Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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A slice of life/death in Southern California

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Fri, 09 Nov 2018 #1
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

The Ojai Valley, in Southern California, is unique in some ways. It used to be a beautiful, lush valley but due to climate change we haven't been getting nearly the rains we used to. This area has been a desert, by definition, for centuries but due to water management it was gradually turned into a garden.

Last year the Ojai and surrounding areas suffered a horrendous fire that burned around the rims, north and south, of this valley filled with it's orange and avocado orchards. The valley was lucky in that the fire didn't penetrate into the valley itself.

Now again this year the fires are starting. Not in the Ojai but farther south and east and also way north. And then there was the recent massacre of 12 college students a couple of days ago in a bar just a short drive away by a sociopath for no apparent reason. This ex-Marine Corps member also shot and killed himself. Why?

Is this our future? Not just here but throughout the world. The accelerating collapse of natural systems and random acts of mass murder by psychopaths? How does one live in this world? Is it just a matter of time before most people start carrying guns for self defense? It could happen and sooner than anyone expects.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 09 Nov 2018.

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Fri, 09 Nov 2018 #2
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Jack - yes humanity/society is collapsing rapidly.

The understanding of what is at the root of this collapse is clearly covered completely in the teaching of K - it is stated in all that K said.

And on this forum, still the man K himself is examined and judged, and the deep truth of what he pointed out is overlooked - completely, while we puzzle about 'what he meant by this' and 'what he meant by that', and 'was he superstitious?', and 'how can I find what I want to believe in what he is saying?'

But the teaching is about the unpalatable TRUTH - not about what 'I' (the stupid deluded 'self') desire to believe.

So unless the message of the teaching can be corrupted to make us humans feel good about our-'selves', K is judged to be irrelevant and a 'failure' - or just plain wrong!

Humanity itself is the failure - and the human tragedy is that K's teaching - the truth of which has never been more necessary to humanity than in this very moment - is so totally misunderstood.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Fri, 09 Nov 2018.

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Sat, 10 Nov 2018 #3
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
yes humanity/society is collapsing rapidly.

I suppose you are not part of humanity/society! You are the observer looking at humanity collapsing. Subtle way to escape from one's responsibility on earth.

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Sat, 10 Nov 2018 #4
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Humanity itself is the failure - and the human tragedy is that K's teaching - the truth of which has never been more necessary to humanity than in this very moment - is so totally misunderstood.

Hello Patricia. The implication here is that you understand the teachings and others don't. Is this what you are actually saying? Nobody has a monopoly on the truth of K's teachings. I'm sure most of us who come here have some understanding of the teachings. Perhaps we understand different parts. We hopefully apply the teachings to our day-to-day lives, to some extent at least. All we can do here is share our understanding of K's teachings in a civilised and respectful manner and hopefully deepen our understanding.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
And on this forum, still the man K himself is examined and judged, and the deep truth of what he pointed out is overlooked - completely, while we puzzle about 'what he meant by this' and 'what he meant by that', and 'was he superstitious?', and 'how can I find what I want to believe in what he is saying?'

I can only speak for myself about this. I posted a 45 minute audio tape of Krishnamurti talking to Alain Naudé on Masters and hierarchy. I found this dialogue fascinating. I think it is completely appropriate to discuss and explore what K said in this dialogue on a Krishnamurti forum and the question "what he meant by this" is part of exploring together. I find it difficult to understand why people have a problem with that.

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Sat, 10 Nov 2018 #5
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Now again this year the fires are starting. Not in the Ojai but farther south and east and also way north. And then there was the recent massacre of 12 college students a couple of days ago in a bar just a short drive away by a sociopath for no apparent reason. This ex-Marine Corps member also shot and killed himself. Why?

Crazy things are indeed happening all around and sometimes close to us. Were you near the scene of the latest fire Jack? Stay safe brother!

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Sat, 10 Nov 2018 #6
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
I suppose you are not part of humanity/society! You are the observer looking at humanity collapsing. Subtle way to escape from one's responsibility on earth.

Sean Hen wrote:
The implication here is that you understand the teachings and others don't.

There is only one human brain on the planet. It is in your head, as in the head of this writer.

Subjectivity will not allow this to be seen.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sat, 10 Nov 2018.

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Sat, 10 Nov 2018 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Is this our future? Not just here but throughout the world.

Hi Jack,

First of all: let as few people as possible leave their lives there.

At the same time asking is the world really in accelerating collapse ?

Here in Belgium there was war 100 year ago, complete cities destroyed, 20 miljoen people died en tomorrow 11/11 at 11 hour they celebrate the surrender of Germany from the "Great War" as they call it here. Never again was the slogan then and what is really fundamental changed ??

Still seeking provocation, still I'm right and you are wrong !!!

So still a lot of work to do, on all our selves...... it seems.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
There is only one human brain on the planet.
It is in your head, as in the head of this writer.

Subjectivity will not allow this to be seen.

Yes, do not let matter stand in the way of what is possible.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sat, 10 Nov 2018 #8
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

The fire spreads at 80 football fields per minute in California. People don't get enough time to escape the fire with their pets and important things. These things happen all around the world ,the floodings ,the earthquakes, tsunami and so on. What is one to do? Stay home and not to travel and get bored?

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Sat, 10 Nov 2018 #9
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1263 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
There is only one human brain on the planet. It is in your head, as in the head of this writer.

Each one of us have a Brain but it doesn't mean they are one and the same. There are Good and healthy Brains . There are diseased and distorted Brains.

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Sat, 10 Nov 2018 #10
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
Each one of us have a Brain but it doesn't mean they are one and the same. There are Good and healthy Brains . There are diseased and distorted Brains.

No - there is only one human brain. It contains the whole of human consciousness.

What do you think K meant when he stated: 'You are the world'?

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Sat, 10 Nov 2018 #11
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D - your #12 is very amusing.

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Sun, 11 Nov 2018 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
And on this forum, still the man K himself is examined and judged, and the deep truth of what he pointed out is overlooked - completely, while we puzzle about 'what he meant by this' and 'what he meant by that', and 'was he superstitious?', and 'how can I find what I want to believe in what he is saying?'

Yes, it's a lot more entertaining then pondering our lives, our common conditioning ie our common brain that has been conditioned over countless ages as K so often pointed out. We are not "individuals" which means undivided. Our thinking that is limited, fragmented, divided is what we are.

Well spoken, by the way. I am referring to your above paragraph and the rest of your post.

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Sun, 11 Nov 2018 #13
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Watch out for yourself, because nobody else will.

Rule #1 - Never go where large groups of people congregate. The country is full of sick people.

Ken, I have followed the above advice for the past 50 years, more or less. I was drafted as a young man into the US Army and put in Vietnam were I spent 11 months and 26 days in the Mekong Delta as a "grunt", a combat infantryman. I despised being part of that criminal attack on the Vietnamese which eventually killed 1.5 million of them.

I greatly admire the Vietnamese. They are intelligent, have a great sense of humor and still welcome us, US citizens who visit, with warmth and open arms. I don't know of any other group of people who live what the Buddha taught more than these wonderful people.

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Sun, 11 Nov 2018 #14
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Hello Patricia. The implication here is that you understand the teachings and others don't. Is this what you are actually saying?

Sean Hen wrote:
Hello Patricia. The implication here is that you understand the teachings and others don't. Is this what you are actually saying?

Sean, I don't think Patricia was saying this at all nor do I think she was referring to your post of the audio of K and Alan N. If only Alan would have shut up and not interrupted K so often it would have been a really good thing to listen to. Thanks for posting that.

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Sun, 11 Nov 2018 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Were you near the scene of the latest fire Jack? Stay safe brother!

We are about 40 miles away. We lost our internet connection yesterday due to the fire and didn't get it back until a few minutes ago. Last year, as I mentioned, we suffered the Thomas Fire which was the second largest fire in California history. Also the shooting of 12 young people in a bar was 40 miles away. Senseless murder. And thank you my wife and I will be safe.

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Sun, 11 Nov 2018 #16
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Severe & shocking incident of death of huge number of people happened in here few weeks ago , which had shaken the country . In one of the worst train accidents of its kind , some fifty odd people were massacred / mowed down by a fast running train when they were standing on rail tracks and in ' awe ' watching nothing great but some fire cracker show on one of the festival days. What a sheer shameful, pitiable and the extremely sorrowful incident for the local administration and for the country !

Well the incident calls for lot of questions as to sheer negligence of the people for their lives ? extreme callous nature of both the railways and the local admin as mentioned already ... one just cannot help but wonder if no one has any control over death , in the sense the time of birth and death are pre destined ... Is some ones such miserable fate that made this incident happen ? As mentioned by Jack the death and fate of one and half million people of Vietnam by American soldiers , also millions who die in various wars and otherwise either by accidents, diseases or of old age , So on and so forth .... Life and death happens all the time in the Universe ... On the other hand there are many who take every precaution but simply die away in very fluke accidents and incidents ?

In other words no one knows when death comes knocking at ones door and when one has to leave everything behind and go away .... and the question that comes to mind, what kind of life one is living / leading ... When some one asked K as to how one should lead ones life in such a scenario his answer was ' live life in kindness, goodness and love ' .... also he says ' live as though you are going to die next day ' .... ( sorry Jack could not quote citation , I'm very poor at it , but remember reading this conversation in one of the ' commentaries of living ' series .

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Sun, 11 Nov 2018 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
( sorry Jack could not quote citation , I'm very poor at it , but remember reading this conversation in one of the ' commentaries of living ' series .

Don't worry about the citation Pavani. One can't remember where every quote came from.

I think I read about the that unfortunate incident with the train and so many people killed you wrote about. How horrible. And yes live life like it's your last day. But most of us are so wrapped up in our pasts and it's projection into the future, future entertainment and so on, that most of us aren't really living at all. We waste our lives habitually doing meaningless things over and over again because we get some sort of feeling of security out of it. Which is, itself, just an illusion.

It's a cool but sunny Sunday morning here in the Ojai and time for my walk into the mountains still scarred from last year's fire. But one can see the orderly lines of blooming and fruit bearing orange and avocado trees in the orchards in and around the valley.

I wish everyone a pleasant day where they use it to just let go of everything for awhile and live and enjoy your lives with no worries.

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Sun, 11 Nov 2018 #18
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I wish everyone a pleasant day where they use it to just let go of everything for awhile and live and enjoy your lives with no worries.

Thanks Jack, the same for you

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 12 Nov 2018 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
What do you think K meant when he stated: 'You are the world'?

K has carefully explained this many times as I am sure you know Patricia. And I am sure you know why he said it and I know you weren't asking me to answer this question. I would like to answer this if you don't mind.

Our brains are not our brains. There is one human brain and it is very, very old. This brain of humanity has been formed over millennia. Conditioned by experience and knowledge to see and react to the world in a particular way. The cells in the brain, the very chemistry has been formed over time from, at least, the first primates.

The institutions; nationalism, organized religion, the military, war organized greed (capitalism and other economic systems) and so on are things invented by human thought. Thought has invented these things and the rest of what the world is and for the most part we accept the world the way it is without question. We are not separate from these things that thought has invented. We, I, you are all inventions of thought. We actually don't exist as an individual, as a separate psychological human being. We are all conditioned in the same way deep down. There are cultural differences but those are insignificant. Whether we call ourselves Christian, hindu, jews, muslim it's still all belief, blind acceptance in something to give us comfort.

We are the world and the world is us.

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Mon, 12 Nov 2018 #20
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
We are the world and the world is us.

Very well stated above Jack.

Also important is that, as humans, we all feel the same pain, the same anxiety, the same anger, etc. and above all: the same fear.

And we all share responsibility for the disorder of humanity.

Surely in seeing this, does it not bring us together (in a world that is ever more rapidly blowing apart through subjectivity and division) to seriously end the human disorder? In the only manner possible - which is total understanding of it?

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Mon, 12 Nov 2018.

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Mon, 12 Nov 2018 #21
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Also important is that, as humans, we all feel the same pain, the same anxiety, the same anger, etc. and above all: the same fear.

Yes, thanks for pointing this out.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
And we all share responsibility for the disorder of humanity.

Yes we do. At the same time the forces of greed have never been stronger in the modern era. Look at the sub-human being who "leads" this country, USA, and the destruction it is leading to.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Surely in seeing this, does it not bring us together (in a world that is ever more rapidly blowing apart through subjectivity and division) to seriously end the human disorder? In the only manner possible - which is total understanding of it?

Yes, but how many see this and are willing to act upon it. The so-called "poverty" class is growing exponentially even as the wealth of a few grows to the extreme. I think it's something like three or four people in the US have as much wealth and the bottom 50% of us.

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Mon, 12 Nov 2018 #22
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Yes, but how many see this and are willing to act upon it.

There is no choice but to act Jack. K said the house was burning all those years ago, and things have, as you say, gotten so much worse in recent time.

We humans have reached the point where a simple truth cannot even be agreed upon. Subjectivity rules - and 'truth is anything I want it to be'. Look at Trump - the epitome of human disorder - up there ruling the world! Talk about getting the leaders we deserve.....

And for someone standing all alone and seeing clearly the disorder that WE ARE - the only place to act is very close - and silently. And if there is someone to share with - share quietly and gently. K said (then) that it only takes a few people..... But regardless, there is no choice - and there is freedom in that. There is no point in looking around and waiting for others to act alongside us - that is a luxury humanity can no longer afford. And K didn't wait for anyone else.

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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 #23
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
There is no point in looking around and waiting for others to act alongside us - that is a luxury humanity can no longer afford. And K didn't wait for anyone else.

And one died on the front of the great war neither.

Dulce et Decorum Est Launch Audio in a New Window

BY WILFRED OWEN

.

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Notes:

Latin phrase is from the Roman poet Horace:
“It is sweet and fitting to die for one’s country.”

Source: Poems (Viking Press, 1921)

P.S.: And yes the subtlety and the impudence is increasing,
it seems to be normal and accepted.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 13 Nov 2018.

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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 #24
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you Wim for posting Wilfred Owen's shocking poem about the horrors of war.

In this country of Oz, we glorify more every year the memory of war. It seems to be a part of an overall desensitisation. After all the pain and tragedy over all the years of fighting each other over WHAT? - still we cannot say: NO - NEVER AGAIN!

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Tue, 13 Nov 2018.

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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 #25
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
In this country of Oz, we glorify more every year the memory of war. It seems to be a part of an overall desensitisation. After all the pain and tragedy over all the years of fighting each other over WHAT? - still we cannot say: NO - NEVER AGAIN!

Sadly it stays by saying instead of doing.

This weekend was a horror and brought me back to remembering the shock some 55 year ago.

I grew up with the omnipresent idea: "Germans are evil". both at school and in newspapers and at home. My father had been arrested in the second WW to work in the factories in Germany, but decided to jump off the train on the way, many of whom died, but he did not, and that is why I am exist.!

When on my 16th I undertook on my own a bicycle tour through Belgium to Luxembourg through youth hostels, I met peers from all over Europe for the first time and therefore also from Germany.

in spontaneous conversations around campfires we talked about the curent situation and the source of diversity within Europe, which in the past had caused a lot of misery. Then I understood for the first time that historiography was a fabricated lie of the victors. The history that the cause of the First World War was clearly not only due to the Germans, but to all European participants and the settlement afterwards is the cause of the Second World War and even NOW this chain of events is going on between israel and palistines.

before those wars events took place like is going on nowadays, distrust between states, searching to provoke an incident and beeing ready to battle the strongest society at that time -Germany - together.

History and hysteria must have the same source, it seems.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Tue, 13 Nov 2018 #26
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

War is humanity attacking itself Wim. And when human imbalance blindly reaches a critical point (as it is now)......

The fact is that the victors write history, so there can be no true discovery in looking at history. As K said: watch yourself. And also: there are no sides in war.

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Wed, 14 Nov 2018 #27
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
War is humanity attacking itself Wim. And when human imbalance blindly reaches a critical point (as it is now)......

Yes, one idea against another idea which are taken for a fact and feeded by knowingly lying to influence the mass for their own purpose.

How clear the process of thought can be exposed !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 14 Nov 2018 #28
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1924 posts in this forum Offline

It is important to understand subjectivity - to apprehend its constant rising in oneself. The truth can never manifest when subjectivity is acting. (As an example, the internet allows us all to exist in personal echo-chambers where our delusions are constantly re-enforced, giving the self great 'security' - and truth is out the window!)

So - question everything. Doubt everything. Negate everything! There is no safe place. The 'self' has become a sacred space - humanity has it all wrong.

The teaching of K can never be understood if subjectivity is acting.

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Wed, 14 Nov 2018 #29
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-chec...

Interesting article, Ken, and in line with what I was saying about oneness on the other thread, with regard to the meaning of "You are the world." Oneness can be problematic. Perhaps K goes into this when he discusses "identification." When you identify with a country, a religion, a race, or whatever, it is limiting and separative. Even if you identify with the whole???

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, Questions and Answers On Awareness
It is what you actually do when you are interested in something, when you are interested in watching your child, your wife, your plants, the trees, the birds. You observe without condemnation, without identification; therefore in that observation there is complete communion; the observer and the observed are completely in communion. This actually takes place when you are deeply, profoundly interested in something.

-

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, Questions and Answers On Surrender to What Is
The real can only be understood by understanding what is. It cannot be understood if there is any condemnation or identification. The mind that is always condemning or identifying cannot understand; it can only understand that within which it is caught.

-

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, On Superficiality
Surely this whole process of dependence is an evasion of myself; this identification with the greater is the denial of what I am. But I cannot deny what I am; I must understand what I am and not try to identify myself with the universe, with God, with a particular political party or what you will. All this leads to shallow thinking and from shallow thinking there is activity which is everlastingly mischievous, whether on a worldwide scale, or on the individual scale.

On the other hand, K does say, "The outside is the inside" and "You are the world and the world is you" and "The observer is the observed," all of which may point to dissolving the self into totality, outside of time.

While Buddhists or Hindus or others who have experienced "oneness" or "enlightenment" might say that K is talking about the same thing that they are, I don't think that K would have acknowledged them as having experienced what he is talking about. Certainly he never did while he was alive.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 14 Nov 2018.

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Wed, 14 Nov 2018 #30
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
John Horgan on "Oneness"

Ken, the start of it seems wrong because they start with a definition.

"They define oneness, among other ways,
as the idea that “beneath surface appearances, everything is one,” and “the separation among individual things is an illusion.” 

How can one define something which is ultimate unknown.

Sure we can fantasize about this idea and that is all it is,
we can fantasize about peace but that's not the case !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 14 Nov 2018.

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