Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The surprising lack of gratitude


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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #61
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

K also told me if somebody tried to convince you of anything don't be convinced.

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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #62
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
So K had a servant and a cook !! This guy was one of the cooks that made food at the gatherings held at the foundation. He was not K's personal cook.

Now I know for sure you have never been to a gathering at Ojai. Michael Krohnen, you idiot, is known to everyone in the KFA and they know exactly who he is. He is exactly who I said he is. There was no "food at the gatherings". There were no "cooks", plural, doing anything there.

You know I don't accuse people of this until I am absolutely sure. But you, buddy, are a liar. Most likely you weren't even born when K was alive. Too many things about you indicate that you are younger. Your use of the word "blog", for instance, instead of "forum". Guys my age don't use that word blog much because it is relatively new. We are more comfortable with the word forum. Also, you posted too many times denigrating "old" people and "old" minds and brains. You were essentially bragging about being young.

When you lie you need to make sure your back story holds up. You have none. Now everyone who has been to one of those gatherings in "Ojai" knows you're lying.

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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #63
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
When you lie you need to make sure your back story holds up.

So the robot has previous experience in deception and image making which only makes his behavior more confusing. Jack you are a bitter old man with no sense of humor and you know it..

This post was last updated by One Self Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #64
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

The following book listing is from Amazon.com

The Kitchen Chronicles: 1001 Lunches with J. Krishnamurti Paperback – June 15, 1996

by Michael Krohnen (Author)

4.1 out of 5 stars
15 customer reviews

Paperback
from $2.38

23 Used from $2.38

6 New from $44.49

1 Collectible from $38.95

The Kitchen Chronicles is a moving and surprisingly humorous memoir by the cook to one of the Centuries great figures, Indian-born philosopher J. Krishnamurti. In a modern quest for truth the author chronicles the daily life in Krishnamurti's kitchen and at his table. This insightful, fast-paced memoir reveals the private life of Krishnamurti, his splendid sense of humor, his affectionate friendships, and probing intelligence. Photographs place Krishnamurti in his California home with friends and associates.

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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #65
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
So the robot has previous experience in deception and image making which only makes his behavior more confusing. Jack you are a bitter old man and you know it..

No I don't lie. When you get to be my age you don't care enough about what others think to lie. I've just proved you are a liar and a fraud and you know it. As if it weren't obvious for quite awhile. And you just made another ageist remark. No wonder we have people like Trump in office with people like you voting.

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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #66
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Do you see that you have to have an image of someone which is based on your experiences with that person before you can feel gratitude for what you think that person has done for you? K had no images, no recorded history of his experiences with a person therefore there can be no gratitude.

Yes. Gratitude is a response to a past action. It is treating what transpired ,whatever it is,very personally.

K 's responses seem to me from the love & sensitivity he talked about.And intelligence.

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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #67
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

I found over five false statements from jack the humorless robot in the above paragraph.:-) And now he advocates a book from a cook for 39$. I met the guy in ojai . With one glance you can tell that the cook never understood K or did what he told his audience to do, he has a huge tommy.:-)

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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #68
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

So if somebody invited you to his house and gave you well prepared food you should not say thank you for your effort. We should say it was your duty to feed me.:-) that shows good manner!

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #69
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
I found over five false statements from jack the humorless robot in the above paragraph

Really? What were they? You're just flailing you arms and not saying anything. You have been caught lying and it's been proven right on this forum.

Myself Only wrote:
And now he advocates a book from a cook for 39$. I met the guy in ojai . With one glance you can tell that the cook never understood K or did what he told his audience to do, he has a huge tommy.:-)

Look at the above quote. It was most likely written by an Englishman. The dollar sign is after the amount like the English do with the pound sign. And the use of the word "Tommy" is an English expression. Why? You're desperate now Selfish. You're through here. You know that don't you?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 19 Oct 2018.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #70
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

I just remembered another thing about the gathering in the Oak Grove. Not only wasn't food served there but there was a sign at the entrance saying.

NO FOOD OR DRINK OR MUSIC ALLOWED IN THE OAK GROVE

I think anyone who has been to the talks will remember this sign. They didn't want the talks to become like a circus. Another indicator that you have no idea what happened at the talks.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #71
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
NO FOOD OR DRINK OR MUSIC ALLOWED IN THE OAK GROVE.

I was in ojai gathering in 1978 and there was plenty of food in a large tent for all and k sat down with others and ate. There was of coarse a donation box there.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #72
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
I was in ojai gathering in 1978 and there was plenty of food in a large tent for all and k sat down with others and ate. There was of coarse a donation box there.

That is totally untrue and there are probably people on here who were there and can tell you it was untrue. No food, no tent. Is that all you can do now is lie? And K never, ever sat down with the people at the gathering in California. He always left immediately in Mary's Mercedes with the personalized license plate.

Why lie when you know there are people on here who were actually there and know you're lying? You're either drunk or having a mental breakdown.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 19 Oct 2018.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #73
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
I was in ojai gathering in 1978

Really? I'm pretty sure you said before that you were there in 1979? Are you sure it was 1978? And where specifically in Ojai were the talks held in 1978 and 1979?

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #74
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Are you sure it was 1978? And where specifically in Ojai were the talks held in 1978 and 1979?

Gee, we don't have a smart robot. I was also in Brock Wood park in the seventies. They allowed people to camp there but in ojai they didn't allow anybody to camp over night so I camped in a near by campground with a tent and a sleeping bag. It was a great experience .

This post was last updated by One Self Fri, 19 Oct 2018.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #75
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

I would like to thank idiot? for starting this thread. Is this expression of gratitude a simple and honest gesture or is there perhaps something driven by ego behind it? Am I trying to ingratiate myself with idiot? or others here in the hope of gaining some future benefit? Well, I would argue that it's an honest gesture for the following reasons.

Firstly, I have actually enjoyed this thread a lot. It has been very rich in terms of the range and depth of the contributions and there have been extremely interesting quotes from Krishnamurti posted as well. In particular, Huguette's quote from K's early writings brought together and took further many of the points raised about gratitude by contributers here.

Secondly, and more importantly, this thread has led me to reflect on how I myself express gratitude. I say "thanks" a lot. Maybe too much. When I say "thank you" or "gracias" in a restaurant I assumed that it was out of a sense of compassion for the waitress/waiter who has a hard job and has to put up with a lot of rudeness from customers. Am I sometimes guilty of going too far and slipping in a "thank you" when it's really not necessary and appropriate? Perhaps I am.

Idiot? has had to put up with quite a lot of criticiscm for having started this thread but has taken the cyber punches squarely on the chin. I must admit that at the beginning I wasn't at all sure that there much to discuss in K not having talked much about gratitude in the teachings. I think the content of this thread so far proves that there was indeed important points to be explored here.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #76
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
so I camped in a near by campground with a tent and a sleeping bag. It was a great experience .

You didn't answer the simple question: Where were the talks held in Ojai, specifically, in 1978 and 1979? Which ever year you claim to be there. It's an easy question for someone who was there. But you can't answer it because you were not there either year. And by the way it's Brockwood not Brock Wood. And there was never a tent at Ojai for food or anything else.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #77
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think the content of this thread so far proves that there was indeed important points to be explored here.

The original thread was about why K didn't show any gratitude. That has been thoroughly explained especially by the quote Huguette posted. Gratitude is not what it appears to be. It's more of a confusion on the part of the person expressing it.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #78
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
I remember food being available because I wouldn't eat pita bread.

Where did you have the food? Food was never available at the Oak Grove before, during or after a talk there. As I stated before everyone attending the talks was asked not to bring food, music or anything to drink other than water.

There was food offered at an afternoon get together at Arya Vihara, a pot luck of sorts, on Saturday, April 1, (1978) talks. It was for prospective teachers for the Oak Grove school that was then under construction and not finished until late Fall or Winter of 1978/79. I was one of the carpenters on that construction project.

You are right that the Oak Grove was too saturated from heavy rains that winter and Spring to hold the talks. Please do not say where the talks were held that year. I noticed you didn't say there was food in 1978. Myself etc, claims there was a big tent full of people and food. Did you see anything like that in 1978?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 19 Oct 2018.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #79
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Jack you are crazy. Move on.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #80
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

I was there in 1979 and I was in Brock wood park in 1978. But anyway that was 40 years ago . stop being superficial. And ken is right ,they had a big pot . but what is the point of talking about these things. To prove that jack is wrong. But he is always wrong. He thought I am a young English boy :-)

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #81
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Gratitude doesn't exist in isolation, but in relationship to someone or some thing.

That is so true. Gratitude is in relationship. Even in the K quote of post #52 where he talks about loving gratitude for all, there is connectedness.

Ken D wrote:
If I'm grateful for a beautiful sunrise it is directed toward some invisible force or being.

We haven't yet discussed being grateful to God. The question of God in K teaching is somewhat complex but basically there isn't a real God that you can petition or get something from. Yet K did describe an awesome, mysterious "benediction." "The ground" and "the immensity" are other K terms that may or may not be understood as divinity in some sense.

Clearly K had a deep appreciation for nature. As some of us have pointed out, this love of the wilderness can be understood as a kind of gratitude. Gratitude is appreciation, warmness towards something. This kind of feeling for the sunset, for nature, is universal. Even the atheist feels this, a kind of gratitude without knowing who or what to thank.

Ken D wrote:
If I'm starving and somebody feeds me, well, I'm grateful to that person for easing my hunger.

Yes, and I probably don't spend a lot of time analyzing gratitude. I'm just happy someone was kind enough to help me get some food in my stomach.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 19 Oct 2018.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #82
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

In post #52, K is quoted as saying "You are grateful in your love for everyone."

In this quote, K talks about how love for a particular person or group of people is "corruptible," whereas love for all is not. He says, "The question of gratitude is a question of love, and for the person who loves one and not another, there is sorrow."

Let's take person X, who is grateful, in love, for everyone, for totality. Does X love the thugs who recently tortured and murdered the Saudi journalist? Does X love Hitler? Does X love the psychopath who murders?

This is not an easy question. If we draw the line at certain obviously evil people, doesn't the line start to move? We consider cruelty in others that may not be as blatant but notice it is still functioning at a certain level. Soon the line moves to include nearly all of us, who are violent in seemingly small, petty ways if not in large, obvious ways. Then love for all shrivels into love for no one.

I would like to hear your answer but I will give my own:

X is not blind to the torturer and the murderer. X is not blind to the violence that goes on interpersonally, here in this forum for example. Yet X still has love for all, for the whole, gratitude for all. This love is not based on barter or some evaluation of worthiness. It is love that just comes, in silent awareness. Even the horrors of unspeakable cruelty are encompassed. They are not accepted, forgiven, or excused. But they are not excluded. Real love is total.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #83
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Gratitude is not what it appears to be. It's more of a confusion on the part of the person expressing it.

As far as I see, that confusion is the direct consequence of thought. There does seem to be another kind of gratitude that is spontaneous and comes from the heart. Perhaps this is true of all action - action which is the result of thought is the result of confusion and leads to more confusion. Action which is not based on thought but is spontaneous and from the heart is different altogether. Have we observed this in our own lives or is it just a theory?

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Fri, 19 Oct 2018.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #84
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
was there in 1979 and I was in Brock wood park in 1978

The problem is you keep changing your story. There was no "big tent" in 78 or 79. You are lying and we both know it. I wasn't there in 84 an 85 but I don't think there was a big tent in the Oak Grove. Maybe over at the school.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #85
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1430 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Real love is total.

As i see it, the 'self' is not capable of 'love'. If the self is present love is not. As self understands 'love', it is a kind of affection but the love that K. talks about may be nothing like that...i don't know. The self metes out its type of 'love' according to the image it has formed of someone or something. Good image=affection, bad image=dislike, distrust, disdain, hate etc. This as i see it again can only change when the self understands that it is not separate from the images that are constantly being formed and updated. That it is these images. So when the self attempts to cease hating someone, say, with whom it has had a bad relation and tries to change it to something more positive, more affectionate, it can only come up with a new more positive 'image' of the person, and this can change the relationship somewhat, but what it seems the self can never do, is 'approach' whatever or whomever with no image coming in between. And this is because the self itself is an image? It is an imaginary 'center' as K. calls it created by past memories and experiences? So for me, the question of 'who' is deserving of love and who is not, is a question posed by the self. For the self, love has its opposite: hate. Real love i would suppose, has no opposite but it does not mean that it can't discern corruption, cruelty, and the insanity around us.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 19 Oct 2018.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #86
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Real love i would suppose, has no opposite but it does not mean that it can't discern corruption, cruelty, and the insanity around us.

That is an idea. The fact is that we don't know what love is. We only know what love is not. Any definition of love is mere speculation or concept made by thought.

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Fri, 19 Oct 2018 #87
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
In post #52, K is quoted as saying "You are grateful in your love for everyone."

That is just it. This quote covers your question adequately.

idiot ? wrote:
Let's take person X, who is grateful, in love, for everyone, for totality. Does X love the thugs who recently tortured and murdered the Saudi journalist? Does X love Hitler? Does X love the psychopath who murders?

I don't think it will be love if you love these acts you mention here. However I feel it is possible love may express differently here. You may feel very sorry for these people- the thugs, Hitler & so on.

Once I met a Tiger donor.A Professor. I was astonished by my response to him. Not that I have this love K talked about but instantly as I recognized him I felt deeply sorry for him. An adult who is a terrorist supporter who helped destroy a country. An adult who had gone wrong seriously in life.

I have read about Hitler's war. He was crazy but when think he tried to commit suicide & so on I feel sorry for him.I feel sorry for what happened to him.Getting cornered in the world & then shooting himself in a bunker.Not that I support his crazy theory. But a crazy man with such violent acts means a human being gone wrong in life. Don't you feel sorry?

I know of a person who cried when the news broke out that Bush started bombing Iraq. Not that she was a supporter of Saddam but nevertheless it was destruction.

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Sat, 20 Oct 2018 #88
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

I think talking about love(something that is unknown) only leads to heroism and image making . We can see that in Christianity ,the Christ who loved everybody including the sinners. Talking about what love is has no value because it is thought projecting . And anything that thought makes is false (psychologically speaking ).

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Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #89
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Not all gratitude is self-centered. I can be grateful that people are being fed and given medical care in countries far from where I live. I can be grateful that someone is protecting the environment. I can be grateful that people refrain from retaliatory violence with each other. I can be grateful for many things that have nothing to do with me.

But even when my self is involved, I can gratefully acknowledge a kindness done for me.

So what is gratitude? Isn't it appreciation? Doesn't it involve two things: noticing and giving value?

If I don't notice, if I am oblivious and take someone or something for granted, such ingratitude is really the result of self-absorption, isn't it? The awareness part of gratitude is vital. If I'm unaware and therefore ungrateful for a kindness being done, then my self-preoccupation has overwhelmed the possibility of loving appreciation.

After the noticing part of gratitude comes the giving value part. If I give value based on what I get, based on my own ideas and conditioning, then the gratitude is a masquerade and not virtuous. It is just a cover over self-centeredness.

But if, in the moment and without preconception, I notice something good being done, whether or not it is for me, if I gratefully acknowledge the good action, then surely right value has been given.

Thank you for your discussion of gratitude.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 21 Oct 2018.

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Sun, 21 Oct 2018 #90
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Appreciation and gratitude are not the same. Gratitude is verbal and it is simply saying 'thank you' but to appreciate things correctly it is not about saying merely thanks verbally. Appreciation is about having 'right values ',not fictitious values that we generally have.
The other issue that this site has is that it doesn't notify one that someone has responded to your comment like in Facebook . Well,it is what it is.:)

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