Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What are some less known, perhaps overlooked, K teachings?


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Thu, 27 Dec 2018 #31
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Yes, let's descend to the lowest common denominator.

You mean with like with many of the cartoons you post?

You know that is not what I was saying Ken. Idiot seems to believe that she is being non-violent and is a part from violence when she accuses others of being violent. That is also a kind of violence. She seems to believe that she is someone above the fray here and not, herself, subject to being violent. She is separating herself from the rest of humanity or at least from some people on this forum.

Are we separate human beings or do we share a common conditioning which includes violence? Can we escape violence by simply accusing others of being violent while declaring directly or indirectly that we are not part of violence?

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Thu, 27 Dec 2018 #32
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 801 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
That story is so half-baked that you most likely made it up on the spot.

You need to read Krishnamurti and stop making a fool out of yourself in Krishnamurti site. Krishnamurti said that story many times, do your homework . You didn't even clarified what win said. Then again how could you!

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Thu, 27 Dec 2018 #33
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 801 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Get off your high-horse sister and join the rest of humanity.

It would be a nightmare to be a sister of jack.:-)

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Thu, 27 Dec 2018 #34
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1244 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
The other brother closes his ears, he doesn't want to hear, and the other brother hears it. And for the rest of his life he is in pain."

Oh man, It's even visable who the brother who listened is !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 27 Dec 2018 #35
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 801 posts in this forum Offline

The other brother who didn't listen must be in prison by now. :=)

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #36
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Idiot is a she?

I have not specified a gender, a race, a sexual orientation, a religious upbringing, or any such nonsense that people use to create division.

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #37
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I have not specified a gender, a race, a sexual orientation, a religious upbringing, or any such nonsense that people use to create division.

No, you seem to be satisfied with creating division by implying others are "violent" while leaving the impression that you are beyond all that. Disagreement is not necessarily violence.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 28 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #38
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
The other brother closes his ears, he doesn't want to hear, and the other brother hears it. And for the rest of his life he is in pain."

You know, it still sounds half-baked. Even when the village fool is not paraphrasing it.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 28 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #39
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
you seem to be satisfied with creating division by implying others are "violent" while leaving the impression that you are beyond all that.

Nonsense. Of course, I am not above all that. But it is crystal clear to me and to many others here that engaging in personal attacks just degenerates the forum and contributes nothing.

Naturally the people who attack feel completely justified. To them they are setting things straight.

I wonder if they have really considered what K says about respect. It is important to respect the servant as well as the so called superior. It is important to respect everyone. Some here may make points more clearly than others. Some may seem to understand K and others may not, to some degree or the other. Respect for all is what K talked about.

No one has a problem with disagreeing when done with respect and with friendliness. But is that what happens here?

I'm fine leaving if people prefer a cage fight. But when I have left, others have written to me and asked me to return. They don't want the cage fighters to take over.

So as usual, it's up to us. What kind of world do we want to create?

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #40
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But it is crystal clear to me and to many others here that engaging in personal attacks just degenerates the forum and contributes nothing.

Why don't you ever give this speech to the idiot who is constantly, blindly attacking me? Is it because you know he is impaired or is it because he blindly sides with you? Don't you think you have to be impartial if you're going to judge who you think is doing things not to the benefit of this forum?

And there is a difference between personal attacks and disagreement of the subject matter being presented.

idiot ? wrote:
I wonder if they have really considered what K says about respect. It is important to respect the servant as well as the so called superior.

I'm glad you brought this up. I felt like you were disrespecting K with your uninformed criticism of his supposed lack of gratitude and his so-called superstitions. By the way I had a chance to talk to Michael Krohnen a couple of weeks ago. We've known each other for 40 years and I asked him if he thought K showed a lack of gratitude. He looked at me for a second or two like I may have been joking then he laughed and said of course not. Same thing with superstition. I told him that a poster on Kinfonet had accused K of both. He asked me what is Kinfonet. He had never heard of it.

I'm not saying Michael is an authority on K but he did talk to him quite a bit and spend a lot of time with K when K was in Ojai. He mentioned he cooked for K for about 11 years. He also occasionally traveled with K to India, Switzerland and England.

idiot ? wrote:
I'm fine leaving if people prefer a cage fight. But when I have left, others have written to me and asked me to return. They don't want the cage fighters to take over.

Do you see how this statement is, in itself, one of violence? You are calling unnamed but identifiable people on this forum "cage fighters" and violent and other names. Can you see how this can be a very offensive thing to say about someone? Also, I thought it was a violence toward K to hammer on what you believe were his superstitions and lack of gratitude.

As you wrote above, "Naturally the people who attack feel completely justified. To them they are setting things straight." Do you see that to others this may seem to them to be what you are doing?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 28 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #41
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But it is crystal clear to me and to many others here that engaging in personal attacks just degenerates the forum and contributes nothing.

Why don't you ever give this speech to the idiot who is constantly, blindly attacking me? Is it because you know he is impaired or is it because he blindly sides with you? Don't you think you have to be impartial if you're going to judge who you think is doing things not to the benefit of this forum?

And there is a difference between personal attacks and disagreement of the subject matter being presented?

idiot ? wrote:
I wonder if they have really considered what K says about respect. It is important to respect the servant as well as the so called superior.

I'm glad you brought this up. I felt like you were disrespecting K with your uninformed criticism of his supposed lack of gratitude and his so-called superstitions. By the way I had a chance to talk to Michael Krohnen a couple of weeks ago. We've known each other for many years and I asked him if he thought K showed a lack of gratitude. He looked at me for a second or two like I may have been joking then he laughed and said of course not. Same thing with superstition. I told him that a poster on Kinfonet had accused K of both. He asked me what is Kinfonet. He had never heard of it.

I'm not saying Michael is an authority on K but he did talk to him quite a bit and spend a lot of time with K when K was in Ojai. He mentioned he cooked for K for about 11 years. He also occasionally traveled with K to India, Switzerland and England.

idiot ? wrote:
I'm fine leaving if people prefer a cage fight. But when I have left, others have written to me and asked me to return. They don't want the cage fighters to take over.

Do you see how this statement is, in itself, one of violence? You are calling unnamed but identifiable people on this forum "cage fighters" and violent and other names. Can you see how this can be a very offensive thing to say about someone? Also, I thought it was a violence toward K to hammer on what you believe were his superstitions and lack of gratitude.

As you wrote above, "Naturally the people who attack feel completely justified. To them they are setting things straight." Do you see that to others this may seem to them to be what you are doing?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 28 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #42
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Idiot is a she?

Well, why assume idiot? is a man? It's convenient to use a pronoun instead of the whole name with question mark and the only one that comes to mind right now that is genderless is "it". To call someone "it" might be considered offensive or even violent by some. My impression of the person using the handle "idiot?" is that she is female. I don't know for sure of course and don't really care. It's just a felling I get from the way she writes and what she writes about.

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #43
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
By the way I had a chance to talk to Michael Krohnen.

Yes, I have met him and he is a very nice person. I also read his book. It's a little weird how he stalked K in the beginning. Eventually he became a fine cook for K and K's entourage in Ojai. In his book, both he and K seem unaware that a number of the stories K told were Zen stories. I have pointed out some of these in previous posts.

It's unfortunate that you misled him by telling him that I said that K lacked gratitude. Of course, the thread was about going into the question of gratitude. We discovered that K rarely spoke about the topic. We found only one early talk of any length about it. We did find K expressing thanks in various situations. I have no doubt that K was gracious and kind in interactions. I cannot help if you hold onto misinterpretations about that thread.

Now you are correct in saying that in another thread we found that parts of Mary Zimbalist's book describe what seem like superstitions. K's drawing of protection circles and saying that he saw fairies were some of the issues mentioned in her book. K may not have discussed these with Michael Krohnen. In fact, in his book, Krohnen says that K usually asked him to summarize current events for him during their lunches. Probably K didn't read newspapers and liked to know a little bit about the news of the world.

I am not attacking you. When you drop hostility I am happy to dialogue with you just like anyone else. I am pointing out that attacks on people here are detrimental to the forum. And yes, you have frequently attacked a number of people here. But that doesn't mean you will continue to. That is in the past and doesn't have to be now.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 28 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #44
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 742 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
That is in the past and doesn't have to be now.

I think this could be a good starting point. Let's face it, there are only a few people who come here regularly. If we are the forum it must be possible to make this place an interesting, agreeable place to come to where we can explore Krishnamurti's teachings together and maybe even learn something. Perhaps we could all try, in as effortless a way as possible, to understand each other a little more. Does this make any sense at all?

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #45
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
If we are the forum it must be possible to make this place an interesting, agreeable place to come to where we can explore Krishnamurti's teachings together and maybe even learn something. Perhaps we could all try, in as effortless a way as possible, to understand each other a little more. Does this make any sense at all?

Yes, it does to me.

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #46
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 801 posts in this forum Offline

Said before ,when there is a group of people in a forum who are hidden behind words it is almost impossible to "think together" in the sense that Krishnamurti explained in the video. There is always one or two bad apples in Krishnamurti sites. The problem is that the bad apples are aggressive and dominate the site until somebody gets banned and then they settle down for a while until starting all over again(notice that I am avoiding to be personal but if someone started it I will respond accordingly). Don't expect anything from this or the other Krishnamurti discussion sites. Except people pointing out to the videos and articles from Krishnamurti. That is all.

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #47
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1899 posts in this forum Offline

What is this obsession with 'thinking together'? Sounds a lot like consensus reality, and humanity already has a surplus of that.

Try standing alone!

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Fri, 28 Dec 2018 #48
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
What is this obsession with 'thinking together'? Sounds a lot like consensus reality, and humanity already has a surplus of that.

We're looking at some less noticed K teachings on this thread. And one thing K talked about, somewhat rarely, was "thinking together." K clearly doesn't mean forced consensus or agreement. He doesn't seem to mean the negative thing we call "group think." It is more like when he asked, "Can we go into this question together?" I would say that he was encouraging active and attentive listening, and jointly seeing if the question was true in our lives.

The text that Jack posted above and the audio that I cited above have K describing what he means by "thinking together."

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #49
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 801 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti: Sir, one of our problems of this morning which we were talking about, the difficulty of thinking together. Not about something, but the capacity to think together.

Bohm: Yes.

K: I wonder what prevents people doing that. Is it their opinions, is it their conclusions, their concepts, their ideals, their tremendous deep-rooted prejudices?

B: I feel it is because people stick to this thing, you see, that they have an opinion which they are identified with and they don't know it but they are sticking to it.

K: Is that what prevents people from thinking together, co-operating together?

B: Well that is clearly a major factor, you see, you can see it politically, let's say East and West.

K: Oh, politically, of course.

Small group Brockwood park 1982

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #50
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 801 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
And one thing K talked about, somewhat rarely, was "thinking together."

On the contrary he talked about "thinking together" all the time. But it seems like people in this site hardly study the teachings and yet have a lot of words to throw around.

This post was last updated by One Self Sat, 29 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #51
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 801 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti:The art of thinking together needs to be studied carefully, examined to see whether it is at all possible. Each one clings to his own way of thinking according to his own particular reactions, experiences, prejudices. This is how we are conditioned, and it prevents having the capacity to think together. Thinking together does not mean being of one mind. Our minds can come together about an ideal, an historical conclusion or some philosophical concept, and work for that, but this is essentially based on authority. Freedom is the essence of thinking together. You must be free from your concepts, prejudices, and so on. I too must be free, and we come together in this freedom. It means dropping all our conditioning. It implies complete attention without any past. The present world crisis demands that we totally abandon our tribal instincts that have become glorified as nationalism. Thinking together implies that we totally abandon self- interest and identifying ourselves as British, Arab, russian and so on.

Chapter 40 - Freedom is the essence of thinking together

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #52
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I am not attacking you. When you drop hostility I am happy to dialogue with you just like anyone else.

Let me point out something to you. You are setting conditions upon which you will talk to me. If I, in your opinion, "drop hostility" then you're happy to talk to me. When you set conditions on people you are, in effect, trying to condition them. Idiot?, I really don't care too much about what makes you happy.

One of the reasons I don't take you too seriously is that you seem to concentrate on me when it comes to hostility and ignore the troll with the room temperature IQ who is constantly trying to insult me. You know who I mean, the guy who recently wrote that he has studied K more than I ever have. What an incredibly stupid, and hostile, thing to say. Nothing from you. To be an effective critic you should be more consistent.

You don't see your own hostility. Your attacks on K based on a few things others wrote as one example. You say you got some of your information from John R? You are aware that he "translates" K for us because, apparently, he figures we can't understand K without his help. You can't be sure anything you read on John's site hasn't been changed so us lesser humans can understand K.

You need to understand your own passive-aggressive hostility and violence before you go around denouncing others. You are not the moderator of this forum. Say what you have to say, if you must, and let others do the same. No one is forcing you to be here.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 29 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #53
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It's unfortunate that you misled him by telling him that I said that K lacked gratitude.

You're kidding right?

The title for your thread was "K's surprising lack of gratitude". One of the first paragraphs in that thread is posted below.

Idiot? wrote:

I don't find him expressing gratitude personally either. You would think he would have been grateful to Annie Besant. What I have found is him paying tribute to her for giving him the freedom to discover, but without an explicit thank you. Certainly many wealthy donors provided him and his organizations with a tremendous amount of financing.

What does this look like to you idiot? Does it look like you are saying K lacks gratitude? It sure does to me.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 29 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #54
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

The thread is called "The surprising lack of gratitude," not "K's." Small detail but true.

If you look up K talking about Annie Besant you find him praising her highly but I couldn't find an expression of gratitude to her. Simply a fact, not a judgment. But if you can find an example of him expressing gratitude for her, I'd love to be corrected.

Same with thanking wealthy donors. It is a fact that I could find very few examples of it. I'm not saying he should have thanked them. I'm not passing judgment. I'm stating what I found to be the factual situation and I'm happy to be corrected if it is not.

This was the start of the thread so I wanted to share what I had found so far. Together we found much, much more. Also the parts of my first post that you left out are even more relevant. It's still there unedited for anyone who wants to read it and the entire thread.

In particular, I mentioned that many spiritual teachers talk about gratitude, feeling gratitude, and its importance. K didn't talk about it much. Again, no judgment. I'm not saying he should have or shouldn't have. I'm saying it is an interesting difference. And we discussed it at length.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 29 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #55
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
"The surprising lack of gratitude," not "K's."

Oh come on. Be honest. What about the paragraph from that thread that I posted above. You are talking about K's lack of gratitude. Do you really deny that you were discussing K's lack of gratitude in the thread you started about gratitude? It's all there in black and white.

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #56
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5367 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I'm not saying he should have thanked them. I'm not passing judgment.

Idiot?, it is very apparent that you are and were doing both. Just as you passed judgement on K being superstitious. You read a few lines from Mary K's book and bingo you think K is superstitious. You know there are something like 500 pages in that book? Why don't you hold your judgement until you read the whole book? And then still hold your judgement.

What is more important? What K discovered and shared with the world or a few personal things he did in private? My question has always been, why dwell on the latter?

Now if my not agreeing with you by pointing out your inconsistent statements is what you consider violence or hostility that's just your opinion and one I don't share with you.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 29 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #57
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

I realize that you thought and think that I was being judgmental of K and critical of him, with regard to gratitude. But I was not. It remains interesting that K didn't talk much about gratitude. And it was interesting for us to explore a topic that he did not talk about very much. The thread is still there for anyone to read. It is still open if people want to talk more about the issue.

With respect to K's superstitions, I do judge him. The superstitious stuff that Mary Zimbalist reports about him does seem nuts. That thread is also open.

To me, both of those threads are in the past. I've let go of them. But if you want to keep them going, that is fine.

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #58
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 477 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
What is more important? What K discovered and shared with the world or a few personal things he did in private? My question has always been, why dwell on the latter?

I agree with you that K's teachings are much more important. I encouraged you to start a thread on K's most important teachings. You did not. So I did. There I have stated some of the very most important things he discussed, in my opinion. So far there has just been a little participation on that thread and no one besides me has really talked about what they consider most important in K's teaching. I hope people will. I will also add more there.

How K lived his life is also important, if less important than what he spoke about.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 29 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 29 Dec 2018 #59
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 801 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Freedom is the essence of thinking together. You must be free from your concepts, prejudices, and so on. I too must be free, and we come together in this freedom.

Is that not something k said that is less known ?

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Sun, 30 Dec 2018 #60
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 801 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti: Freedom is the essence of thinking together. You must be free from your concepts, prejudices, and so on. I too must be free, and we come together in this freedom.

Krishnamurti practically said if you are free let's think together ,if you are not free get the hell away from me.:-) He showed that in so many ways.

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