Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Can we ask the right question?


Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 330 in total
Mon, 31 Dec 2018 #1
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

Let's take some little time over it and find out.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Jan 2019 #2
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 890 posts in this forum Offline

K explains what right kind of questions are.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Jan 2019 #3
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

I'm sure he's not the only one who will explain such things for us. But can we come up with the right question between us? That's what I am asking.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Jan 2019 #4
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 890 posts in this forum Offline

The right question to me is , can the mind be free from all illusions?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Jan 2019 #5
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

Then let's explore what we mean by being free from illusions. What is the quality of such a mind?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 01 Jan 2019 #6
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 890 posts in this forum Offline

Let's explore what we mean by illusions first then what is the quality of the mind that is free from illusions.
Illusions take over the mind when we don't want to face what is. Illusions are escapes from what is. Death is a fact of life . we are afraid of death and religions offer the illusion of immortality and we escape to them for comfort. Loneliness is a fact but we escape from loneliness into the illusion of a family for security. Violence is a fact but we escape from the fact into the illusion of none violence. So our lives is a series of illusions and escapes. Illusions offer some kind of security don't they? As long as we seek psychological security we live in illusions,don't we?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 02 Jan 2019 #7
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

So an illusion is anything put together by the mind.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 02 Jan 2019 #8
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 890 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
So an illusion is anything put together by the mind.

Illusion is thought escaping the fact. The mind is the totality of the brain and the body and thought. Thought is always partial and when a part takes control of the whole illusions become inevitable.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 03 Jan 2019 #9
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

But this explanation of thought may also be part of the illusion. Having explained all this, are we then free of the illusions? Or are we merely caught up in a more subtle form of illusion, which is the illusion of explanations?

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Thu, 03 Jan 2019 #10
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

The explanation is not the thing. The description is not what is describe. Whether we explain or describe from memory or from insight is not the same.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 03 Jan 2019 #11
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

Therefore do we need to describe at all?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 03 Jan 2019 #12
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1339 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Therefore do we need to describe at all?

Well if we wish to communicate with one another about all this, we do. If it is kept in mind that the description is not what has been seen or felt, 'thought' with language is the only means we have to do this. Is it valuable? I think so. My description or understanding of an experience may vary greatly from another's and that can give me pause to look again. Self-centered thought is devious and can be defensive when challenged as we see both in ourselves and around us.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 03 Jan 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 03 Jan 2019 #13
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

Yes. Describing, explaining, thinking together, is a mean of communication. Though, the expression of the truth is not in explanation, description, but rather in action in the world. One have to discover what is love, compassion. Then love is his own expression, his own action. Truth is far more important than his description. Can it be communicate ? Can it be given by another, to another ? Or does it have to be discover in oneself ?

The tool is not the intellect, or the memory. Or even analysis. But rather perception.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 03 Jan 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 03 Jan 2019 #14
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 890 posts in this forum Offline

Now that we are clear that the description is never the described can we use words and not to be used by words? That is extremely difficult because some how we slip into the idea that description is the described. To see the difference between the description and the described in discussions is intelligence.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 04 Jan 2019 #15
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

Paul: Do we need to describe at all?

Dan: Well if we wish to communicate with one another about all this, we do.

I am not so sure. Therefore let's find out. Let's see if it is possible to communicate with one another without a single description or explanation. That would be something non-verbal that operates on a totally different level.

Rich: The expression of the truth is not in explanation, description, but rather in action in the world. One has to discover what is love, compassion. Then love is its own expression, its own action.

Yes, that's what I am getting at. Are we concerned with love? Let's put it this way and see what happens.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 04 Jan 2019 #16
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
I am not so sure. Therefore let's find out. Let's see if it is possible to communicate with one another without a single description or explanation. That would be something non-verbal that operates on a totally different level.

The word is description, explanation, isn't it ? And we have to use words to communicate. What is it that you call non-verbal communication , if I may ask.

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Are we concerned with love? Let's put it this way and see what happens.

Are we ? Does life has any meaning without love ?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 04 Jan 2019 #17
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet: What is it that you call non-verbal communication, if I may ask? ... Does life have any meaning without love?

A non-verbal communication is something that bypasses the cognitive processes of language. In other words, it may be a look or a gesture or a touch. But it may also be a verbal expression too, which is all we have to play with here. To convey anything to one another by look, gesture or touch is denied us; yet it doesn't mean we can't communicate except through descriptions and explanations, which are both very limited forms of human intercourse.

So what is love? Before we say anything else about it, do we even know what this word means? Putting aside all the thousands of descriptions and explanations of love that have come down to us through the ages, what actually is love? And do we love one another?

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Fri, 04 Jan 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 04 Jan 2019 #18
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

What is love ? K. suggest to look at it in the negative way. I think it is brilliant. It bypass all the definition or description , which would limit what love is. So shouldn't we ask what love is not ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 05 Jan 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 05 Jan 2019 #19
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 890 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
So shouldn't we ask what love is not ?

Bellow is a post of what dictionary means by the word"love". Does one have to negate every meaning of the word "love" that is in the dictionary and?

Is love the outcome of thought,thinking?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 05 Jan 2019 #20
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 890 posts in this forum Offline

love (l?v)
vb
1. (tr) to have a great attachment to and affection for
2. (tr) to have passionate desire, longing, and feelings for
3. (tr) to like or desire (to do something) very much
4. (tr) to make love to
5. (intr) to be in love
n
6.
a. an intense emotion of affection, warmth, fondness, and regard towards a person or thing
b. (as modifier): love song; love story.
7. a deep feeling of sexual attraction and desire
8. wholehearted liking for or pleasure in something
9. (Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity
a. God's benevolent attitude towards man
b. man's attitude of reverent devotion towards God
10. Also: my love a beloved person: used esp as an endearment
11. informal Brit a term of address, esp but not necessarily for a person regarded as likable
12. (Individual Sports, other than specified) (in tennis, squash, etc) a score of zero
13. fall in love to become in love
14. for love without payment
15. for love or money (used with a negative) in any circumstances: I wouldn't eat a snail for love or money.
16. for the love of for the sake of
17. in love in a state of strong emotional attachment and usually sexual attraction
18. make love
a. to have sexual intercourse (with)
b. archaic to engage in courtship (with)
[Old English lufu; related to Old High German luba; compare also Latin lib?re (originally lub?re) to please]

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 05 Jan 2019 #21
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 890 posts in this forum Offline

Let's face it , we don't love, that is why the world is what it is, based on money.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 05 Jan 2019 #22
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

Rich: What is love? K suggests to look at it in the negative way. I think it is brilliant. It bypasses all the definition or description, which would limit what love is. So shouldn't we ask what love is not?

One Self: Let's face it, we don't love, that is why the world is what it is, based on money.

It's very simple: we don't know what love is. All the words that have been used to describe it - attachment, attraction, desire - and all the other words that encircle these feelings - jealousy, envy, hate et cetera - are all pointing to something that continually strengthens the sense of the centre, the self or the ego. But does love have a centre? Does love have a source? Generally speaking, human passions and affections have a cause: one likes or admires something for a reason, for the reward of pleasure that one receives. But does passion itself truly have a cause? Does affection have a cause? I am putting together these three words - love, passion and affection - because they are intimately connected. But at their heart, what are they? We are extremely familiar with the outward appearance of them, with the superficial and traditional meanings. But we want to go much deeper than that. Have we got the energy to go deeper?

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Sat, 05 Jan 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 05 Jan 2019 #23
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

O.K. So I said: One has to discover what love is. Does all the definition of the dictionary help us to be more loving ? To have affection, love and compassion without a cause ? You say that all the definitions of love pointed to:

Paul Dimmock wrote:
- are all pointing to something that continually strengthens the sense of the centre, the self or the ego. But does love have a centre?

So your question is: does love have a center? And what do we mean by a center , self
and ego ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 05 Jan 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 06 Jan 2019 #24
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

Let's try another approach. Caring , being affectionate and to love is a very simple thing. When I say I love you, without any motive or cause, it is simple. Seeing a mother with her child; helping someone who falls on the sidewalk is spontaneous and without motives. If there is a motive, a cause, like I love you because you give me my pleasure or money or an advancement at work is not what we are trying to talk about. In one hand we have love; on the other we have the mind. Isn't it that the mind pervert the heart ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sun, 06 Jan 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 06 Jan 2019 #25
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

Have you ever take someone in your arms ? Or see someone else helping or comforting another ? Or a mother giving love and affection to his baby, to his child ?

The mother conditioning her child is another matter.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sun, 06 Jan 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 06 Jan 2019 #26
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

Rich: So your question is: does love have a center? And what do we mean by a center, self and ego?

Therefore let's find out first about the nature and structure of the centre. Is it possible both to operate from the centre and also to love? Or love may only exist when there is no centre. Everything that comes from the centre is not love. Therefore to understand the centre is to understand what love is not, which was your original suggestion.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 06 Jan 2019 #27
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

Yes. So what is it that we name the center ? If I may ask.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 06 Jan 2019 #28
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 124 posts in this forum Offline

What is at the centre of oneself? What is the 'I' that says, 'I exist'?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 06 Jan 2019 #29
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

What is it ? Not sure I see where you are getting at.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 06 Jan 2019 #30
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 318 posts in this forum Offline

Does the I exist without his attributes, his possessions ? Like, I am a doctor; or I am a great man; and the image we have of ourselves? Or this is mine and not yours, my possessions, and so on?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sun, 06 Jan 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 330 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)