Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Can we ask the right question?


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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 #121
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
So time is manufactured by thought-memory and, without time, there's no desire or effort. It is time which drives desire and effort. So without time, desire, effort, there's only what is - fear or anger. If there's only fear - without effort - it can be observed that fear ends. No?

But thought-memory is there in the brain cells. There’s no fear without it, as You said. So in a moment of fear, one can’t say, ‘without thought memory’....or ‘I will look at fear without thought”. They’re two sides of the coin, no? If I’ve been raised as a strict Catholic, I may experience fear related to that background, even though the conditioning may be unconscious. So where there is fear, there is either conscious or unconscious thought. And you are saying that I can simply put aside all my conditioned background ...my thought reactions...when there is fear? How? That background is not separate from the fear as I understand it. Sorry, but this point you and Dan are discussing seems confusing.

Let it Be

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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 #122
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Why should we accept anything?

You point out the behavior of a person in this site to others and that person immediately puts "you" instead of his name and posted it. That is cheap . that is not using his brain. because it is imitation which is violence according to Krishnamurti and anybody who is aware. .

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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 #123
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Forgive me for saying this, but you are all going off at different tangents. To me this is a very simple issue and we are not really addressing it. It is all about the quality of our questions. Where are our questions coming from? Are they just our pet questions? Are they arising from our prejudices and opinions? Are they tethered by the desire to arrive at a certain fixed conclusion? Or, first, by looking together at where we are in the world we find that the questions themselves begin to speak in their own voice without any interference or prompting by any of us.

If this isn't clear, we can go into it. But I keep coming back to the central theme of finding out if we can ask the right question. If we cannot do this one simple thing together then anything else here is just going to be a waste of time. Sorry to put it bluntly but this is so. This is a place for something new in the world, not just another stale platform for our petty quarrels and half-baked theories. It is up to us to work at this and get it right. With such a feeling, the feeling that this matters tremendously, then it is all incredibly easy; and I doubt that we have this feeling.

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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 #124
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But thought-memory is there in the brain cells. There’s no fear without it, as You said. So in a moment of fear, one can’t say, ‘without thought memory’....or ‘I will look at fear without thought”. They’re two sides of the coin, no? If I’ve been raised as a strict Catholic, I may experience fear related to that background, even though the conditioning may be unconscious. So where there is fear, there is either conscious or unconscious thought. And you are saying that I can simply put aside all my conditioned background ...my thought reactions...when there is fear? How? That background is not separate from the fear as I understand it.

Earlier, I posted this:

Huguette . wrote:
Anger IS rooted in thought. But the reactive sensation of anger does not arise out of effort. The sensation arises without warning and without effort. Then the desire to deal with anger, to do something about anger, follows the reaction, doesn’t it? That desire is also part of thought's process of reaction. But it is still not effort, as I see it. Then the drive to figure out what to do to punish the falsely perceived source of the anger (myself or someone else) follows. This drive is effort, isn't it. So the sensation of anger is triggered by unconscious thought but it is not the thought of conscious effort.

There is an interval between the arising of anger and the effort, isn’t there? This is what I see. K spoke about the interval between idea and action. Is this the interval? The idea (of which I was unaware) would be something to the effect that “I am not supposed to let myself be pushed around” (for example). This is followed by the desire to put the idea into action. Between the idea of what should be, and figuring out what action to take, there is an interval. That interval is effort, isn’t it? Or not? It is this effort of thought which can fall silent. It falls silent because it is within thought's limited capacity to understand the need for silence, which is awareness.

As long as there is no silent pause, the sensation is automatically and immediately followed by the desire to act and by retaliatory action. As long as there is no pause, it is taken for granted that retaliatory action is necessary and this belief is acted on.

The effort to act in retaliation involves naming, explaining, accusing, justifying, analyzing, and so on. The effort is expressed verbally or physically. The verbal expression might include a denial of anger. In all this, there is no pause, so no awareness of the whole process and no understanding.

Is there no relationship between what you said and what I said? Isn't there a difference between reactive thought and the thought which is effort? The difference being the interval between idea and action, between initial reaction and the effort of action?

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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 #125
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Keep it very simple. What makes the right question? First of all, it is a question that deeply concerns both of us; I think this must be the starting point. Don't you agree?

I don't agree or disagree, Paul. We apparently don't understand each other at all. It's like having a dialogue with someone who speaks a different language where what's said is garbled, unintelligible. I hope I'm not being hurtful in saying this but not responding to your post to me might also be hurtful.

Sorry for having intruded.

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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 #126
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1434 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Is there no relationship between what you said and what I said? Isn't there a difference between reactive thought and the thought which is effort? The difference being the interval between idea and action, between initial reaction and the effort of action?

What I hear Tom asking is that if the sensation arising is immediately re-cognized as 'fear' the die is already cast. With that recognition from memory and the 'naming' of the sensation as something that has been felt before, the train is already running down one's own conditioned 'track'. So is there an interval or is it just reaction/action? If there is no interval, then the awareness has to come before the 'naming' as 'anger' or 'fear', doesn't it?

If a child is happily playing with a toy and another child snatches it away, the happy child becomes angry and cries and or tries to take the toy back with force...same with an animal chewing on a bone...those moments of 'anger' and distress are stored in memory and added to as we grow. Our 'bones' or toys now as adults are our 'attachments'. They are psychological as well as physical, threaten them and the reaction to that threat, to my 'security', is instantaneous. So is it 'possible' not to go to the "trash bin" (Ken's term) and react in the 'old' way to each 'new' situation?... Is that the "question"?

Posted in the other forum:(bold is mine)

K."This is really quite astonishingly simple. Because it is simple, we mistrust it. We want everything to be very complicated, very cunning; and all cunning is covered with a perfume of words. If I can look at a flower non-verbally - and I can; anyone can do it, if one gives sufficient attention - can't I look with that same objective, non-verbal attention at the problems which I have? Can't I look out of silence, which is non-verbal, without the thinking machinery of pleasure and time being in operation? Can't I just look? I think that's the crux of the whole matter, not to approach from the periphery, which only complicates life tremendously, but to look at life, with all its complex problems of livelihood, sex, death, misery, sorrow, the agony of being tremendously alone - to look at all that without association, out of silence, which means without a centre, without the word which creates the reaction of thought, which is memory and hence time. I think that is the real problem, the real issue: whether the mind can look at life where there is immediate action, not an idea and then action and eliminate conflict altogether".
.
From: London 1965 public discussion 6

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 24 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 23 Jan 2019 #127
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
It is all about the quality of our questions. Where are our questions coming from? Are they just our pet questions? Are they arising from our prejudices and opinions? Are they tethered by the desire to arrive at a certain fixed conclusion?

A confused mind is incapable of asking the right question. If that is a fact then What will de-confuse the confused mind? That is the real question. Can a confused mind clarify itself or it is doomed to be confused till the end?

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #128
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So is it 'possible' not to go to the "trash bin" (Ken's term) and react in the 'old' way to each 'new' situation?... Is that the "question"?

But the mind is conditioned. That’s a fact. The ‘trash bin’ is a fact. I’ve been conditioned as a strict Catholic and someone criticizes organized religion. Bam! Anger immediately arises. How do you see that ‘I’ can avoid NOT going to the trash bin, Dan? I think I am at least somewhat with you on the question you are asking in the first paragraph of your message above. Perhaps we can explore this better if we use a real world example. Let’s say I’m a father of a young teen who is doing poorly in school. I find I’m often full of anger when relating to my son’s poor behavior. He won’t spend time on his studiesand listens to horrible rap music. He hangs around with some of his peers who use drugs or drink. He wears horrible teenage fashions...clothing....piercings...tattoos... that in and of themselves trigger anger in me. I don’t enjoy being angry with him all the time, and he obviously doesn’t enjoy it either. But what can I do? I want him to succeed in life and he’s becoming a slacker...and this fact causes great anger and fear in me. I’ve tried various punishments and they haven’t worked. They only alienate him further and bring us further apart. I try to talk to him and he shuts me out. Perhaps much of my anger is a result of how I myself was conditioned by MY farther, and how HE was conditioned by his own father....and the conditioning of the church and the society. A friend of mine growing up was beaten by his father every time he returned home with bad grades on his school report card. His father was a devout Christian. So anger often arises in me. I hate living with anger like this. I love my son, but I can’t bear the thought of him becoming a ‘failure’ in life, and his behavior causes great anger in me. I want to get to the bottom of this terrible conflict....the conflict between what my son is, and what I want him to be. How do I begin?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 24 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #129
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
A confused mind is incapable of asking the right question. If that is a fact then What will de-confuse the confused mind? That is the real question. Can a confused mind clarify itself or it is doomed to be confused till the end?

Instead of inventing the opposite of the problem, in this case "a de-confused mind", why not stay with the confusion and understand that without wanting to escape to a solution that thought has invented?

Thought reacts to problems by seeking a solution. But isn't it more important to understand the problem than it is to seek a solution? This is what we are conditioned to do. Find a solution to our problems without ever really understanding the problem. Seeking a solution is an escape from "what is". Do you see that?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 24 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #130
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1434 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Let’s say I’m a father of a young teen who is doing poorly

Is this some hypothetical person?... Has he searched, read K. and others? Observed himself? Understands that the 'thinker' isn't different than thought? Wrestled with the "observer is the observed". Sees the danger of organized religion, nationalism, etc? The danger of attachment to a belief, to money, to property, to that "ugly little unit" the family? Wants to be rid totally of any psychological conflict etc., etc.? Questions everything he has learned and been told?....The 'beginning' (and ending?) is the same for all of us, isn't it, no matter what crap life has thrown our way?

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #131
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Let’s say I’m a father of a young teen who is doing poorly

Dan: Is this some hypothetical person?... Has he searched, read K. and others? Observed himself?

This is you, me, anyone who has anger and conflict in their life. We may have read K and have observed ourselves, but are we free of conflict? Don’t we have moments of anger, fear, conflict, confusion? Or perhaps some of us are free of it all. I doubt it, but it’s possible, I suppose. I used the above as an example of anger since anger was what was being discussed.

Let it Be

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #132
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Instead of inventing the opposite of the problem, in this case "a de-confused mind", why not stay with the confusion and understand that without wanted to escape to a solution that thought has invented?

It is unfortunate that you keep proposing action before understanding the question. Are you trying to show off among people that you know that you have something to say? Is that why you state the obvious?
I pose the question again

Do you guys look at the question in the same way that jack sees it? Or you don't care period (which is most likely the case). That is why you are always silent when you should not be silent..

One Self wrote:
A confused mind is incapable of asking the right question. If that is a fact then What will de-confuse the confused mind? That is the real question. Can a confused mind clarify itself or it is doomed to be confused till the end?

I say the question again until we get it.
Can a confused mind clarify itself or it is doomed to be confused till the end?

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #133
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Instead of inventing the opposite of the problem, in this case "a de-confused mind", why not stay with the confusion and understand that without wanted to escape to a solution that thought has invented?

It is unfortunate that you keep proposing action before understanding the question. Are you trying to show off among people that you know that you have something to say? Is that why you state the obvious?
I pose the question again

Do you guys look at the question in the same way that jack sees it? Or you don't care period (which is most likely the case). That is why you are always silent when you should not be silent..

One Self wrote:
A confused mind is incapable of asking the right question. If that is a fact then What will de-confuse the confused mind? That is the real question. Can a confused mind clarify itself or it is doomed to be confused till the end?

I say the question again until we get it.
Can a confused mind clarify itself or it is doomed to be confused till the end?

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #134
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Can a confused mind clarify itself or it is doomed to be confused till the end?

Just naming something can block you from seeing it as it is. When you name something as a confused mind, for example, then everything you have learned, everything you know about confusion comes into play. In other words your conditioning kicks in and you're not seeing what is but rather you are seeing "confusion" and all of what that means to you.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #135
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
In other words your conditioning kicks in and you're not seeing what is but rather you are seeing "confusion" and all of what that means to you.

Are you saying that confusion only exists because of the word "confusion" ? The word"confusion" has a negative connotation , we are aware of that . But confusion is a reality in the world, most of us are aware of the growing confusion in the world. Who is not?

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #136
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Are you saying that confusion only exists because of the word "confusion" ?

No. I'm saying when we put a name on an emotion, a feeling like confusion, for example, then we are no longer seeing what is but the sum total of the conditioning that that word represents to us based on our experience and knowledge of that word. Conditioning is programming, training. Everything we know and have experienced about something is in the name we give to a new situation. So that instead of seeing that new situation we are seeing what that word represents for us. What is stored in our memory. The past.

There is a lack of clarity and understanding in the world that is pervasive. But don't name it. Naming is thinking which is the past and is limited. Just observe without naming, labeling.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #137
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1928 posts in this forum Offline

We see the world of hate taking its harvest at the present. This world of hate has been created by our fathers and their forefathers and by us. Thus ignorance stretches indefinitely into the past. It has not come into being by itself. It is the outcome of human ignorance, a historical process, isn’t it? We as individuals have cooperated with our ancestors, who, with their forefathers, set going this process of hate, fear, greed, and so on. Now, as individuals, we partake of this world of hate so long as we, individually, indulge in it.
The world, then, is an extension of yourself. If you, as an individual, desire to destroy hate, then you as an individual must cease hating. To destroy hate, you must dissociate yourself from hate in all its gross and subtle forms, and so long as you are caught up in it you are part of that world of ignorance and fear. Then the world is an extension of yourself, yourself duplicated and multiplied. The world does not exist apart from the individual. It may exist as an idea, as a state, as a social organization, but to carry out that idea, to make that social or religious organization function, there must be the individual. His ignorance, his greed, and his fear maintain the structure of ignorance, greed, and hate. If the individual changes, can he affect the world, the world of hate, greed, and so on?... The world is an extension of yourself so long as you are thoughtless, caught up in ignorance, hate, greed, but when you are earnest, thoughtful and aware, there is not only a dissociation from those ugly causes that create pain and sorrow, but also in that understanding there is a completeness, a wholeness.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #138
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

"Can we ask the right question ?"

yes, we can !
But the questìon is:
' Do we ask the right questions, day in day out, every second, here and now ?

why am i doing what i am doing ?? and this can only be answered
by the one self who asked this questions
and any word spent, explaining or reading, is lost energy!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 24 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #139
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Well...I told you but you wouldn't listen. Ask a simple question and you will get ten different answers from ten different people in this forum.
Hi Jamie

Isn't that proof of the fact: we don't know ?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #140
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1434 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We may have read K and have observed ourselves, but are we free of conflict? Don’t we have moments of anger, fear, conflict, confusion? Or perhaps some of us are free of it all. I doubt it, but it’s possible, I suppose. I used the above as an example of anger since anger was what was being discussed.

Whether someone is "free" as you say, is something I can't know, right? People can say anything...your use of the word "we" seems off to me, though, because 'we' can be pretty devious in dealing with each other...I can only know about myself, and then only to the degree that I am able to be honest. How can I say that I am 'free? How can you know what the next moment holds in store for you? The great teaching that we've stumbled on here (who knows why) is that there are two ways to meet that next moment: one is with a ready-made 'suit of armor' or two: with hands wide open and palms exposed...The defense systems of 'anger management training' belong to the former and they are probably very necessary (even mandatory) and useful for some...but this 'holistic' approach that we are involved in here is radically different it seems to me. It's all about 'understanding'. What we call 'anger' is just one part of a complex of reactions. We're investigating ourselves because we want to 'understand' what we are and how we came to be what we have become, right? And the disparate reactions, conclusions, among us, are inevitable since there is no road map for this. No 'end game'. We're truly alone in this.

But to your questions: are we free of conflict, I'd change "we" to 'I' and the answer is 'no'? "Don't we (I) have moments of anger, fear conflict, confusion? The answer is "Yes".

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #141
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
We're investigating ourselves because we want to 'understand' what we are and how we came to be what we have become, right? And the disparate reactions, conclusions, among us, are inevitable since there is no road map for this. No 'end game'. We're truly alone in this.

But to your questions: are we free of conflict, I'd change "we" to 'I' and the answer is 'no'? "Don't we (I) have moments of anger, fear conflict, confusion? The answer is "Yes".

So to go back to your question in #136: “is this some hypothetical person? ...” I’ll say, yes, but it could be any of us who is feeling anger.

Let it Be

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #142
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1434 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So to go back to your question in #136: “is this some hypothetical person? ...” I’ll say, yes, but it could be any of us who is feeling anger.

Everybody feels 'anger' don't they? They manifest it in different ways depending on how they've been conditioned; some may strike out, some may 'turn the other cheek', some may turn to a 'teaching', that they hope will make them more tolerant, more understanding, more loving, to relieve the anxiety they feel...the ones who punch first and worry about it later are not who we're talking about here, are we? Most of us here aren't interested in becoming 'harder', are we? We can see what that is doing to this beautiful world. So is the question, how do you go beyond this state called 'anger', not through substitution, not through 'anger management, not through drugs, entertainment, etc? You see how destructive it is, how it spoils living...Can there really be any other way than by 'understanding'? Understanding how it arises, what it is objecting to, resisting? Is there a 'collision' between the way I think things should be and the way they are? Am I defending something in myself that I perceive to be under attack? I don't think that I can 'understand' something that I want to get rid of, to change. If it's my child, I have to see it from their perspective as much as possible even though I see how dangerous the direction is that they're taking. What do you say?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 24 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #143
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette: I don't agree or disagree. We apparently don't understand each other at all. It's like having a dialogue with someone who speaks a different language where what's said is garbled, unintelligible. I hope I'm not being hurtful in saying this but not responding to your post to me might also be hurtful.

Jamie: You started this thread not with a question but a mission statement and now you are getting frustrated because your project is not going in the right direction. Why not chill out and go with the flow? There are some interesting points being made here and, who knows, someone may yet ask the right question, whatever that is.

One Self: A confused mind is incapable of asking the right question. If that is a fact then what will de-confuse the confused mind? That is the real question. Can a confused mind clarify itself or is it doomed to be confused till the end?

Look, it is not complicated. Can we find a simple question in which we both are willing to invest all our time and energy? Then our whole problem has gone away. It doesn't matter if it is a question for all four of us or just for the two of us; I don't mind. But before we start suggesting which questions may be right or wrong and offering our own selections of the best questions, can we first of all find out if this is something we are truly interested in pursuing together? If you are not interested, you can go off and talk in another thread; no-one is preventing you. But I want to find out if we can together put the right question. That's my passion. And all I am asking you is this very simple thing: is this also your passion? If it is, we have moved away from the current stalemate. It is not a mission statement. It is not garbled and unintelligible. It is not coming from a confused mind. I am asking you a direct question; and you can meet it however you want.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Thu, 24 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #144
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

I wonder where Paul got the idea of "right question". It must be from Krishnamurti. So why not listen to the horse's mouth and see what Krishnamurti said about " the right kind of question" and end this beating around the bush that seems to me is not getting anywhere. Don't you think so?

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #145
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

ques·tion (kw?s?ch?n)
n.
1.
A sentence, phrase, or gesture that seeks information through a reply.
2.
a. A subject or point that is under discussion or open to controversy: the question of whether a new school should be built.
b. A matter of concern or difficulty; a problem: This is not a question of too little money.
3.
a. A proposition brought up for consideration by an assembly.
b. The act of bringing a proposal to vote.
4. Law An issue in dispute for the resolution of a court.
5. Uncertainty; doubt: There is no question about the validity of the enterprise. Her integrity is beyond question.
v. ques·tioned, ques·tion·ing, ques·tions
v.tr.
1.
a. To ask a question or questions of (someone).
b. To interrogate (a suspect, for example). See Synonyms at ask.
2. To pose a question or questions regarding (something); analyze or examine: researchers questioning which of the methods will work.
3. To express doubt about; dispute: questioned his sincerity; questioned the expense report.
v.intr.
To ask questions.
Idioms:
in question
Under consideration or discussion.
out of the question
Not worth considering because of being too difficult or impossible: Starting over is out of the question.
[Middle English, from Old French, legal inquiry, from Latin quaesti?, quaesti?n-, from *quaestus, obsolete past participle of quaerere, to ask, seek.]

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #146
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

end this beating around the bush that seems to me is not getting anywhere. Don't you think so?

Yes. It’s simply another trick of the intellect to assume it can ask the “right question” and from there go on to find ....what? Happiness? Peace? Enlightenment? And even if there was a right question for me, why assume it would be the right one for you? Perhaps I should simply leave this thread to those who want to pursue the topic since to me it’s entirely pointless.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 24 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #147
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1928 posts in this forum Offline

We see the world of hate taking its harvest at the present. This world of hate has been created by our fathers and their forefathers and by us. Thus ignorance stretches indefinitely into the past. It has not come into being by itself. It is the outcome of human ignorance, a historical process, isn’t it? We as individuals have cooperated with our ancestors, who, with their forefathers, set going this process of hate, fear, greed, and so on. Now, as individuals, we partake of this world of hate so long as we, individually, indulge in it.
The world, then, is an extension of yourself. If you, as an individual, desire to destroy hate, then you as an individual must cease hating. To destroy hate, you must dissociate yourself from hate in all its gross and subtle forms, and so long as you are caught up in it you are part of that world of ignorance and fear. Then the world is an extension of yourself, yourself duplicated and multiplied. The world does not exist apart from the individual. It may exist as an idea, as a state, as a social organization, but to carry out that idea, to make that social or religious organization function, there must be the individual. His ignorance, his greed, and his fear maintain the structure of ignorance, greed, and hate. If the individual changes, can he affect the world, the world of hate, greed, and so on?... The world is an extension of yourself so long as you are thoughtless, caught up in ignorance, hate, greed, but when you are earnest, thoughtful and aware, there is not only a dissociation from those ugly causes that create pain and sorrow, but also in that understanding there is a completeness, a wholeness.

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #148
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti above without reference or even telling k said so. Hahaha..

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Thu, 24 Jan 2019 #149
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1385 posts in this forum Offline

What is confusion? It is contradiction between ones thought and one's action or conduct. It is essentially conflict within.

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Fri, 25 Jan 2019 #150
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5707 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
What is confusion?

When you ask, "What is confusion", do you want to understand your own confusion or do you want to understand "confusion" in general? I mean discuss it as an intellectual exercise? If the latter then isn't that a discussion of the ideal, theorizing? If you want to understand your own "confusion" as it arises then deal with what you are feeling without naming it. Do you understand that when you name something you are feeling you are no longer dealing with that feeling but a general condition, a label, that generalizes what you are feeling?

There is confusion the concept that can be discussed intellectually and described endlessly or there is the attention on what you are feeling without naming it.

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