "My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free?"

I square it like this: On a personal level, I'm not concerned with picking and choosing, with favoring this opinion or that, with whether broccoli or carrots are served for lunch, with whether it rains or is sunny. What others consider good things happening or bad things happening is unimportant. What is important is to be free of all that, free of the known, free of the self that separates, free of all the trappings and clinging and violence that that entails.

This freedom does not come about through mere acceptance. It doesn't come about through desiring it or through some technique. It is a radical revolution that comes about when there is awareness and insight. It is moment to moment transformation.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 22 Mar 2019.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #24
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1133 posts in this forum Offline

We are born with conflict and we go through life struggling to earn a living and then we retire and wait for death to come and take us away. No amount of attention or action from the conscious mind can change the fact. We can see what happens in the world . The free societies are becoming more and more enclosed. Fear is speeding faster than ever. What we talk about in here is merely a romantic hope that doesn't exist. If we were to change we would have done it by now. We are stuck with thought and desire for the rest of our lives. That is the on going fact.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #25
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
If we were to change we would have done it by now. We are stuck with thought and desire for the rest of our lives.

That is what I'm saying describes many of us. We have listened to K, we have been somewhat aware in daily life, and yet things continue. Perhaps we have convinced ourselves that we don't mind what happens. Perhaps we have convinced ourselves that we are just watching and have no desire to change anything. And we think that solves it: Any way the wind blows.

Come on! K is talking about something quite beyond passive submission. Love, freedom, transformation, action without idea, the immensity... You know these are all in what K teaches but they remain vague mirages. Why?!!! We have settled for crumbs. We are nowhere near the perfume. The description is not the thing but all we have is the description, not direct fact.

K teaching without real love isn't K teaching at all. But that is what many of us have settled for.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 22 Mar 2019.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #26
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1398 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
How do you square "I don't mind what happens" with "I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man unconditionally free?"

I don't see it as a contradiction. If it happened, then only a handful of people could bring about an order that might save Man. If it didn't, then he did what he could do and as he said to D. Bohm, he did it because it was the "right" thing to do. For me I'd say that he was a 'sower' of seeds of truth. For those of us that listened, they will bring forth what they will. Learning to 'tend' without effort, without expectation, without motive, is an ongoing delicate affair. Preparing the soil. No manual. No guide.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #27
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1133 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
That is what I'm saying describes many of us. We have listened to K, we have been somewhat aware in daily life, and yet things continue. Perhaps we have convinced ourselves that we don't mind what happens. Perhaps we have convinced ourselves that we are just watching and have no desire to change anything. And we think that solves it: Any way the wind blows.

I don't think that we have hypnotized ourselves by saying everything is alright . The conflict that thought has created and creates is beyond our average intelligence to tackle. The rotten society that is decaying sucks every newcomer into it's demise. Money rules and those without it are abandoned . And those with money and wealth surround themselves with people who lie and cheat for living. Thought is the enemy of mankind and yet we all worship it's products,the wealth and power that it brings. As long as we depend on the society suffering is inevitable. And living outside of the grid of society has it's own challenges that most people cannot take due to fear and thought. Cutting it all short we live in a prison that we and the society has created by thought and we don't know how to break free from the prison of our own makings.

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Fri, 22 Mar 2019 #28
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 594 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I don't see it as a contradiction.

Neither do I see the urgency for change that the present crisis demands as a contradiction with "I don't mind what happens," as I explained above. K did care and therefore spoke for decades. Not about the trivial, with which most of us concern ourselves, but about the fundamental, the freedom to inquire, the freedom from the known.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 22 Mar 2019.

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Sat, 23 Mar 2019 #29
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5553 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Is K teaching just about awareness with the violent world continuing inside and out?

Or is it about awareness AND transformation?

idiot ? wrote:
K teaching without real love isn't K teaching at all. But that is what many of us have settled for.

Don't you, and others on here, ever get tired of inventing these meaningless intellectual exercises leading to nowhere? But then it's much easier and more entertaining to speculate and come up with more garbage than it is to have a quiet mind that observes.

Don't you see that when you ask a question based on false and erroneous premises it can only lead to false and erroneous solutions? Are you really looking for answers and if so why? You want results, solutions or are you trying to understand, see what is, understand the present action without making judgements about it? All of your questions are judgements that only lead to endless and meaningless intellectual discussions.

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Sat, 23 Mar 2019 #30
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1133 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Don't YOU, and others on here, ever get tired of inventing these meaningless intellectual exercises leading to nowhere? But then it's much easier and more entertaining to speculate and come up with more garbage than it is to have a quiet mind that observes.

Don't YOU see that when you ask a question based on false and erroneous premises it can only lead to false and erroneous solutions? Are YOU really looking for answers and if so why? YOU want results, solutions or are YOU trying to understand, see what is, understand the present action without making judgements about it? All of YOUR questions are judgements that only lead to endless and meaningless intellectual discussions.

What a crappy judgment from jack the aggressor. He invites idiot to a fight. And he thinks he understands K more than others!

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