Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Can we ask the right question?


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Sun, 06 Jan 2019 #31
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

What is at the centre of oneself? What is the 'I' that says, 'I exist'?

Thought/memory isn’t it?

Let it Be

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Mon, 07 Jan 2019 #32
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

I didn't clic yet and there is no offense. The thing is you are right, the mother pass on her conditioning, her beleifs, her sense of right and wrong, her worldview to that child, exactly as her own mother did pass on her conditioning to her. The conditioning comes from education, environement and so on. It is old and universal. We all have been conditioned. Is it this comditioning that pervert the heart ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 07 Jan 2019.

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Mon, 07 Jan 2019 #33
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Rich: What is it? Not sure I see where you are getting at.

Tom: Thought/memory, isn’t it?

Without the past as reference there is no centre, is there? One only exists as a product of the past with its many memories; and any imagined future for oneself also arises from that past. So there is nothing at the centre except for something already dead and gone. It is all this that denies love, whether it is the most marvellous memories of a wonderful life or the bitter residue of a lifetime of hurts.

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Tue, 08 Jan 2019 #34
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

Do you mean that the self, which is the me with all his attributes, his images, of himself and of the others, his believes, his envy, his jalousy, his ambitions, his conclusions , his hurts, his dreams and so on is what you named the center?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Tue, 08 Jan 2019.

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Tue, 08 Jan 2019 #35
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Do you mean that the self, which is the me with all his attributes, his images, of himself and of the others, his believes, his envy, his jalousy, his ambitions, his conclusions , his hurts, his dreams and so on is what you named the center?

Yes, I think that’s what Paul is saying....the center is the self....and the self is based upon the past....memory...and projection of this past into the imagined future in order to sustain itself. He can correct me if I’ve misunderstood.

Let it Be

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Tue, 08 Jan 2019 #36
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Rich: Do you mean that the self, which is the me with all his attributes, his images of himself and of the others, his beliefs, his envy, his jealousy, his ambitions, his conclusions, his hurts, his dreams and so on, is what you named the center?

Tom: Yes, I think that’s what Paul is saying: the center is the self and the self is based upon the past, memory, and projection of this past into the imagined future in order to sustain itself. He can correct me if I’ve misunderstood.

No, you've put it well. So the question is: the centre of what? At the centre there is only a lot of collected debris. It is this debris that acts; it is the past that speaks, pushes, probes, forms opinions, holds on to conclusions. But there may be nothing whatsoever at the very centre of it all. It's only that the movement of all this debris causes the sensation of a living entity caught at the centre. This movement creates the illusion or the impression that there is a controller of all the debris, something at the heart of it all that is the real me, the ultimate self, the soul. Or there is only the debris.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Tue, 08 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #37
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Ken: The brain is like the recycle bin on your computer....except it's never emptied.

Then let's find out if it can be emptied. Obviously, there is no action possible either from the centre or from the contents around the centre because they are both part of the rubbish. So it's really an impossible question we are putting. Can this rubbish be totally cleared away? Can the mind be totally empty?

So we have our question. Let's go at it.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Wed, 09 Jan 2019.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #38
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Can this rubbish be totally cleared away? Can the mind be totally empty?

So we have our question. Let's go at it.

You ask how is the mind or the brain to be free from the constant self- occupation which you call rubbish? The immediate answer is stop thinking about yourself and then the mind becomes empty or free.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #39
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: The immediate answer is stop thinking about yourself and then the mind becomes empty or free.

For a little while, maybe; but sooner or later it all comes back in. That's the honest answer, isn't it? None of our clever responses has ever solved this question or challenge.

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Sat, 12 Jan 2019 #40
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

If you don't feed the monster ( the rubbish) it will die away. In the same way if you don't feed thought it dies . The question is that why one feeds thought or the self all the time?

This post was last updated by One Self Sat, 12 Jan 2019.

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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 #41
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: If you don't feed the monster (the rubbish) it will die away. In the same way if you don't feed thought it dies. The question is that why one feeds thought or the self all the time?

There may be many reasons why or there may be just one central reason. At the end of it, whatever the reason, what do we have? We have collected yet another piece of debris. That's all. So the reason or the explanation for why we behave as we do is never enough to solve the problem. Far from it, in fact, as the very explanation of our problems is what allows them to continue to plague us. Therefore, can we put the question differently? Who is the monster?

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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 #42
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

Forget the monster,what are we talking about?

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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 #43
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Can the mind be totally empty? This is our question. The moment we pose an answer to it, saying, ‘Yes, it can be empty if or when this or that condition applies,’ we have effectively shut-down the question and have turned away our interest towards an answer. So the question is never met thoroughly, totally, and meaningfully. Instead, a distance of time has been placed between the question and its answer. So any answer that emerges will therefore always be theoretical and abstract, quite useless and invalid. But if there is only the question and no other distraction, all sorts of things happen from that. The answers we pose and present will never make anything happen except to generate a lot of words and arguments. In the absence of such answers, the whole energy of the question is then free to explode.

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Sun, 13 Jan 2019 #44
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Can the mind be totally empty? This is our question.

Should we not clarify the question first and then look at the clarification of the question? Can the mind be empty of what? What is there in the mind that is disturbing ?

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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 #45
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Should we not clarify the question first and then look at the clarification of the question? Can the mind be empty of what? What is there in the mind that is disturbing?

The past is there as memory which manifests in the form of beliefs, ideals, opinions, prejudices, conclusions and so on. It is disturbing because each one of these manifestations is a form of conflict: the moment I form a belief or an ideal, I am separate from everyone else.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Mon, 14 Jan 2019.

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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 #46
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

Paul Dimmock wrote:
The past is there as memory which manifests in the form of beliefs, ideals, opinions, prejudices, conclusions and so on. It is disturbing because each one of these manifestations is a form of conflict: the moment I form a belief or an ideal, I am separate from everyone else.

By belief you mean conclusion because most beliefs come from religions. What is wrong with conclusions? I hear some people are so against conclusions . They are against your conclusion which is another conclusion. When you experience something if you learned anything from that experience then that is your conclusion,that is your finding. What is wrong with that? For example I run into someone in discussions who is shameless. Should I forget about it and get in discussion with him again? This is what we have been doing in here. It hasn't worked. To empty the mind from all experiences does not work. It makes one stupid. It is like getting bitten by the same snake from the same hole over and over.
Seeing the false as false (in one self) liberates the mind from false. That is all.

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Mon, 14 Jan 2019 #47
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

Paul Dimmock wrote:
The past is there as memory which manifests in the form of beliefs, ideals, opinions, prejudices, conclusions and so on. It is disturbing because each one of these manifestations is a form of conflict: the moment I form a belief or an ideal, I am separate from everyone else.

By belief you mean conclusion because most beliefs come from religions. What is wrong with conclusions? I hear some people are so against conclusions . They are against your conclusion which is another conclusion. When you experience something if you learned anything from that experience then that is your conclusion,that is your finding. What is wrong with that? For example I run into someone in discussions who is shameless. Should I forget about it and get in discussion with him again? This is what we have been doing in here. It hasn't worked. To empty the mind from all experiences does not work. It makes one stupid. It is like getting bitten by the same snake from the same hole over and over.
Seeing the false as false (in one self) liberates the mind from false. That is all.

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Tue, 15 Jan 2019 #48
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Or one finds out why it hurts to get bitten. Right? Surely that makes far more sense. It may not be anything whatsoever to do with the other person, as stupid or as clever as they are.

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #49
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Or one finds out why it hurts to get bitten. Right? Surely that makes far more sense. It may not be anything whatsoever to do with the other person, as stupid or as clever as they are.

As an example, I am hurt when the image that I have of myself is contradict . I have an image of myself as being an intelligent person, and you say I am stupid, so I become defensive, I protect my image. Then we are in conflict, as you already said. This image that I have of myself is very important ...to myself. Same thing with beleives. My beleif is very important to me. I am attach to it, because it promise me a better life after death. So if you doubt it, I am hurt, which can turn into violence. All conflicts are a form of violence, or end in violence. Why do we have an image of ourselves ? And why do we beleive in an hypothetical god who will save us ? We are not different from our images, whether of me or another; not different from our beleives. We are that.

K.: The content of consciousness is consciousness. Without the content, there is no consciousness. Content is consciousness. The two are not separate.

J. Krishnamurti Tradition and Revolution, New Delhi 11th May 1972

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Wed, 16 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #50
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Or one finds out why it hurts to get bitten. Right?

Unless one gets pleasure out of a snake bite . It is called masochism which is a form of self-destruction.

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #51
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

I just used that story as an example . My point is that emptying the consciousness from illusions is not a matter of will or desire. It is a matter of great investigation into one's mind that no one wants to do. We want quick answers and there are no quick answers to complicated problems.

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #52
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1377 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Why do we have an image of ourselves ?

Because we fear the truth that we are actually nothing?

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #53
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

Dan, yes. That's true.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Wed, 16 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #54
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1377 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
That's true.

So what is there to fear in that, being 'nothing? Every thing else here is also 'nothing' aren't they...but it seems that we are the only ones that fear it?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 16 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #55
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

Aren't we afraid of the idea of being nothing ?

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #56
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

Here is a very interesting part of a dialogue with Pupul, if I may Paul.

PJ: You see, please understand, Krishnaji, it is the brain itself which listens to that statement.

K: Yes, it listens. And then what happens? Just a minute. What happens? If it listens it is quiet.

PJ: It is quiet.

K: It isn't ruminating, it is not going on, 'By Jove, what does he mean', it is not rattling, it is quiet. Right? Wait a minute. When it is actually, not induced quietness, actually when it listens, and there is quietness, then there is insight. I don't have to explain ten different ways the limitation of thought, it is so.

PJ: I see what you're saying.

Is there anything further than...

K: Oh yes there is. There is a great deal more. Which is: is listening a sound? A sound within an area, or I am listening to what you are saying without the verbal sound? If there is a verbal sound I am not listening, I am only understanding the words. But you want to convey to me something much more than the words, so if the words are making a sound in my hearing I can't deeply understand the depth of what you are saying.

So I want to find out something much more. We started with the present. The present is the now, the now is the whole movement of time-thought. Right? It is the whole structure. If the structure of time and thought ends the now has totally a different meaning. The now then is nothing. I mean, when we use the word 'nothing', zero contains all the figures. Right? So nothing contains all. But we are afraid to be nothing.

PJ: When you say it contains the all, is it the essence of all human and racial and environmental, and nature and the cosmos, as such?

K: Yes. No, I would rather... You see, I am talking of the fact of a realisation that there is nothing. The psyche is a bundle of memories - right? - and those memories are dead. They operate, they function, but they are the outcome of past experience which has gone. I am a movement of memories. Right? Now if I have an insight into that, there is nothing. I don't exist.

Dialogue 2 Brockwood Park, England-25 June 1983

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Wed, 16 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #57
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Rich: Here is a very interesting part of a dialogue with Pupul:

K: The psyche is a bundle of memories - right? - and those memories are dead. They operate, they function, but they are the outcome of past experience which has gone. I am a movement of memories. Right? Now if I have an insight into that, there is nothing. I don't exist. (Dialogue 2, Brockwood Park, England -25 June 1983)

Yes, but have we had this insight? Or are we merely borrowing it from K?

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #58
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

Krishnamurti:So I want to find out something much more. We started with the present. The present is the now, the now is the whole movement of time-thought. Right? It is the whole structure. If the structure of time and thought ends the now has totally a different meaning. The now then is nothing. I mean, when we use the word 'nothing', zero contains all the figures. Right? So nothing contains all. But we are afraid to be nothing."

The nothingness that the ordinary Joe who works 9 to 5 thinks he may be is to be poor, or have nothing. The nothingness that k talks about in that paragraph is a physical fact. But our fear of being nothing is psychological and illusory.

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Wed, 16 Jan 2019 #59
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1098 posts in this forum Online

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Yes, but have we had this insight?

How does one know that he has had an insight? What is insight? What are we talking about here? With who's definition are we using all these words? Are we unconsciously trying to confuse ourselves? Unless we answer correctly to these questions we will continue doing the Merry go around as before.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 16 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 17 Jan 2019 #60
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 328 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Yes, but have we had this insight? Or are we merely borrowing it from K?

I think that from here, it is up to each one of us to see by ourselves Paul. Whether one have an insight into all that or not, who can tell ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 17 Jan 2019.

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