Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Can we ask the right question?


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Sat, 02 Feb 2019 #241
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1329 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And if you ask a question expecting or trying to find an answer what happens?

Did you ever asked a question without expecting or to find an answer, Jack ?

Not so long ago I did and to my very surprise weeks later got an answer which also created a chain reaction to clarity i didn't even asked for but had to do something with the initial question.

self-knowing isn't a process of accumulation but of demolition !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sat, 02 Feb 2019 #242
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
self-knowing isn't a process of accumulation but of demolition !

Nicely put, Wim. No disagreement here. And we certainly agree, not that that is important, about asking questions.

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Sat, 02 Feb 2019 #243
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

It is interesting how everyone is anti-questtion now! . One wonders if Krishnamurti had any effect on the western man. Krishnamurti had surely a negative effect on jack. His existence, his use of language and behaviour is anti -k ,therefore not worth answering. He is the wrong question.:-)

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Sat, 02 Feb 2019 #244
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 189 posts in this forum Offline

Sean: I think the problem is this - who is to decide what a right and wrong question is?

Look, if it is something we are both sharing in and are both passionate about, then it is right for us. That's simply the start. From there we can move. But do we have a question that both of us are sharing with the same passion? Never mind all the rest of them; never mind including everybody. Can we two find just one question together?

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Sat, 02 Feb 2019 #245
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Can we two find just one question together?

One has many questions. Some of them are, what is love? What is conflict? What is peace and tranquility? What is intelligence? Who is the observer? What is the point of having discussion with strangers who flip flop all the time? I have more questions . Do any of my questions match any of yours. I think that is what you are asking. Tell me if I am wrong.

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Sat, 02 Feb 2019 #246
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 774 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Look, if it is something we are both sharing in and are both passionate about, then it is right for us. That's simply the start. From there we can move. But do we have a question that both of us are sharing with the same passion? Never mind all the rest of them; never mind including everybody. Can we two find just one question together?

Hi Paul. What you say seems reasonable to me.

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Sun, 03 Feb 2019 #247
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 189 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: What is love? What is conflict? What is peace and tranquillity? What is intelligence? Who is the observer? What is the point of having discussion with strangers who flip flop all the time? I have more questions. Do any of my questions match any of yours? I think that is what you are asking.

Make it a little simpler. What is the point of having discussions? Forget about the words 'strangers' and 'flip-flop' for the moment because the way you have phrased it is very much a rhetorical question. But if we can explore the question of why we are here and why we are talking to one another, I am sure such an enquiry will also address the other questions too. Are we here to offer something to others, or to receive something from them, or for something else entirely different? In other words, first to be clear and honest about our motives for coming here. Would this be an acceptable way to begin?

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Sun, 03 Feb 2019.

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Sun, 03 Feb 2019 #248
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1329 posts in this forum Offline

every answer will come from the already known, does that means that something new only can come from questioning ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sun, 03 Feb 2019 #249
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Krishnamurti had surely a negative effect on jack. His existence, his use of language and behaviour is anti -k ,therefore not worth answering. He is the wrong question.:-)

The question you need to ask is why you have to villainize Jack all of the time? What is missing in you that you have to make yourself feel better by negating Jack? You don't know Jack and you are afraid of Jack.

Your other questions are fairly meaningless. They appear to be just questions with no real feeling behind them.

And even more telling about your pervasive ignorance is that you think that you, or anyone, can possibly know what affect Krishnamurti had on another. Especially someone you have never met. As for the language, you use the same language back toward Jack. As far as I am concerned the language I use to describe you is a very accurate description of who you appear to be.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 03 Feb 2019.

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Sun, 03 Feb 2019 #250
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Are we here to offer something to others, or to receive something from them, or for something else entirely different?

One is here for entirely something else, the teachings. Krishnamurti spoke for over sixty years and it is all about human behavior and conduct in the world. One is not here to meet people online. One can do that on Facebook or other social medias where one can see their recent appearances. If one is here to socialize and find friends then one becomes tolerant and superficial . There are about ten people who regularly post in this thread . No one new . Idiot who spoke some sense was pushed out of this site by constant harassments by we know who. He tried to push me out of this site but apparently one doesn't get to be used by his language of insults and hate. Most people give up and leave this site like idiot. Any other question that interests you? Try to respond in less than 24 hours.:-)

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Mon, 04 Feb 2019 #251
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1329 posts in this forum Offline

The calimero syndrome is a well-known phenomenon, as well as the stockholm syndrome. Both do not separate from their past by labeling the violence of the other or as helpless or as the powerless, defenceless. It seems that these psychological phenomena came together and have given birth to a new child, seems they all have no place, neither connection or relation with the Teaching.

The only thing one can learn from those phenomena is:
" what am I doing to contribute to their existance."

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 04 Feb 2019 #252
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 189 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: One is here for entirely something else, the teachings. Krishnamurti spoke for over sixty years and it is all about human behavior and conduct in the world.

Yes, it is about our conduct in the world. What is our conduct in regard to the teachings? How are we approaching them?

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Mon, 04 Feb 2019 #253
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Yes, it is about our conduct in the world. What is our conduct in regard to the teachings? How are we approaching them?

Our conduct is based on thought ,is it not?

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #254
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1329 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Our conduct is based on thought ,is it not?

If that is your conclusion, it is.

But Conduct can be as well based on stupidity as well as on intelligence.

conduct

noun

personal behavior; way of acting; bearing or deportment.
direction or management; execution:the conduct of a business.

verb (used with object)
to behave or manage (oneself):He conducted himself well.
To direct in action or course; manage; carry on:to conduct a meeting; to conduct a test.

verb (used without object)?
to lead.
to act as conductor, or leader of a musical group, by communicating to the performers by motions of a baton or the hands his or herinterpretation of the music.

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Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 06 Feb 2019.

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #255
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 189 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: Our conduct is based on thought, is it not?

Then it means we are approaching the teachings with a limited mind, a mind that is tethered to its own beliefs and expectations, a mind that says, 'The teachings are this, it is all fixed.' But what are the teachings? At their very root or core, what are they?

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #256
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
If that is your conclusion, it is.

con·clu·sion (k?n-klo?o?zh?n)
n.
1. The close or last part; the end or finish: the conclusion of the festivities.
2. The result or outcome of an act or process: What was the conclusion of all these efforts?
3. A judgment or decision reached after deliberation. See Synonyms at decision.
4. A final arrangement or settlement, as of a treaty.
5. Law The formal closing of a legal complaint or pleading.
6. Logic
a. A proposition that follows from the premises of a formal proof, for instance from the major and minor premises of a syllogism.
b. The proposition concluded from one or more premises; a deduction.
[Middle English conclusioun, from Old French conclusion, from Latin concl?si?, concl?si?n-, from concl?sus, past participle of concl?dere, to end

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #257
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Notice that the word conclusion in English language doesn't mean belief . But some people think that they are the same word!
If a scientist write a paper without a conclusion then his paper is not published. But in this site some people use the word "conclusion" as a weapon to put down what one says . Maybe they are blindly imitating Krishnamurti's words.

This post was last updated by One Self Tue, 05 Feb 2019.

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Tue, 05 Feb 2019 #258
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
But what are the teachings? At their very root or core, what are they?

Yes ,what are the teachings to you? I said what it is to me ,now it is your turn to answer that question.

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #259
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1329 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Notice that the word conclusion in English language doesn't mean belief . But some people think that they are the same word!

And they both have still a connection with time.
Conclusion is at the end of a traject so in the past and belief focused on the future. Scientists belief they are true with their conclusions and yet every generation find evidence of the incompleteness or wrong conclusions. They belief that in the end they can explain everything.

GOD will save the world so it doesn't matter how severe we are wrong doing now, at long last it will all come out right.

They are different but intertwined with time and can be and are mostly the base of conduct.

that does not exclude other sources of conduct.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 06 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #260
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Scientists belief they are true with their conclusions and yet every generation find evidence of the incompleteness or wrong conclusions.

Apparently wim doesn't see that every thing he says is his conclusion. Who is "every generation"?!

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #261
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5492 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Apparently wim doesn't see that every thing he says is his conclusion. Who is "every generation"?!

So is everything you are writing. What you wrote above is a conclusion. You can't eliminate conclusions but it helps tremendously if conclusions are based on fact instead of opinions as many of yours are.

You don't know what "every generation" means? Your parents are one generation, you are another generation and your kids are yet another generation. Let's not try to confuse the issue with inanities. Shall we?

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #262
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 189 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: Yes, what are the teachings to you? I said what it is to me, now it is your turn to answer that question.

You said it is about human behaviour and conduct in the world. That could mean anything. And we could argue about it for the next ten years. Or, we start in such a way that no argumentation between us is even possible. Do you see what I am saying? That means love from the start, not as some ideal to be attained after countless hours of dialogue. And if the teachings don't mean love then they are worthless anyway. Are you with me in this? I don't mean that you are intellectually or morally with me; I mean that you have exactly the same feeling about this: it is only love that matters - and if we have this at the start, all the rest will come easily.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Wed, 06 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #263
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
And if the teachings don't mean love then they are worthless anyway. Are you with me in this?

I was listening to a well known family psychologist. He actually has different solutions for families who are on the verge of divorce. Someone asked him what is love ? He said, to me love only exists between man and woman.
See how loveless our society is. And yet you think that we can start with love that doesn't exist on the planet.
Is there love when there is hate ? Can you jump into love as you jump into a pool of water? What does the word love mean to you? Let's start with that. Because it is easy to fall into illusions in these matters.

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Wed, 06 Feb 2019 #264
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
One Self: Our conduct is based on thought, is it not?

P:Then it means we are approaching the teachings with a limited mind, a mind that is tethered to its own beliefs and expectations, a mind that says, 'The teachings are this, it is all fixed.' But what are the teachings? At their very root or core, what are they?

You are moving too fast . If the mind is fixated on a belief surely can not relate to the teachings. He can only relate to his belief. That is obvious is it not?
Can there be love when one sticks to a conclusion and defends it all the time? Surely not.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 06 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #265
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Gee , it seems to me ....

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #266
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1329 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
It is all too easy to copy and paste something random from Krishnamurti based on a couple of keywords. It doesn't mean anything really.

Hi Jamie

there are people who honor their name very well, every self no one excluded, are still telling as if they know what's going on in ones heads, and deny that they had anything to do with it, that it is independtly objectively true.

Indeed, It doesn't mean anything.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #267
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 774 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Interestingly, though, the more cynical I become of these postings, the less cynically I view the wider world.

Yes, that is interesting. Can you elaborate Jamie?

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #268
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 189 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: What does the word love mean to you? Let's start with that. Because it is easy to fall into illusions in these matters.

Forget what the word means. Are you with me in this? That is my question. Are we together? If we are together, then love or lack of love is no longer a problem; we don't have to quibble over a single word.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Thu, 07 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 07 Feb 2019 #269
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Forget what the word means. Are you with me in this?

What needs to be forgotten is the "me" thing. If you can do that you are with everyone who has also forgotten the "me". But as long as you stick to that "me" there is no way out.

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Fri, 08 Feb 2019 #270
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1053 posts in this forum Offline

No?

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