Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The problem of fear.


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Tue, 08 Jan 2019 #1
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1178 posts in this forum Offline

Somehow anything we talk about ends up with fear. Why has man not being able to resolve the problem of fear ? Is it because of pleasure?

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #2
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

You are asking why the problem of disorder cannot resolve the problem of disorder.

Humankind IS the fear. It cannot sit on the sideline and resolve what it sees as a 'problem'. It IS the problem. Is that too difficult to face up to?

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #3
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

And - inventing an opposite - 'pleasure' - and blaming that, will not resolve anything.

Just more rattling around in the corridor of sorrows - of opposites - has never, and will never, resolve anything.

Time to deal with reality surely! Playing around with entertaining juxtapositions has brought humanity to the disaster it is.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #4
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Questioner: I used to take drugs but now I am free of them. Why am I so frightened of everything? I wake up in the mornings paralysed with fear. I can hardly move out of bed. I’m frightened of going outside, and I’m frightened of being inside. Suddenly as I drive along this fear comes upon me, and I spend a whole day sweating, nervous, apprehensive, and at the end of the day I’m completely exhausted. Sometimes, though very rarely, in the company of a few intimate friends or at the house of my parents, I lose this fear; I feel quiet, happy, completely relaxed. As I came along in my car today, I was frightened of coming to see you, but as I came up the drive and walked to the door I suddenly lost this fear, and now as I sit here in this nice quiet room I feel so happy that I wonder what I was ever frightened about. Now I have no fear. I can smile and truthfully say: I’m very glad to see you! But I can’t stay here for ever, and I know that when I leave here the cloud of fear will engulf me again. That is what I’m faced with. I’ve been to ever so many psychiatrists and analysts, here and abroad, but they merely delve into my memories of childhood – and I’m fed up with it because the fear hasn’t gone at all.

Krishnamurti: Let’s forget childhood memories and all that nonsense, and come to the present. Here you are, and you say you are not frightened now; you’re happy for the moment and can hardly imagine the fear you were in. Why have you no fear now? Is it the quiet, clear, well-proportioned room, furnished with good taste, and this sense of welcoming warmth which you feel? Is that why you are not frightened now?

Questioner: That’s part of it. Also perhaps it is you. I heard you talk in Switzerland, and I’ve heard you here, and I feel a kind of deep friendship for you. But I don’t want to depend on nice houses, welcoming atmospheres and good friends in order not to be afraid. When I go to my parents I have this same feeling of warmth. But it is deadly at home; all families are deadly with their little enclosed activities, their quarrels, and the vulgarity of all that loud talk about nothing, and their hypocrisy. I’m fed up with it all. And yet, when I go to them and there is this certain warmth, I do feel, for a while, free of this fear. The psychiatrists can’t tell me what my fear is about. They call it a “floating fear”. It’s a black, bottomless, ghastly pit. I’ve spent a great deal of money and time on being analysed and it really hasn’t helped at all. So what am I to do?

Krishnamurti: Is it that being sensitive you need a certain shelter, a certain security, and not being able to find it, you are frightened of the ugly world? Are you sensitive?

Questioner: Yes, I think so. Perhaps not in the way you mean, but I am sensitive. I don’t like the noise, the bustle, the vulgarity of this modern existence and the way they throw sex at you everywhere you go today, and the whole business of fighting your way to some beastly little position. I am really frightened of all this – not that I can’t fight and get a position for myself, but it makes me sick with fear.

Krishnamurti: Most people who are sensitive need a quiet shelter and a warm friendly atmosphere. Either they create it for themselves or depend on others who can give it to them – the family the wife, the husband, the friend. Have you got such a friend?

Questioner: No. I’m frightened of having such a friend. I’m frightened of being dependent on him.

Krishnamurti: So there is this issue; being sensitive, demanding a certain shelter, and depending on others to give you that shelter. There is sensitivity, and dependence; the two often go together. And to depend on another is to fear losing him. So you depend more and more, and then the fear increases in proportion to your dependence. It is a vicious circle. Have you enquired why you depend? We depend on the postman, on physical comfort and so on; that’s quite simple. We depend on people and things for our physical well-being and survival; it is quite natural and normal. We have to depend on what we may call the organizational side of society. But we also depend psychologically, and this dependence, though comforting, breeds fear. Why do we depend psychologically?

Questioner: You’re talking to me about dependence now, but I came here to discuss fear.

Krishnamurti: Let’s examine them both because they are interrelated as we shall see. Do you mind if we discuss them both? We were talking about dependence. What is dependence? Why does one psychologically depend on another? Isn’t dependence the denial of freedom? Take away the house, the husband, the children, the possessions – what is a man if all these are removed? In himself he is insufficient, empty, lost. So out of this emptiness, of which he is afraid, he depends on property, on people and beliefs. You may be so sure of all the things you depend on that you can’t imagine ever losing them – the love of your family, and the comfort. Yet fear continues. So we must be clear that any form of psychological dependence must inevitably breed fear, though the things you depend on may seem almost indestructible. Fear arises out of this inner insufficiency, poverty and emptiness. So now, do you see, we have three issues – sensitivity, dependence and fear? The three are interrelated. Take sensitivity: the more sensitive you are (unless you understand how to remain sensitive without dependence, how to be vulnerable without agony), the more you depend. Then take dependence: the more you depend, the more there is disgust and the demand to be free. This demand for freedom encourages fear, for this demand is a reaction, not freedom from dependence.

Questioner: Are you dependent on anything?

Krishnamurti: Of course I’m dependent physically on food, clothes and shelter, but psychologically, inwardly, I’m not dependent on anything – not on gods, not on social morality, not on belief, not on people. But it is irrelevant whether or not I am dependent. So, to continue: fear is the awareness of our inner emptiness, loneliness and poverty, and of not being able to do anything about it. We are concerned only with this fear which breeds dependence, and which is again increased by dependence. If we understand fear we also understand dependence. So to understand fear there must be sensitivity to discover, to understand how it comes into being. If one is at all sensitive one becomes conscious of one’s own extraordinary emptiness – a bottomless pit which cannot be filled by the vulgar entertainment of drugs nor by the entertainment of the churches, nor the amusements of society: nothing can ever fill it. Knowing this the fear increases. This drives you to depend, and this dependence makes you more and more insensitive. And knowing this is so, you are frightened of it. So our question now is: how is one to go beyond this emptiness, this loneliness – not how is one to be self-sufficient, not how is one to camouflage this emptiness permanently?

Questioner: Why do you say it is not a question of becoming self-sufficient?

Krishnamurti: Because if you are self-sufficient you are no longer sensitive; you become smug and callous, indifferent and enclosed. To be without dependence, to go beyond dependence, doesn’t mean to become self-sufficient. Can the mind face and live with this emptiness, and not escape in any direction?

Questioner: It would drive me mad to think I had to live with it for ever.

Krishnamurti: Any movement away from this emptiness is an escape. And this flight away from something, away from “what is,” is fear. Fear is flight away from something. What is is not the fear; it is the flight which is the fear, and this will drive you mad, not the emptiness itself. So what is this emptiness, this loneliness? How does it come about? Surely it comes through comparison and measurement, doesn’t it? I compare myself with the saint, the master, the great musician, the man who knows, the man who has arrived. In this comparison I find myself wanting and insufficient: I have no talent, I am inferior, I have not “realised; I am not, and that man is. So out of measurement and comparison comes the enormous cavity of emptiness and nothingness. And the flight from this cavity is fear. And the fear stops us from understanding this bottomless pit. It is a neurosis which feeds upon itself. And again, this measurement, this comparison, is the very essence of dependence. So we are back again at dependence, a vicious circle.

Questioner: We have come a long way in this discussion and things are clearer. There is dependence; is it possible not to depend? Yes, I think it is possible. Then we have the fear; is it possible not to run away from emptiness at all, which means, not to escape through fear? Yes, I think it is possible. That means we are left with the emptiness. Is it possible then to face this emptiness since we have stopped running away from it through fear? Yes, I think it is possible. Is it possible finally, not to measure, not to compare? For if we have come this far, and I think we have, only this emptiness remains, and one sees that this emptiness is the outcome of comparison. And one sees that dependence and fear are the outcome of this emptiness. So there is comparison, emptiness, fear, dependence. Can I really live a life without comparison, without measurement?

Krishnamurti: Of course you have to measure to put a carpet on the floor!

Questioner: Yes. I mean can I live without psychological comparison?

Krishnamurti: Do you know what it means to live without psychological comparison when all your life you have been conditioned to compare – at school, at games, at the university and in the office? Everything is comparison. To live without comparison! Do you know what it means? It means no dependence, no self-sufficiency, no seeking, no asking; therefore it means to love. Love has no comparison, and so love has no fear. Love is not aware of itself as love, for the word is not the thing.

Urgency of change.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #5
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1178 posts in this forum Offline

We can't justify fear, that is silly. Krishnamurti is the only person who has gone into the question of fear above (thank goodness).

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #6
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
We can't justify fear, that is silly.

No-one is justifying fear. What motivates that comment from you?

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #7
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Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Humankind IS the fear.

That is the same thing as saying fear is humankind. Justifying fear by making it to be impossible to be free of. If you read the above Krishnamurti article and understand it then we can proceed. Otherwise we get caught in justifications and condemnations. I don't claim that I know anything ,that is why I am willing to learn from Krishnamurti. If you say you know then that is the end of any investigation.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #8
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Justifying fear by making it to be impossible to be free of.

The self can never be free of fear.

Do you read K to listen to the actual depth of what he points out, or to pick and choose only what you want to hear?

Humankind IS fear. Self IS fear. Humankind IS self. Self IS disorder. Look at what is actually happening to the earth. That is what is important. Not this endless playing around with words.

There IS NO justification for the havoc that humanity is wreaking. Face the fact!

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Wed, 09 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #9
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Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Humankind IS fear. Self IS fear. Humankind IS self. Self IS disorder.

Condemnation is the avoidance of the problem and we are experts in avoiding fear and pursuing merely pleasure . That is why fear continues in human consciousness. If fear and pleasure both are considered as the problem then maybe there would be a solution otherwise we keep running away from fear and pursue pleasure . I don't know how involve you are with the teachings. Once in a blue moon or everyday?

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 09 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #10
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Condemnation is the avoidance of the problem and we are experts in avoiding fear and pursuing merely pleasure . That is why fear continues in human consciousness.

Fear as the self. The self which avoids. And continues - feeding upon belief, opinions, and words that are not the thing.

If fear and pleasure both are considered as the problem then maybe there would be a solution otherwise we keep running away from fear and pursue pleasure .

As already pointed out: This is simply more of the self rattling around in the corridor of sorrows. There is no solution in the corridor of opposites. As K constantly pointed out: That is becoming.

I don't know how involve you are with the teachings.

Indeed you do not. It is not your concern.

Once in a blue moon or everyday?

If the teaching of K is not lived and discovered fully every living moment, it has no meaning.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #11
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Patricia Hemingway wrote:
M:I don't know how involve you are with the teachings.

P:Indeed you do not. It is not your concern.

M:It is very important for someone who has come to Krishnamurti site to discuss things to be involved with the teachings and be open. If someone has read Krishnamurti once in a blue moon and came to some conclusions and throws the same line over and over then there is no point discussing the teachings with that person. Indeed it is a concern. Merely blaming the self for all problems without understanding the underlying thought behind it is merely condemnation without understanding.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5602 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Merely blaming the self for all problems without understanding the underlying thought behind it is merely condemnation without understanding.

Isn't that your conclusion, your opinion which is another example of thought and it's limitations? Are you aware that you frequently attempt to compare what you may know about K's teachings with what you think others may know about these teachings? Is there anyway for you or anyone to know what others may or may not know about something? And why is it important to you to make these comparisons?

Further are thought and the self two separate activities or entities? Or is the self the accumulation of experience and knowledge as memory and expressed by thought? Without the memory of experience and knowledge involving one's self is there any self at all?

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #13
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Jack, As I said before everything that you write is your conclusion ,your comparison. So when you write against conclusions you just condemn yourself. You tried to condemn me by calling me "asshole". I have no interest to read your twisted comments. Get that Mr condemnation.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #14
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5602 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Jack, As I said before everything that you write is your conclusion ,your comparison.

Your mind is completely closed. You have formed an image of Jack based on your own ignorance and that's that.

And the quote above? What is that but a conclusion. You are blinded to your own anger and animosity toward Jack.

One Self wrote:
You tried to condemn me by calling me "asshole".

Well, your negative and angry response to my wishing another a good year qualified you for the name. You earned it.

And don't forget in one of your not too distant posts, one of your angry reactions to something I wrote you told me to "Eat Shit". You remember that don't you? I'm sure others do if you have conveniently forgotten.

You don't see that you are a hypocrite do you?

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #15
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Jack Pine wrote:
you told me to "Eat Shit".

Is that not interesting how these two words "asshole" and "Eat shit" are related. I don't care that you expose your true self in here . You don't have any friend in here and 99% in your daily life. You get pleasure to be the center of attention in here , it is a psychological desease. You attack people so that they attack you and then you are in the center. You have nothing to say . The discussion is about the problem of fear but jack wants to show off who is more clever in this site. He opposes anything new in this site. Any new comer becomes attacked so jack becomes the center of discussion. It is a mental issue.

And was it not Jack who called Goodman badman first and then he called him BS repeatedly after his comments like.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 09 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #16
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Merely blaming the self for all problems without understanding the underlying thought behind it is merely condemnation without understanding.

It is not a question of blaming or condemning anything.

It is the simple understanding that the self (psychological thought) cannot 'fix' the problem because it IS the problem.

How can disorder impose order upon disorder?

The self sits around endlessly wondering what it has to rid itself of so that it can be a 'better', and therefore happier, self. Very 'self'-serving that is!

But it has nothing at all to do with the teaching of K.

The teaching of K constantly goes to the deep root of the disorder of humanity.

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #17
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One Self wrote:
Questioner: Are you dependent on anything?

Krishnamurti: Of course I’m dependent physically on food, clothes and shelter, but psychologically, inwardly, I’m not dependent on anything – not on gods, not on social morality, not on belief, not on people. But it is irrelevant whether or not I am dependent. So, to continue: fear is the awareness of our inner emptiness, loneliness and poverty, and of not being able to do anything about it. We are concerned only with this fear which breeds dependence, and which is again increased by dependence. If we understand fear we also understand dependence. So to understand fear there must be sensitivity to discover, to understand how it comes into being. If one is at all sensitive one becomes conscious of one’s own extraordinary emptiness – a bottomless pit which cannot be filled by the vulgar entertainment of drugs nor by the entertainment of the churches, nor the amusements of society: nothing can ever fill it. Knowing this the fear increases. This drives you to depend, and this dependence makes you more and more insensitive. And knowing this is so, you are frightened of it. So our question now is: how is one to go beyond this emptiness, this loneliness – not how is one to be self-sufficient, not how is one to camouflage this emptiness permanently?

Krishnamurti is the only person who could discuss fear in dept(thank goodness). We are not intelligent enough to go into these matters by ourselves because we haven't lived it. We live in abstractions(the self and all that). K was very clear. Maybe we have lost clarity due to the old age. But k was always clear even when he was over 90.

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #18
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
We are not intelligent enough to go into these matters by ourselves because we haven't lived it.

So you are denying anyone the right to discover first-hand? Which necessarily makes everyone a 'follower'.

K constantly denounced followers - saying: do not believe what I say - FIND OUT first-hand. The word is not the thing.

And what exactly haven't we 'LIVED'? We are all living in, maintaining, and wholly responsible for, the disorder of humanity. Are we not?

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5602 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Is that not interesting how these two words "asshole" and "Eat shit"

I suppose so. I know why I called you an asshole. Do you know why you told me to "eat shit". Well, maybe that was your way of telling me to believe or accept what you are saying. You follow?

One Self wrote:
You don't have any friend in here and 99% in your daily life. You get pleasure to be the center of attention in here , it is a psychological desease.

I am no psychologist but it appears that your mental condition has moved into psychosis. Why else would you write what you did above about Jack? What do you really know about Jack and his life? Nothing. Are you aware of the twisted, hateful image that you have built of Jack? Your rantings toward Jack are becoming quite irrational.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 11 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #20
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One Self wrote:

We are not intelligent enough to go into these matters by ourselves because we haven't lived it.

P:So you are denying anyone the right to discover first-hand? Which necessarily makes everyone a 'follower'.

K constantly denounced followers - saying: do not believe what I say - FIND OUT first-hand. The word is not the thing.

What is it that you wand to discover first hand? Thought is always second handed. We read Krishnamurti and twist it according to our background and write about it and call it first handed !
That is why I say that we are not intelligent enough to discuss things and only Krishnamurti with his supreme intelligence was able to delve into these matters. And don't give me those worshiping of authority lines which is so silly and immature in this site.

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #21
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1178 posts in this forum Offline

This discussion is about the problem of fear and and P said fear is human nature. Her answer was leave it alone. You can't solve the problem of fear..

I say that there is solution for every problem. Anybody who has lived the teachings realizes that. Fear is to be understood. It is not there to be avoided or be justified.

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #22
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
This discussion is about the problem of fear and and P said fear is human nature. Her answer was leave it alone. You can't solve the problem of fear..

Complete misinterpretation.

If you do that to what is written directly to you, one can only imagine the manner in which you garble the teaching of K in your own sorry head.

But it is not a problem that I need to buy into. From now on I shall just watch and chuckle at the endless contortions of One Self. Well named by the way!

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #23
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Patricia Hemingway wrote:
But it is not a problem that I need to buy into. From now on I shall just watch and chuckle at the endless contortions of One Self. Well named by the way!

Thanks ,you haven't said anything of value so it it best to be quiet.

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #24
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Thanks ,you haven't said anything of value so it it best to be quiet.

Chuckle chuckle!

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #25
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5602 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Thanks ,you haven't said anything of value so it it best to be quiet.

So is this how you make friends?

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #26
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Jack Pine wrote:
So is this how you make friends?

Why make friends in here. We never meet(thank goodness).
Just don't become an enemy of mankind like Mr Trump your american president.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #27
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1178 posts in this forum Offline

Anybody who has understanding is my friend ,I don't have to make friends with them that is stupid. And anybody who intentionally twists what is written clearly into something else is surely not worth it to be friend with. It is like making friends with criminals. Not me.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #28
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1178 posts in this forum Offline

Questioner: You’re talking to me about dependence now, but I came here to discuss fear.

Krishnamurti: Let’s examine them both because they are interrelated as we shall see. Do you mind if we discuss them both? We were talking about dependence. What is dependence? Why does one psychologically depend on another? Isn’t dependence the denial of freedom? Take away the house, the husband, the children, the possessions – what is a man if all these are removed? In himself he is insufficient, empty, lost. So out of this emptiness, of which he is afraid, he depends on property, on people and beliefs. You may be so sure of all the things you depend on that you can’t imagine ever losing them – the love of your family, and the comfort. Yet fear continues. So we must be clear that any form of psychological dependence must inevitably breed fear, though the things you depend on may seem almost indestructible. Fear arises out of this inner insufficiency, poverty and emptiness. So now, do you see, we have three issues – sensitivity, dependence and fear? The three are interrelated. Take sensitivity: the more sensitive you are (unless you understand how to remain sensitive without dependence, how to be vulnerable without agony), the more you depend. Then take dependence: the more you depend, the more there is disgust and the demand to be free. This demand for freedom encourages fear, for this demand is a reaction, not freedom from dependence.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #29
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One Self wrote:
Mr Krishnamurti: the more you depend, the more there is disgust and the demand to be free. This demand for freedom encourages fear, for this demand is a reaction, not freedom from dependence.

Indeed.

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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 #30
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1923 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
So is this how you make friends?

He wants followers. ;)

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