Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What K teachings are central for you?


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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 #1
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Of course, it is impossible to condense K's vast teaching into a few sentences or paragraphs. Nevertheless, I am curious to know if there are a few teachings of K that to you are extremely important. You can quote K to state them or you can say them in your own words. What is really central, urgent, most important in what K points out?

Just off the top of my head I'd answer: awareness of what is, real meditation, and love (which is approached negatively to discover what love is not). All of these are, in a way, the same thing approached from different angles. There is an unsayable that underlies K teaching, the sayable being understandable by thought. K uses careful thought and consideration of many possibilities to take us to the brink of thought. Then it is for us to jump if we will. Again, psychological death, death of the separative self reborn into the now, is another angle. The observer merging into the observed. These are all important ideas to investigate that urge you to where ideas cannot go.

What is really important in K teaching? Is he expressing one thing in a multitude of ways or is he expressing many important matters? Or both?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 24 Dec 2018.

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Mon, 24 Dec 2018 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Another central teaching, to me, is transformation. If I am aware of my grouchiness, my annoyance, my nastiness, and they just stay there, then am I really, really aware of them? Or do I sort of notice them and then go on with my inner and outer conflict? No, when there is full awareness, then moment to moment change is!

Of course, one must be careful of the self trying to gain, to get something out of awareness. But there is also complacency: being just fine with being a conflicted and violent mess. That is not true awareness either. In true awareness, there is transformation.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 24 Dec 2018.

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Tue, 25 Dec 2018 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
That is not true awareness either. In true awareness, there is transformation.

Is true awareness and transformation a fact or a theory for you, for all of us?

I am asking this question not to be impertinent or disruptive. It's a question we need to ask ourselves. It's so easy to use words but do they represent what is real for us or just a theory based on what we have read or heard?

K asked this question frequently when he was in a dialogue with Buddhists. The recording of this dialogue was published in the book, "Can Humanity Change?"

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 25 Dec 2018.

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Tue, 25 Dec 2018 #4
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Is true awareness and transformation a fact or a theory for you, for all of us?

It is an important question to ask. It really is something to be discovered moment by moment, isn't it? One moment I notice my hostility and in awareness it transforms, it dissolves. The next moment I am lost in my thoughts and judgements, I'm unaware, and perhaps I treat someone cruelly, with insufficient attention, caring.

So in any moment, awareness and transformation may or may not be, yes?

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Wed, 26 Dec 2018 #5
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 862 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
One moment I notice my hostility and in awareness it transforms, it dissolves. The next moment I am lost in my thoughts and judgements, I'm unaware, and perhaps I treat someone cruelly, with insufficient attention, caring.

So in any moment, awareness and transformation may or may not be, yes?

Hello idiot? and all. I think what is written above describes very well the reality for many of us with awareness coming and going throughout the day. I had always understood transformation, in the sense that Krishnamurti uses the word, as something different. However, these are all just words. Jack, you spoke about "true awareness". What exactly do you mean by this? Are there different kinds of awareness?

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Wed, 26 Dec 2018 #6
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I had always understood transformation, in the sense that Krishnamurti uses the word, as something different.

Please, how do you understand transformation?

Here is what K actually says about it:

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, On Transformation:
Is this transformation, is this radical revolution, an ultimate thing or is it from moment to moment? I know we should like it to be the ultimate thing, because it is so much easier to think from far away. Ultimately we shall be transformed, ultimately we shall be happy, ultimately we shall find truth, in the meantime, let us carry on. Surely such a mind is thinking in terms of the future, is incapable of acting in the present. Therefore such a mind is not seeking transformation; it is merely avoiding transformation.

What do we mean by transformation? Transformation is not in the future, can never be in the future. It can only be now, from moment to moment. So what do we mean by transformation? Surely it is very simple:seeing the false as the false and the true as the true. Seeing the truth in the false and seeing the false in that which has been accepted as the truth. Seeing the false as the false and the true as the true is transformation, because when you see something very clearly as the truth, that truth liberates.

...
Love is not different from truth. Love is that state in which the thought process, as time, has completely ceased. Where love is, there is transformation. Without love, revolution has no meaning, for then revolution is merely destruction, decay, a greater and greater ever-mounting misery. Where there is love, there is revolution, because love is transformation from moment to moment.

I have to say that the chapters On Love and On Transformation in the First and Last Freedom are so, so worth reading. I'd like them read at my funeral! When it comes to core Krishnamurti, these two brief chapters are, in my opinion, right up there at the top. Real love and real transformation (which are the same). The present crisis cries out for real love and transformation, doesn't it?!!

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 26 Dec 2018.

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Wed, 26 Dec 2018 #7
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I'd like them read at my funeral!

I've read First and Last Freedom in the seventies, and it was so revolutionary. It surely clarified many things in my own mind. I was so upset at that time. I suspect that you weren't really serious, still, it is better than it is read and understand when one is young :-).

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 27 Dec 2018.

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Thu, 27 Dec 2018 #8
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 862 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Please, how do you understand transformation?

idiot ? wrote:
Here is what K actually says about it:

Hi idiot?. The quote you posted was a good one so thanks for that. I think we keep coming back to awareness as absolutely key to understanding. Awareness seems to come and go in my experience. I have moments when I would say that I am much more aware, both inwardly and outwardly, than others. Both you and Jack talked about "true awareness". Can you say what you mean by this?

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Thu, 27 Dec 2018 #9
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Both you and Jack talked about "true awareness". Can you say what you mean by this?

Yes. True awareness means being truly aware and not just repeating a word that has become an ideal, a theory with which we have deluded ourselves into believing is actually occurring.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #10
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
"true awareness". Can you say what you mean by this?

Awareness is awareness. It is not my intention to say that there are different kinds of awareness, or true versus false awareness.

I am just saying that K talks about transformation which comes out of awareness, and this transformation is very important: I am greedy. I am aware of my greediness. I am aware that I am my greediness, that it is not separate from me. Since it is me, I can do nothing. Full stop. It transforms!

I think that sometimes people may follow K all the way, except for the last, very important step: the transformation. They finish with complacency. They say, yes, I am greed, there is nothing I can do, I must live forever with the awful greediness that I am. But K talks about transformation! When there really is awareness, surrender, then transformation is! Change is! What is is not stagnant. It is in flux. If I truly see the truth of my greediness and the harm it does, how can it hold? We must see fully! We must be fully. But too often we are partial. Therefore we are fragmented. Therefore there isn't transformation. Therefore we go on doing harm to ourselves and others, with our greed or whatever.

Don't take my word for it. Read what K says about transformation, moment by moment. And most importantly, see for yourself if it is so.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #11
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I think that sometimes people may follow K all the way, except for the last, very important step: the transformation.

I know that this is going to appear to be a bit on the "nit-picky" side as often happens on this forum. But I think the above quoted statement raises an interesting and perhaps pervasive view of K's discoveries.

Can one "follow" K to anything let alone transformation? Does K ask us to follow him to freedom? Or does he point out, repeatedly, that the individual with his/her own psychological self must end by insight which is immediate. Not of time. Not a gradual becoming. Not end for any purpose or to gain anything. K can't do that for you. But rather the illusory thought invented self ends because there is a awareness of the limitation of knowledge/thought which is the core of the illusory self.

And then there is the other troubling point raised in the quote with respect to "following". It suggests time. As most of us are aware, K has pointed out there is no psychological evolution. No eventual change if one just stays with it. Is transformation the end result of effort?

All of us have been conditioned to believe that if we just work hard enough we can eventually get what we want. This concept doesn't seem to be the key where K's discoveries are concerned. On the other hand working hard with the goal of saving up and buying a new car may work very well. This is not sarcasm. I am trying to be clear.

I do not claim to be transformed so I can't give you a first-hand account but K often pointed out that time is not a factor to discovery of the truth is all that I am pointing out.

I realize that I may be interpreting what idiot? wrote too literally but it is not to harass but to clarify.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

Idiot?, I think we may be saying the same thing only I think we need to make it clear. I have added today's quote because I think it is very relevant to what both of us are trying to point out. Also I think the quote is very clearly worded and very interesting.

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day

Bombay, India | January 1968

Freedom cannot be given; freedom is something that comes into being when you do not seek it; it comes into being only when you know you are a prisoner, when you know for yourself completely the state of being conditioned, when you know you are held by society, by culture, by tradition, held by whatever you have been told. Freedom is order - it is never disorder - and one must have freedom, completely, both outwardly and inwardly; without freedom there is no clarity; without freedom you can't love; without freedom you can't find truth; without freedom you can't go beyond the limitation of the mind. You must demand it with all your being. When you so demand it, you will find out for yourself what order is - and order is not the following of a pattern, a design; it is not the outcome of habit.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #13
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Can one "follow" K to anything let alone transformation?

Of course, you need to do your own discovery and you need freedom to do it.

Have you noticed when K talked, he sometimes softly asked, "You follow?" Or some other such question to see if everyone was together in the line of thought that they were exploring. Sometimes this "You follow?" might get edited out in the transcription but you can hear it in the audio and video recordings. If people were not together, thinking together, then he elaborated and clarified. He considered more cases. But if everyone was more or less with him, he moved on to the next step.

The question of time in transformation is important, as you say. Implied in the word "transformation" is, for most of us, the passage of time. The word basically means that things were one way, a change happened, and now things are a different way. But for K, transformation is "moment to moment." Not ultimate. That is what he says. So in the kind of transformation K is talking about, there is renewal of awareness in the now. When we clearly see the limitations of our own greediness, or whatever, and how those limitations conflict with what is, and how the limitations are our very own created blockage of freedom, then the outside of time may manifest.

We have to find out for ourselves. So it all goes back to paying attention. Moment by moment. Alone. In relationship. Awareness of what is. Since what is is not stagnant, movement is. It cannot be caught and frozen. It is free. And so the outside of time is also not frozen and stagnant. It's not different from what is.

None of this has any meaning unless you freely look for yourself and discover. To discover is to have no pre-conception.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 09 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #14
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1300 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K:Seeing the false as the false and the true as the true is transformation, because when you see something very clearly as the truth, that truth liberates.

So there has to be intelligence first. How can a twisted and blind mind who merely condemns or justifies ,agrees or disagrees all the time see the true as true and false as false? It can't.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #15
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
How can a twisted and blind mind who merely condemns or justifies ,agrees or disagrees all the time see the true as true and false as false?

It's very easy to see someone else condemning, justifying, agreeing, disagreeing. It's very hard to see it in myself. The self is built to self-protect, to boost itself. It depends on not seeing clearly its activities.

This is why K comes back again and again to awareness, self-knowledge.

Most of us need to turn the microscope 180 degrees, away from others, and back on ourselves, yes?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 09 Jan 2019.

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #16
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1300 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It's very easy to see someone else condemning, justifying, agreeing, disagreeing. It's very hard to see it in myself.

One can stop condemning a child and merely observe him . That is easy. The problem starts when one condemns oneself . when one looks inside it is much harder not to condemn.
Say greed, can one look at greed without the condemnation that comes with that word "greed"?

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Wed, 09 Jan 2019 #17
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
can one look at greed without the condemnation that comes with that word "greed"?

That is what most people do. They justify and rationalize their greed. They certainly don't want to face the issues of wanting much more than they need. They don't want to see how the self, wanting more and more, wanting to expand more and more, whether in possessions, or knowledge, or skill, is indulging in a never-ending insatiable thirst. They don't want to see how this pits what they want against what is. And the dissatisfaction that entails. And so on.

Is it condemnation to see that actual working of greed? Or is it rather self-deception to deny the functioning of greed?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 09 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #18
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Most of us need to turn the microscope 180 degrees, away from others, and back on ourselves, yes?

Is that what you are doing? Was that what you were doing when you tried to pin superstition and lack of gratitude on Krishnamurti?

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Have you noticed when K talked, he sometimes softly asked, "You follow?"

You know there is a certain blatant desperation in this quote above. I am sure you are aware as I am that K was not suggesting that you become his follower but rather using the word "follow" as a figure of speech meaning, in this case, "do you understand".

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #20
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
K was not suggesting that you become his follower but rather using the word "follow" as a figure of speech meaning, in this case, "do you understand".

No desperation. K was using the word "follow" exactly the way I was. For some reason, you made it into being a "follower."

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #21
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1432 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Is it condemnation to see that actual working of greed? Or is it rather self-deception to deny the functioning of greed?

If you've named the sensation "greed" or charity, the judgement has already been made, hasn't it? 'Greed' is 'bad', 'charity' is 'good'. That is how we've been 'conditioned' to look at ourselves. Through comparison, through whatever 'moral' structure and cultural structure we've been exposed to. Self-knowledge as I see it, is seeing those structures in myself, as they are, without the usual normative labeling. Yes?
Understood in that way, without condemnation of any kind, they can then be 'negated' rather than substituted for or suppressed.

This may be all wrong of course

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #22
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
No desperation. K was using the word "follow" exactly the way I was. For some reason, you made it into being a "follower."

OK. Thanks for clearing that up. Something else just struck me when I re-read your statement above with the discussion of "following" in it.

Isn't it something that K often pointed out that as long as there is an "I", a center, then there will be greed and all the rest of the problems thinking has invented?

What I am trying to suggest is what some people may be saying is that greed is part of humanity and there is nothing we can do about it as long as we maintain an illusion of an identity separate from the rest of humanity.

As long as there is a center, a separation from the rest of humanity, there will be greed. The center has been conditioned to want to find security, to accumulate "things" both psychologically and physically. Which is a form of greed isn't it?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 10 Jan 2019.

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #23
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
If you've named the sensation "greed" or charity, the judgement has already been made, hasn't it? 'Greed' is 'bad', 'charity' is 'good'. That is how we've been 'conditioned' to look at ourselves....etc.

Thanks Dan for reminding us of these very important realizations. They are as timely as they are valid.

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #24
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1300 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Is that what you are doing? Was that what you were doing when you tried to pin superstition and lack of gratitude on Krishnamurti?

Gee,jack is fixated on that old discussion. Step out of it fellow .

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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 #25
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1432 posts in this forum Offline

I think that we can talk about the phenomenon that we call 'greed'. We can see how it affects the world. We can abstract it as something separate, a quality. Then we have to name it to talk about it with others or even to think about in ourself. But it is when there is an awareness of it actually taking place in ourself, that the 'naming' is inappropriate and misplaced. I think that is because every sensation in us in new. But being 'recognized' by the self from memory, it is given a name and associated with the past. Then the self deals with it according to one's conditioning . Which is an 'escape'. K.'s suggestion is to "stay" with the sensation whatever it is without the conditioned process of 'naming' it. There is 'energy' there that is dissipated in the movement by thought/self to act upon the 'what is' rather than let it "flower" without judgement or condemnation....

K.:" Can you look at it without the mind being occupied with it? Occupation implies the effort to resolve that compulsion, does it not? You are condemning it, comparing it with something else, trying to alter it, overcome it. In other words, trying to do something about your compulsion, is occupation, is it not? But can you look at the fact that you have a particular compulsion, an urge, a desire, look at it without comparing, without judging, and hence not set going the whole process of occupation?"

Ojai Talk 1955

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 11 Jan 2019.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #26
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1300 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Say greed, can one look at greed without the condemnation that comes with that word "greed"?

Surely one can look at what one calls greed without the interference of the past or thought. Only when thought realizes it's right place.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #27
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 862 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I am just saying that K talks about transformation which comes out of awareness, and this transformation is very important: I am greedy. I am aware of my greediness. I am aware that I am my greediness, that it is not separate from me. Since it is me, I can do nothing. Full stop. It transforms!

Hello idiot? and all. Yes, what you say makes sense to me. Another example would be inattention in listening. My partner is speaking to me but I am thinking about something else and not paying attention to what my partner says. I become aware of this and my attention immediately shift to the present. I become fully present, attentive and am now in communication with my partner. Is this the transformation which comes out of awareness you are talking about? This transformation does not mean that thought has disappeared in the long term. It means that my attention has transformed a state of being unconnected to my surroundings to being fully connected.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #28
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Another example would be inattention in listening...my attention has transformed a state of being unconnected to my surroundings to being fully connected.

Yes, exactly. Transformation is moment to moment.

Also, I'm saying how easy it is to be accepting of our greed or inattention or whatever it is. Yes, as people have said, the mind condemning itself, judging itself, trying to improve itself, can be just another indulgence in thought and a distraction from what is. But, we can be so passive and accepting of the conflict we are causing in ourselves and with others that there is no full awareness and no transformation.

K talks about putting your "house in order." Do we do it? Or do we say, yes, yes, one day I won't be so greedy or inattentive or whatever. One day I'll examine these things. One day never comes and the self continues to collide with reality, spreading mischief.

Most of us don't feel an "urgency for change." Most of us are aware of "the present crisis" only out there in the world, but not in ourselves. Until there really is "dissatisfaction with everything" then we remain a self at odds with what is, rather than awareness and transformation.

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day that Jack Pine cited above:
without freedom there is no clarity; without freedom you can't love; without freedom you can't find truth; without freedom you can't go beyond the limitation of the mind. You must demand it with all your being.

Freedom is from the known. K doesn't say go at this half-heartedly. He says, "with all your being." If you are only casually interested, you're going to learn some nice things K said and go on being a self in conflict. Only if you bring all your being to right now, which doesn't mean clenching up your body or something silly, but means total attention, can moment to moment transformation happen.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 11 Jan 2019.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #29
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1300 posts in this forum Offline

The requirement for transformation is living a healthy life ,not drinking ,not smoking ,not eating the wrong food, doing the right kind of exercise and so on . How many of us are willing to do that? I say none. I think it is more important to pay attention to the mechanism of habits as Krishnamurti has gone into. Habits are much more powerful than the desire to transform. A heroin addict is dominated by his habit, he can't change while he uses the heroin as an escape.

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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 #30
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1300 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti said everything that we do is escape from ourselves. One has to find out why one escapes at all. And what is it that one is escaping from. We can discuss beautiful ideas like transformation . The direct meaning of the word transform is trans-form, change form. Krishnamurti has his own vocabulary.

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