Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Can we ask the right question?


Displaying posts 241 - 270 of 358 in total
Sun, 03 Feb 2019 #241
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: What is love? What is conflict? What is peace and tranquillity? What is intelligence? Who is the observer? What is the point of having discussion with strangers who flip flop all the time? I have more questions. Do any of my questions match any of yours? I think that is what you are asking.

Make it a little simpler. What is the point of having discussions? Forget about the words 'strangers' and 'flip-flop' for the moment because the way you have phrased it is very much a rhetorical question. But if we can explore the question of why we are here and why we are talking to one another, I am sure such an enquiry will also address the other questions too. Are we here to offer something to others, or to receive something from them, or for something else entirely different? In other words, first to be clear and honest about our motives for coming here. Would this be an acceptable way to begin?

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Sun, 03 Feb 2019.

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Sun, 03 Feb 2019 #242
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

every answer will come from the already known, does that means that something new only can come from questioning ??

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sun, 03 Feb 2019 #243
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Krishnamurti had surely a negative effect on jack. His existence, his use of language and behaviour is anti -k ,therefore not worth answering. He is the wrong question.:-)

The question you need to ask is why you have to villainize Jack all of the time? What is missing in you that you have to make yourself feel better by negating Jack? You don't know Jack and you are afraid of Jack.

Your other questions are fairly meaningless. They appear to be just questions with no real feeling behind them.

And even more telling about your pervasive ignorance is that you think that you, or anyone, can possibly know what affect Krishnamurti had on another. Especially someone you have never met. As for the language, you use the same language back toward Jack. As far as I am concerned the language I use to describe you is a very accurate description of who you appear to be.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 03 Feb 2019.

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Sun, 03 Feb 2019 #244
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Are we here to offer something to others, or to receive something from them, or for something else entirely different?

One is here for entirely something else, the teachings. Krishnamurti spoke for over sixty years and it is all about human behavior and conduct in the world. One is not here to meet people online. One can do that on Facebook or other social medias where one can see their recent appearances. If one is here to socialize and find friends then one becomes tolerant and superficial . There are about ten people who regularly post in this thread . No one new . Idiot who spoke some sense was pushed out of this site by constant harassments by we know who. He tried to push me out of this site but apparently one doesn't get to be used by his language of insults and hate. Most people give up and leave this site like idiot. Any other question that interests you? Try to respond in less than 24 hours.:-)

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Mon, 04 Feb 2019 #245
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

The calimero syndrome is a well-known phenomenon, as well as the stockholm syndrome. Both do not separate from their past by labeling the violence of the other or as helpless or as the powerless, defenceless. It seems that these psychological phenomena came together and have given birth to a new child, seems they all have no place, neither connection or relation with the Teaching.

The only thing one can learn from those phenomena is:
" what am I doing to contribute to their existance."

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 04 Feb 2019 #246
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: One is here for entirely something else, the teachings. Krishnamurti spoke for over sixty years and it is all about human behavior and conduct in the world.

Yes, it is about our conduct in the world. What is our conduct in regard to the teachings? How are we approaching them?

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Mon, 04 Feb 2019 #247
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Yes, it is about our conduct in the world. What is our conduct in regard to the teachings? How are we approaching them?

Our conduct is based on thought ,is it not?

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #248
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Our conduct is based on thought ,is it not?

If that is your conclusion, it is.

But Conduct can be as well based on stupidity as well as on intelligence.

conduct

noun

personal behavior; way of acting; bearing or deportment.
direction or management; execution:the conduct of a business.

verb (used with object)
to behave or manage (oneself):He conducted himself well.
To direct in action or course; manage; carry on:to conduct a meeting; to conduct a test.

verb (used without object)?
to lead.
to act as conductor, or leader of a musical group, by communicating to the performers by motions of a baton or the hands his or herinterpretation of the music.

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Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 06 Feb 2019.

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #249
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: Our conduct is based on thought, is it not?

Then it means we are approaching the teachings with a limited mind, a mind that is tethered to its own beliefs and expectations, a mind that says, 'The teachings are this, it is all fixed.' But what are the teachings? At their very root or core, what are they?

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #250
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
If that is your conclusion, it is.

con·clu·sion (k?n-klo?o?zh?n)
n.
1. The close or last part; the end or finish: the conclusion of the festivities.
2. The result or outcome of an act or process: What was the conclusion of all these efforts?
3. A judgment or decision reached after deliberation. See Synonyms at decision.
4. A final arrangement or settlement, as of a treaty.
5. Law The formal closing of a legal complaint or pleading.
6. Logic
a. A proposition that follows from the premises of a formal proof, for instance from the major and minor premises of a syllogism.
b. The proposition concluded from one or more premises; a deduction.
[Middle English conclusioun, from Old French conclusion, from Latin concl?si?, concl?si?n-, from concl?sus, past participle of concl?dere, to end

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #251
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Notice that the word conclusion in English language doesn't mean belief . But some people think that they are the same word!
If a scientist write a paper without a conclusion then his paper is not published. But in this site some people use the word "conclusion" as a weapon to put down what one says . Maybe they are blindly imitating Krishnamurti's words.

This post was last updated by One Self Tue, 05 Feb 2019.

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #252
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
But what are the teachings? At their very root or core, what are they?

Yes ,what are the teachings to you? I said what it is to me ,now it is your turn to answer that question.

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #253
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Notice that the word conclusion in English language doesn't mean belief . But some people think that they are the same word!

And they both have still a connection with time.
Conclusion is at the end of a traject so in the past and belief focused on the future. Scientists belief they are true with their conclusions and yet every generation find evidence of the incompleteness or wrong conclusions. They belief that in the end they can explain everything.

GOD will save the world so it doesn't matter how severe we are wrong doing now, at long last it will all come out right.

They are different but intertwined with time and can be and are mostly the base of conduct.

that does not exclude other sources of conduct.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 06 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #254
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Scientists belief they are true with their conclusions and yet every generation find evidence of the incompleteness or wrong conclusions.

Apparently wim doesn't see that every thing he says is his conclusion. Who is "every generation"?!

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #255
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Apparently wim doesn't see that every thing he says is his conclusion. Who is "every generation"?!

So is everything you are writing. What you wrote above is a conclusion. You can't eliminate conclusions but it helps tremendously if conclusions are based on fact instead of opinions as many of yours are.

You don't know what "every generation" means? Your parents are one generation, you are another generation and your kids are yet another generation. Let's not try to confuse the issue with inanities. Shall we?

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #256
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: Yes, what are the teachings to you? I said what it is to me, now it is your turn to answer that question.

You said it is about human behaviour and conduct in the world. That could mean anything. And we could argue about it for the next ten years. Or, we start in such a way that no argumentation between us is even possible. Do you see what I am saying? That means love from the start, not as some ideal to be attained after countless hours of dialogue. And if the teachings don't mean love then they are worthless anyway. Are you with me in this? I don't mean that you are intellectually or morally with me; I mean that you have exactly the same feeling about this: it is only love that matters - and if we have this at the start, all the rest will come easily.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Wed, 06 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #257
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
And if the teachings don't mean love then they are worthless anyway. Are you with me in this?

I was listening to a well known family psychologist. He actually has different solutions for families who are on the verge of divorce. Someone asked him what is love ? He said, to me love only exists between man and woman.
See how loveless our society is. And yet you think that we can start with love that doesn't exist on the planet.
Is there love when there is hate ? Can you jump into love as you jump into a pool of water? What does the word love mean to you? Let's start with that. Because it is easy to fall into illusions in these matters.

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #258
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
One Self: Our conduct is based on thought, is it not?

P:Then it means we are approaching the teachings with a limited mind, a mind that is tethered to its own beliefs and expectations, a mind that says, 'The teachings are this, it is all fixed.' But what are the teachings? At their very root or core, what are they?

You are moving too fast . If the mind is fixated on a belief surely can not relate to the teachings. He can only relate to his belief. That is obvious is it not?
Can there be love when one sticks to a conclusion and defends it all the time? Surely not.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 06 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #259
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Gee , it seems to me ....

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #260
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
It is all too easy to copy and paste something random from Krishnamurti based on a couple of keywords. It doesn't mean anything really.

Hi Jamie

there are people who honor their name very well, every self no one excluded, are still telling as if they know what's going on in ones heads, and deny that they had anything to do with it, that it is independtly objectively true.

Indeed, It doesn't mean anything.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #261
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Interestingly, though, the more cynical I become of these postings, the less cynically I view the wider world.

Yes, that is interesting. Can you elaborate Jamie?

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #262
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: What does the word love mean to you? Let's start with that. Because it is easy to fall into illusions in these matters.

Forget what the word means. Are you with me in this? That is my question. Are we together? If we are together, then love or lack of love is no longer a problem; we don't have to quibble over a single word.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Thu, 07 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #263
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Forget what the word means. Are you with me in this?

What needs to be forgotten is the "me" thing. If you can do that you are with everyone who has also forgotten the "me". But as long as you stick to that "me" there is no way out.

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Fri, 08 Feb 2019 #264
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

No?

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Fri, 08 Feb 2019 #265
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 870 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Interestingly, though, the more cynical I become of these postings, the less cynically I view the wider world.

Hi Jamie and all. There was a comment about the lack of innocence in the postings on this forum but it seems to have disappeared. That's a pity. Anyway, I suppose there is a lack of innocence in the whole world so perhaps it's not surprising that there is not much here. Children are innocent but they grow up. Tom Waits sang, "You're innocent when you dream." That could be true. Maybe this lack of innocence is a topic to be explored on another thread as I don't want to ruin Paul's one here. Would anybody be interested in going into this?

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Fri, 08 Feb 2019 #266
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1434 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
What needs to be forgotten is the "me" thing. If you can do that you are with everyone who has also forgotten the "me". But as long as you stick to that "me" there is no way out.

The idea of "forgetting the 'me'" sounds 'good' but isn't that just another hopeful trick of mine to get to a better place where I'll be more like that free entity that I think K. is talking about? "Getting somewhere" other than 'here' is as far as I can see, just the same old ladder to 'heaven', that's been searched for from the beginning. Good old self-centered greed behind an esoteric mask?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 08 Feb 2019.

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Fri, 08 Feb 2019 #267
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: What needs to be forgotten is the 'me' thing. If you can do that you are with everyone who has also forgotten the 'me'. But as long as you stick to that 'me' there is no way out.

Forgive me for being blunt, but you are not answering my question. First of all, are you with me? From there we can look at all the other questions, including what it means to forget the 'me' altogether. After all, we may find that there is nothing whatsoever to do about the 'me', that it cannot be forgotten about or escaped from, or that it may not even exist at all. But this comes later. To do it now is just to play around with theories and abstractions. Are we together? It is a simple enough question.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Sat, 09 Feb 2019.

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Fri, 08 Feb 2019 #268
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

K:The self is put together by time, by the movement of thought, by the known, by the word. In the abandonment of the self, in that total attention, that essence of beauty is there. The letting go of the self is not the calculated action of desire-will. Will is directive and so resistant, divisive, and so breeds conflict. The dissolution of the self is not the evolution of the knowledge of the self; time as a factor does not enter into it at all. There is no way or means to end it. The total inward non-action is the positive attention of beauty.

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Fri, 08 Feb 2019 #269
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

Is there a difference between 'he' and 'me', to me it seams not, but to him ......??

Ojai, California | 5th Public Talk 1945

Questioner: Can I find God in a foxhole?

Krishnamurti: A man who is seeking God will not be in a fox-hole.
How false are the ways of our thinking. We create a false situation and in that hope to find truth; in the false we try to find the real. 
Happy is he who sees the false as the false and that which is true as true.

We have become perverted in the ways of our thinking-feeling. In sorrow we wish to find happiness; only in abandoning the cause of sorrow is there joy.

P.s.: Bolding is mine!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 08 Feb 2019.

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Sun, 10 Feb 2019 #270
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

K:The self is put together by time, by the movement of thought, by the known, by the word. In the abandonment of the self, in that total attention, that essence of beauty is there. The letting go of the self is not the calculated action of desire-will.

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