Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

What is passion?


Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 146 in total
Mon, 25 Feb 2019 #31
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: I said the root cause of fear is thought. Not any thought. But thought in the form of time and measure.

I'm not sure that's the root. That's merely the verbal explanation of the root. Do you see the difference? That's the root as explained by thought itself. That's the root as presented by the expert. Do you follow what I mean?

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Mon, 25 Feb 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 25 Feb 2019 #32
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Paul Dimmock wrote:

So what is the root of all your fear?

Okay ,let's approach the problem of fear from a different angle. What is the relationship between fear and attachment? Does fear create attachment or attachment creates fear?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 25 Feb 2019 #33
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
So what is the root of all your fear? This is not a personal question. Without bringing in the experts, what is at the root of fear?

Hi Paul
The root of all fear seems to me the loss of all that I have or even -if that is a difference at the psychological level - what I am.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 26 Feb 2019 #34
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
That's exactly why I am asking the question. One may have a dozen interests, a dozen hobbies; one may be involved in a dozen projects.

No, you're asking the question because you're addicted to just rambling on about things that pop into your mind. So, no comment about what I pointed out above just a continuation of laying out opinions and coming to conclusions. And time IS measure. You are not really going to accept that senseless sentence as a legitimate explanation of fear are you?

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Tue, 26 Feb 2019 #35
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Therefore this is not about talking anything to death. It is that in talking this over together we start to see that what we are talking about is not as clear and as fixed as we first assume.

You are just playing games with words. You aren't talking about anything you are experiencing at the moment you are talking about things in general. This kind of discussion, your kind of discussion, is killing this forum. Maybe it's inevitable that all forums like this end with a flood of meaningless words and ego driven attempts to intellectualize what is beyond experience and knowledge.

Do you know the difference between actually seeing something in the present, feeling something, being aware of something and talking about any old subject that pops into your mind?

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Tue, 26 Feb 2019 #36
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
I'm not sure that's the root. That's merely the verbal explanation of the root. Do you see the difference? That's the root as explained by thought itself. That's the root as presented by the expert. Do you follow what I mean?

I do follow what you say but apparently you don't follow what I say. We don't need to go back to something we said it already . I post it again.

Oneself: "The word is not the thing,right? The word fear or passion is not the reality of fear or passion. Right? I think one has to bear in mind that the symbol is never the actual."
Is there something that I missed? The description is also never the described.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 26 Feb 2019 #37
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine: You are just playing games with words. You aren't talking about anything you are experiencing at the moment you are talking about things in general. This kind of discussion, your kind of discussion, is killing this forum. Maybe it's inevitable that all forums like this end with a flood of meaningless words and ego-driven attempts to intellectualise what is beyond experience and knowledge. ... Do you know the difference between actually seeing something in the present, feeling something, being aware of something and talking about any old subject that pops into your mind?

For me there is only the one subject: our relationship. In this is included all the other things we may or may not talk about: passion, fear, thought, time, measure, and on and on. But basically it is about you and me and nothing else. There is nothing else outside of this; it is this relationship that we are experiencing right now and right here. It may not be immediate, face-to-face, but it is all we have. And have we got the passion to actually meet one another? Are we able to meet without a trace of fear? These are the questions we are faced with. It is the easiest thing in the world to meet these questions with quick, pat answers; that is usual the intellectual response. Or, we turn away and say, 'I'm not interested.' But this isn't any old subject; this is you and me and the rest of our lives.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Tue, 26 Feb 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 26 Feb 2019 #38
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: Is there something that I missed? The description is also never the described.

Yes, but you are still giving me words. What is at the root of fear? How shall we approach this question?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 26 Feb 2019 #39
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam: The root of all fear seems to me the loss of all that I have or even -if that is a difference at the psychological level - what I am.

Death - that's the root, isn't it?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 26 Feb 2019 #40
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Yes, but you are still giving me words.

Maybe we should give you flowers :-) All we have is words. English is all words and you have no problem writing it . Read between the lines, there is no words there.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 26 Feb 2019 #41
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: All we have is words. ... Read between the lines, there is no words there.

Alright, so can we meet fear without words, without the description? In other words, can we meet fear and not make any response to it at all? Do you understand my question?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 26 Feb 2019 #42
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Alright, so can we meet fear without words, without the description? In other words, can we meet fear and not make any response to it at all? Do you understand my question?

Yes ,I understand your question. You say when next time fear showed up don't run away from it , Face it. And you say have no response to fear. That last part is not clear. What kind of response can you have to fear. Fear is not different than you ,right?
Now the question is that do I know how to look at fear without condemnation ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 27 Feb 2019 #43
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Death - that's the root, isn't it?

I don't know what death is, so I can't say yes or no.

What I do know is losing everything where I believed in was permanent........,
my faith, my marriage, my parents, an easy live.
What I do know is that I didn't chose to live and hopefully come never in the position to choose to die, although I see that sometimes live is as such that It's no longer worthy of calling it living.

The word 'death' have such a heavy connotation and would rather be an expression of knowing the Teaching than of knowing live !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 27 Feb 2019 #44
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: Yes, I understand your question. You say when next time fear showed up don't run away from it. Face it. And you say have no response to fear. That last part is not clear. What kind of response can you have to fear. Fear is not different than you, right? Now the question is that do I know how to look at fear without condemnation?

But looking at fear without condemnation is also a response. Fear is not different from me; I am fear. How shall we meet this fact? It is not about looking at it. We can only look at something when we are separate from it. But with this, we are not separate.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 27 Feb 2019 #45
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam: I don't know what death is, so I can't say yes or no. What I do know is losing everything where I believed in was permanent: my faith, my marriage, my parents, an easy life. What I do know is that I didn't chose to live and hopefully come never in the position to choose to die, although I see that sometimes life is as such that it's no longer worthy of calling it living.
The word 'death' has such a heavy connotation and would rather be an expression of knowing the Teaching than of knowing life!

That's the point: I don't know what death is. But it is coming, whether I know what it is or not. So it is the perpetual shadow of life. Therefore, what is death? Not the idea, but the actuality.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 27 Feb 2019 #46
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
That's the point: I don't know what death is. But it is coming, whether I know what it is or not.

if it could, I would tell you after I'm death ;-)
In the meantime, I will be silent about it and not speculating!

Paul Dimmock wrote:
So it is the perpetual shadow of life.

can we jump over our own shadow ?
Is there a shadow if one is a light for oneself ?
there is only shadow if one sees the light, which is blinding us ......
or one relies on the light which lies after us...... or moving beside us !

enjoying a starry sky in a natural environment that is not illuminated by man,
I do not miss my shadow!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 28 Feb 2019.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 27 Feb 2019 #47
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

Paul, unfortunately you don't have the sufficient respect for my questions. Should I do the same to your questions. And if I do the same do you think that we could still have a dialogue ? No . What do you mean by saying not condemning is a response. Is death a response? Is silence a response. Is not answering an answer . let's not make things up and go with common sense.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 27 Feb 2019 #48
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
That's the point: I don't know what death is. But it is coming, whether I know what it is or not.

You, apparently, are referring to physical death. How do you look into physical death? There are other kinds of dying that can be looked into. Can one die to our past, die to our conditioning; our beliefs, opinions, experiences, and all the rest of the psychological accumulation of a life-time?

This is the "death" that interests me. Without understanding, seeing, our conditioning what happens? We go on with our opinions and beliefs and endless conclusions based on that accumulation of knowledge that blocks us from seeing what is, the present.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 28 Feb 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 28 Feb 2019 #49
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: What do you mean by saying not condemning is a response?

Condemning is a response; that's obvious. But not condemning is also a response, one which has its roots in condemnation. It is still about looking at fear as though one is separate from it. That's the point, isn't it? If we are not separate from fear - and it seems we are both saying that we are not separate - then there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. Even just to look at fear, either with or without condemning it, is an action founded on this division. Do you see what I am saying?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 28 Feb 2019 #50
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Therefore, what is death? Not the idea, but the actuality.

Paul this not only applies to you but to all of us. How can we know what "actuality" is if we don't understand our own conditioning? Understand our own programming from birth through which we filter everything we see, think about and believe in?

It seems to me that the first order of business is to watch that conditioning, be aware of our conditioning without wanting to do anything with it. Not change it, or judge it but just to give it, the conditioning, full attention/awareness.

Our conditioning, programming, is who we are. All the things we have learned from, been told by our parents, siblings, friends, teachers, television and other media. We need knowledge in order to live. We need it to learn a language, to drive an automobile and all the practical activities that make our daily lives possible. Then there is the knowledge that forms who we think we are. That molds our responses to life's challenges. The knowledge, the memories, that are the basis of our responses to insults, flattery and so on.

The images we have of ourselves is the total accumulation of experience and knowledge we have gathered in our lives. K pointed this out in dozens of ways and I am just repeating what he has said. Don't we have to deal with this conditioning, this programming, first before we take on the abstract questions in our lives?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 28 Feb 2019 #51
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine: You, apparently, are referring to physical death. How do you look into physical death? There are other kinds of dying that can be looked into. Can one die to our past, die to our conditioning, our beliefs, opinions, experiences, and all the rest of the psychological accumulation of a life-time? This is the death that interests me.

I am talking about the whole thing, the physical and the psychological. At the end of life, these two forms of death come together as one event. Physically, we leave behind the body. But psychologically, what is there to leave behind? Psychologically, what is there to die to? The body is alive; it has all the attributes of life. But the psychological accumulation, is that ever a living thing to which one dies? Or it is something already dead. Can we explore this question a little?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 28 Feb 2019 #52
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
But looking at fear without condemnation is also a response. Fear is not different from me; I am fear. How shall we meet this fact? It is not about looking at it. We can only look at something when we are separate from it. But with this, we are not separate.

So the phrase observer is the observed has not clicked in for you. I don't like to argue with your statement that by looking at something you are in conflict with that thing. You are separate and in conflict only when you name that emotion. The naming is part of thought condemning or justifying the thing. Is it so hard to understand these simple things?! Do we have to do the merry go round for ever in this forum?

This post was last updated by One Self Thu, 28 Feb 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 28 Feb 2019 #53
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: So the phrase observer is the observed has not clicked in for you.

What are you talking about? You are ignoring my last post and going back to an older post. I just said it: if we are not separate from fear then there is nothing we can do about it. Put it in your words as the observer is the observed, if you wish, but it comes to the same thing.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 28 Feb 2019 #54
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

Here Krishnamurti explains it well. I copied from it from Rich's discission(thanks for sharing Krishnamurti Mr Rich).

Questioner: You tell us to observe our actions in daily life but what is the entity that decides what to observe and when? Who decides if one should observe?

Krishnamurti: Do you decide to observe? Or do you merely observe? Do you decide and say, 'I am going to observe and learn'? For then there is the question: 'Who is deciding?' Is it will that says, 'I must'? And when it fails, it chastises itself further and says, 'I must, must, must; in that there is conflict; therefore the state of mind that has decided to observe is not observation at all.

You are walking down the road, somebody passes you by, you observe and you may say to yourself, 'How ugly he is; how he smells; I wish he would not do this or that'. You are aware of your responses to that passer-by, you are aware that you are judging, condemning or justifying; you are observing. You do not say, 'I must not judge, I must not justify'. In being aware of your responses, there is no decision at all. You see somebody who insulted you yesterday. Immediately all your hackles are up, you become nervous or anxious, you begin to dislike; be aware of your dislike, be aware of all that, do not "decide' to be aware. Observe, and in that observation there is neither the"observer' nor the 'observed' - there is only observation taking place. The 'observer' exists only when you accumulate in the observation; when you say, `He is my friend because he has flattered me', or, 'He is not my friend, because he has said something ugly about me, or something true which I do not like,. That is accumulation through observation and that accumulation is the observer. When you observe without accumulation, then there is no judgement. You can do this all the time; in that observation naturally certain definite decisions are made, but the decisions are natural results, not decisions made by the observer who has accumulated.

The Impossible Question | 5th Public Talk, Saanen, 26th July

1970

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 28 Feb 2019 #55
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

Let's read it again. Maybe it will sink in.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 01 Mar 2019 #56
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
I am talking about the whole thing, the physical and the psychological. At the end of life, these two forms of death come together as one event.

Paul, you've never read of K talking about dying to your thoughts, beliefs , your conditioning? It's our conditioning that keeps us trapped and not really living. You've read, maybe, where we are our thoughts? You never read where K talked about conditioning and the need to "die" to all that? What's the point of waiting to the end of your life to die to what is enslaving us now? Why are you here Paul? Just to philosophize about whatever pops into your head? You obviously have very little or no idea of what K was talking about.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 01 Mar 2019 #57
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

This is what I'm talking about Paul. Until you understand this how can you discuss dying? How can you discuss something when you don't know what it is. We're not talking about the traditional view of dying. This is a site where you go beyond tradition, beyond your conditioning.

Public Talk 8 Saanen, Switzerland
August 10, 1961
The conscious mind cannot observe the unconscious.
The educated, recent mind cannot possibly inquire into the unconscious, which is old, which is the residue of time, of the race, of experiences.
The unconscious is the repository of infinite knowledge of things that have been.
Examining and interpreting fragmentarily strengthens the layers of the unconscious, hidden mind.
The unconscious must be approached negatively because you don't know what it is.
If there were no tomorrow, or the next minute, would there be fear?
Dying to thought is the ending of fear.
The whole content of consciousness is a process of thought, therefore it is bound within time.
Can the mind be free of time?
Dying is dying to thought.
Various questions were asked by the audience at the end of the talk.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 01 Mar 2019 #58
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Krishnamurti: Do you decide to observe? Or do you merely observe? Do you decide and say, 'I am going to observe and learn'? For then there is the question: 'Who is deciding?' Is it will that says, 'I must'? And when it fails, it chastises itself further and says, 'I must, must, must; in that there is conflict; therefore the state of mind that has decided to observe is not observation at all.

I think that is the most important statement that k ever made. I might be wrong but who cares?:-)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 01 Mar 2019 #59
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
I think that is the most important statement that k ever made. I might be wrong but who cares?:-)

And yet it's completely worthless. We don't know if this was ever said because you have neither the consideration nor the education to provide a simple reference so someone who is interested can read the context from which the quote was taken.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 01 Mar 2019 #60
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1456 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And yet it's completely worthless.

To a blind man Krishnamurti is worthless. In fact he is anti-k and self centered .The reference was posted on the post #54 for those who have eyes.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 146 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)