Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The surprising lack of gratitude


Displaying posts 91 - 120 of 179 in total
Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #91
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
After the noticing part of gratitude comes the giving value part. If I give value based on what I get, based on my own ideas and conditioning, then the gratitude is a masquerade and not virtuous. It is just a cover over self-centeredness.

Nothing special about the above quote I just picked something to represent the thread. I see you decided to stick with over intellectualizing the trivial instead of focusing on the relevant. Well, maybe someday you'll be interested in Krishnamurti and looking into life and his discoveries.

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Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #92
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

Really funny, Ken. Mind you, I'm NOT encouraging you! What happened to the Krishnamurti Mind Meld?

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Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #93
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnaji... Ken's brain is missing.:-)

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Mon, 22 Oct 2018 #94
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Ken donated his brain. Would it have killed K to say the simple words, "Thank you?"

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Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #95
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

"Thank you very much for the picture":)

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Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #96
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
Appreciation and gratitude are not the same.

According to the dictionary and thesaurus they are.

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Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #97
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D posted:
Happy Autumn!, photoshopped picture

Say, that's not a Chucky doll under the tree, is it? And what is on the ground to the right? Kleenex?

Anyway, Happy Autumn to you, too. And also, Gorsh!

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Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #98
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

appreciate
Also found in: Thesaurus, Legal, Financial.
ap·pre·ci·ate (?-pr??sh?-?t?)
v. ap·pre·ci·at·ed, ap·pre·ci·at·ing, ap·pre·ci·ates
v.tr.
1. To recognize the quality, significance, or magnitude of: appreciated their freedom.
2. To be fully aware of or sensitive to; realize: I appreciate your problems.
3. To be thankful or show gratitude for: I really appreciate your help.
4. To admire greatly; value.
5. To raise in value or price, especially over time.
v.intr.
To increase in value or price, especially over time.

[Late Latin appreti?re, appreti?t-, to appraise; see appraise.]

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Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #99
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Notice that the root meaning is to apprais.

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Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #100
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
appreciate

To be thankful or show gratitude for: I really appreciate your help.

Like I said.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 24 Oct 2018.

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Tue, 23 Oct 2018 #101
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
2. To be fully aware of or sensitive to; realize: I appreciate your problems.

So K appreciated our problems.

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Wed, 24 Oct 2018 #102
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Krishnamurti: There are very few good people, in the real sense of the word - people who are not seeking something, who are not after something. Those who are seeking something or are after something are exploiters and therefore it is very difficult for anyone to find a companion to love.

That is a tragedy in itself.

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Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #103
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Myself Only wrote:
Appreciation and gratitude are not the same.

According to the dictionary and thesaurus they are.

There has been a lot of energy spent on debating a single word, "gratitude", and to what end? K apparently didn't use the word for whatever reasons. Idiot?, why are you surprised that K didn't use a particular word that you thought he should use?

Maybe K didn't think like you. Maybe K saw things that you haven't. Are you or any of us really in a position to judge K for not thinking like we do? Isn't it more important to see what K is pointing out than to be "surprised" that he doesn't react as you think he should? Do you think K was concerned with conforming to what others thought he should be? Isn't that a contradiction to what he was pointing about not being trapped by our conditioning, by other's opinions and so on? Isn't it more important to find out who we are and how we got this way than to judge others for what they do or don't do?

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Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #104
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Here are some things K did NOT say:

Only discuss matters that I discussed. Never investigate for yourself issues that come up that I didn't talk about. Just imitate me and never deviate from that.

Always defend what I said and personally attack those who have a different understanding of what I said. Remember that your understanding of what I said is right and make it your duty to disparage in any way possible those who think otherwise.

Use flattery and other techniques to gather allies in attacks against anyone who you perceive in any way goes against K orthodoxy.

If anyone talks about my personal life in a positive way, then reinforce those statements. But if anyone talks about my life in a way that could possibly be understood as being negative, you must attack such statements as gossip. At all costs you must defend your image of me and you must treat me like an authority.

No, K didn't say any of that.

He did discuss gratitude on rare occasions as evidenced by post #51.

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Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #105
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

K said I am not your authority. (He practically gave hints to leave me alone.) But people went to him and asked stupid questions from him. I was watching one of his videos , he said I don't want to talk , I have talked for sixty years.
K had 10 acres of land in Netherland and some castles . He didn't want them and returned them back. He was not materialistic as we are in the west so nothing to be thankful for . He was discontent with everything that thought created psychologically. But us on the contrary we are greedy for more and more materials in the US and any body or or any system that help us to achieve that we are thankful . Thanks giving is coming soon . A beautiful bird is killed for our appetite and we are thankful for that! We should be shamed of killing a beautiful bird. But we love to kill whether it is an animal or people or someone's thinking.

This post was last updated by One Self Sat, 27 Oct 2018.

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Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #106
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
No, K didn't say any of that.

Neither did I so why bring it up? What I did say, and you apparently missed it, is that we all have been conditioned to see things in the way that we do. But why do you think K should be held to your conditioned standards of thinking instead of trying to understand why "gratitude" may be something entirely different to K?

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Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #107
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1228 posts in this forum Offline

To be thankful seems to imply some personhood to which it is directed. It may be directed to the invented person, god. There is in this thanking of individuals the reinforcement of identification in both directions, giver and receiver.

In this person, there is an awareness at times of how incredibly fortunate his situation is. Sometimes there is an awareness of the tremendous misfortune of so many others. One could cry.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Sat, 27 Oct 2018.

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Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #108
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
To be thankful seems to imply some personhood to which it is directed. It may be directed to the invented person, god. There is in this thanking of individuals the reinforcement of identification in both directions, giver and receiver.

Peter, I see it as you do. Your explanation is short and concise. Who is it, exactly, who is grateful? One is grateful if one is given something but if there is no "one", no entity...?

Superstition requires a center, an entity also. Being superstitious implies that one has beliefs, images and so on. Did K have beliefs, invent images, conditioned? As I have written before if K was all of these things then every thing he said was just theory. I don't believe what he pointed out was theory for him. It seems clear that he lived what he spoke about.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 27 Oct 2018.

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Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #109
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:

To be thankful seems to imply some personhood to which it is directed. It may be directed to the invented person, god. There is in this thanking of individuals the reinforcement of identification in both directions, giver and receiver.

Jack: Peter, I see it as you do. Your explanation is short and concise. Who is it, exactly, who is grateful? One is grateful if one is given something but if there is no "one", no entity...?

I would tend to agree as well. Christians are taught to say grace...give thanks to God....at mealtime. Now who are they giving thanks too, but an image? Does being thankful come naturally or do we have to be taught to give thanks. The mother gives the child a new toy and the child happily grabs it and goes off to play. The mother feels hurt and says to herself, ‘my child didn’t even say thank you’...’how ungrateful’. This is based upon conditioning isn’t it? If I give out of the goodness of my heart, do I need a ‘thank-you’? Many of us give anonymously to help the poor. That kind of giving doesn’t need a thanks....the giving is it’s own reward. I know some feel that K should have expressed gratitude for the generous support he received for his work....for the teachings. Well, in his mind, I’m sure he regarded the donations as a gift to support the teachings only. So who would give thanks...the teachings?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 27 Oct 2018.

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Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #110
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

K was a true revolutionary ,he was not an ordinary Joe like each one of us. So we can't even imagine who he was. (But we can talk about the image that each one of us has made out of Krishnamurti based on the books written about him which he didn't even read them.). So talking about Krishnamurti positively or negatively has no value. It is an escape from the truth of what he said. Most of us have an authority-based mind. So there is a tendency to make Krishnamurti into an authority as we see it happening here every day.

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Sat, 27 Oct 2018 #111
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
K said I am not your authority. (He practically gave hints to leave me alone.) But people went to him and asked stupid questions from him. I was watching one of his videos , he said I don't want to talk , I have talked for sixty years.
K had 10 acres of land in Netherland and some castles . He didn't want them and returned them back. He was not materialistic as we are in the west so nothing to be thankful for . He was discontent with everything that thought created psychologically.

Myself Wrote wrote:
K was a true revolutionary ,he was not an ordinary Joe like each one of us. So we can't even imagine who he was. (But we can talk about the image that each one of us has made out of Krishnamurti based on the books written about him which he didn't even read them.). So talking about Krishnamurti positively or negatively has no value. It is an escape from the truth of what he said.

It have to be one thing or the other. One cannot speak from both sides of the mouth at the same time . Just hope you see your contradiction , if I may pointed out.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 27 Oct 2018.

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Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #112
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
It have to be one thing or the other. One cannot speak from both sides of the mouth at the same time . Just hope you see your contradiction , if I may pointed out.

It could be that your interpretation is contradictory. Did k wanted to be an authority figure? No because he said so. Was k a true revolutionary? Obviously yes because of the teachings. Do you see any false statement there if you do I would be glad to correct it for you.
It is odd that people who claim that they understand the teachings always make personal comments. If you understand Krishnamurti you learn something from him. He never ever attacked people who he had dialogue with. Only in USA people are so aggressive that they attack the writers, just like what their president does. K surely wasted his time having talks in ojai.

This post was last updated by One Self Sun, 28 Oct 2018.

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Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #113
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

You say that talking positively or negatively about Krishnamurti has no value. That it is an escape from the truth of what he said. So the teaching is what is important, not who or what he was. Who or what he was can be interesting, but it is not the teaching.

When you say that only in USA people are so agressive that they attack the writers, well I am not sure of that. Agressivity is all around us, not only in the US. As for K. You say that he surely has wasted his time, having talks in Ojai. That, for me, is just a personal judgement. For what it's worth, I can assure you that his live was well worth every breath. But enough of worshipping K. , or anyone. The teaching, for a better word, as you said, is what have value. Not any biography.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sun, 28 Oct 2018.

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Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #114
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

I think that one thing that we all can learn from the teachings is never be personal and psychological. Trump is a good example of being personal and psychological. Most people love it in the USA. Because their minds are based on authority and submission, not understanding and love.

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Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #115
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
There is a simple explanation for the Trump phenomenon....he can't be shamed.

Trump does not feel shame because he is a psychopath. To feel shame is to have empathy and an emotional understanding that are not available to him. Nevertheless, he is the personification of shame. That is, his every action is shameful.

What is inexplicable is the implacable support he has from a portion of the electorate who are deplorable, which simply means worthy of strong disapproval. Their support of Trump was, is, and always will be deplorable. They are responsible for the destruction of our country. If anyone doesn't vote against this, they deserve to be asked by future generations, "So what did you do in those times?"

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 28 Oct 2018.

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Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #116
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
To be thankful seems to imply some personhood to which it is directed.

While it is true that a lot of gratitude is directed to someone or to God, there can also be just a feeling of gratitude. It can be directed nowhere or everywhere. It is just a grateful feeling for everything, everyone.

On a less profound note, sometimes gratitude is simply relief: "I had such a bad headache and now I'm just grateful it is gone." Such expression of relief may not be to anyone or to God.

I've been trying to emphasize the tremendous variety of gratitude. It is quite complex and includes aspects of self-centeredness and freedom from self-centeredness.

The questioner in post #51 asks K about the right kind of gratitude. K's answer implies that right gratitude cannot be separated from real love. No doubt he could have gone further into wrong gratitude, meaning thankfulness for what "I" get, but that wasn't what he was asked.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 28 Oct 2018.

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Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #117
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
I think that one thing that we all can learn from the teachings is never be personal and psychological. Trump is a good example of being personal and psychological. Most people love it in the USA. Because their minds are based on authority and submission, not understanding and love.

Again, do we walk the talk ? Aren't we saying one thing and doing the opposite ? Which is hypocrisy. Don't take it personaly. Let's face the fact. We say one thing, and we do the opposite . Isn't it a fact that concerns us all ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sun, 28 Oct 2018.

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Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #118
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Again, do we walk the talk ? Aren't we saying one thing and doing the opposite ? Which is hypocrisy. Don't take it personally. Let's face the fact. We say one thing, and we do the opposite . Isn't it a fact that concerns us all ?

Do you mean that if someone accused you of something that you are not you should be silent? Every word has another word as a reaction. If you call me an "idiot"then there is an immediate reaction to that word which is another word, depending on the person's background. One time in k's talk a man said to him " you are crazy" . K instead of reacting emotionally to that word he said : Do you know what that word crazy mean? It means mentally imbalance. So here k had no reaction to that word crazy . We are not as intelligent and aware as k was so if you call me an "idiot" I don't know the root meaning of the word so I do the easier thing and call you something like you are a "freak ". I think it is all about how knowledgeable we are about the root meaning of the words.

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Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #119
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
While it is true that a lot of gratitude is directed to someone or to God, there can also be just a feeling of gratitude. It can be directed nowhere or everywhere. It is just a grateful feeling for everything, everyone.

I think you are referring to contentment. Contentment is the outcome of understanding.

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Sun, 28 Oct 2018 #120
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
...if you call me an "idiot" I don't know the root meaning of the word...

It means mentally handicapped. In some of us, thinking isn't happening the way it is in others.

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