Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

The surprising lack of gratitude


Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 179 in total
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #31
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But gratidude to me seems such an insignificant factor in our lives. Do any of us suffer because we lack gratitude, or does our lack of gratitude cause suffering in others?

Tom you made a good point. Here is something else I just read in the K book "On Love and Loneliness" chapter entitled BROCKWOOD PARK, 30 AUGUST 1977. K pointed out that we don't have to take every single emotion, addiction, feeling to it's very end. To do it once with just one of these feelings is enough if we actually do it. To do it once if taken to the very end is enough. It's over. When I find the exact quote I will be glad to share it with full citation.

In the meantime does anyone here really have a gratitude problem that they feel they need to take to it's very root? Or are we just trying to entertain ourselves with made-up thought games?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #32
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
I think this issue of gratitude falls under reward which K covered often

That's an interesting point you have raised here. Didn't K also say that reward and punishment keeps a person from fully developing, from fully being free? Reward and punishment is a way of controlling people of making them your slaves.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #33
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1228 posts in this forum Offline

I wonder if K ever said, "thank you". For example at the dining table " Could you please pass the butter", with a "thank you" on its being received.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #34
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1228 posts in this forum Offline

Oh, I see now an example in post #4 above.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #35
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
I wonder if K ever said, "thank you". For example at the dining table " Could you please pass the butter", with a "thank you" on its being received.

K believed in certain kind of food so he would have not asked for butter or salt from others .:-)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #36
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
In the meantime does anyone here really have a gratitude problem that they feel they need to take to it's very root? Or are we just trying to entertain ourselves with made-up thought games?

If there is a problem with 'lack of gratitude' it certainly an problem with the ego.

Have you ever helped an old person or a child crossing over the street and feeled ashamed by the superfluous expression of gratitude ?

Yesterday's Quote expressed all those stupidities which are slowly destroying intelligence, this discussion seems one of them !

Buenos Aires, Argentina | 1st Public Talk 12th July, 1935

We have many stupidities and limitations which are slowly destroying intelligence, such as ideals, beliefs, dogmas, nationalism and the possessive idea of family;  and of these we are almost unconscious.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #37
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Dan : I think that it's safe to say that we are 'grateful', that we feel a sense of 'gratitude that K. did bring the 'teaching' into the world and into our lives

That's a very interesting point you have made Dan and reasoned out well too in your post . In similar lines few points were there in my mind . When we look at our own selves and our lives , leave out expressing / feeling gratitude towards k and the teaching , how much gratitude we express towards the Mother Earth ? In spite of the fact that our sole existence is completely and entirely dependent on the nurturing of the Mother Earth in a million ways?

On the other hand what does expressing of gratitude mean any ways ? Just paying lip service of ' thank you ' and be done with it ? Or extremely be aware and being sensitive towards all of these issues and also be aware how in million ways we humans are causing harm / destruction to the various species and the rich resources of our planet ?

As such if some one feels ' greatful ' towards few things or few people what's preventing them to show their feelings ? May be all these not much discussed qualities like expressing gratitude, showing kindness and appreciation to ones fellow beings ... all are nice and good in their own way ...

This post was last updated by pavani rao Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #38
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
With her passive/aggressive style and general attitude and other points I'd say she's a woman for sure

Isn't that a huge generalization you have in mind regarding ' women ' Jack ? Well you have corrected your statement later, but nevertheless that shows your opinions which might have been formed due to the interaction of women you might have come across in your life ? In the same way may be you think being angry and extremely prickly be the male characteristic ? Yes that's what often I feel reading / going through your responses to other fellow posters of the forum . I'm sure many people may be feeling the same way about you .

Now coming to the other side of you, I have great appreciation for your deep understanding of k teaching and often your ability to see ' false ' ' illusory ' nature in the people and in their posts and this quality in itself I feel is commendable .

Often you write that we need to understand our ' conditioning ' but how will that happen if one is not looking at oneself ? the way one perceives oneself and the way others' perceive oneself ... all together some what forms to some extent the persona of the person , isn't it ? When k speaks of observing oneself , either of ones feelings , emotions and ones problems and take them to the root of the issue and arrive at understanding oneself ... how that can be done ? If one is not willing to unravel this mystery of oneself ... Why the way one is ? which forms the basis of ' self knowledge '

Well Jack as long and old members of this forum I felt like sharing all the above points in honesty , if you find my post objectionable , I won't mind deleting it .

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #39
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
K believed in certain kind of food so he would have not asked for butter or salt from others .

This is complete nonsense. You have no idea what you are talking about....again. K ate both. Read Michael Krohnen's book KITCHEN CHRONICLES. Michael was K's chef when K was in Ojai and the book describes many of the meals he fixed for K. The receipts in the book included both butter and salt. And both butter and salt were on the table. The former for the wonderful biscuits Michael baked and K ate.

Michael was trained as a chef by the late Alan Hooker who owned and ran the Ranch House restaurant in Meiner's Oaks. The food was very rich for most tastes which was due mostly to the butter. Other people came to eat lunch with K and almost no one is going to eat food that has no salt. And they didn't.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #40
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

pavani rao wrote:
how much gratitude we express towards the Mother Earth ? In spite of the fact that our sole existence is completely and entirely dependent on the nurturing of the Mother Earth in a million ways?

Yes. Thank you for bringing in appreciation of nature and whether or not that is gratitude. K had and most of us here probably have a deep appreciation for nature and our planet. We are grateful for tree and forest and concerned about their survival.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #41
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

To express gratitude one has to have recorded experiences about which to be grateful. K, himself, mentioned several times in the records of his talks or discussions that he didn't record information. Here is one example:

J.krishnamurti; ON LOVE AND LONELINESS, pages 81,82.

The following quote was from K in dialogue with himself, as he put it, to express something about how thought invents loneliness and of how attachment to someone is not love. The quote: We have said that if there is love, there is o attachment, and if there is attachment, there is no love. So there has been the removal of the major factor through negation of what it is not. Do you know what it means in your daily life: no remembrance of anything my wife, my girlfriend, or my neighbor told me; no remembrance of any hurt; no attachment to the image about her. I was attached to the image thought had created about her--that she has hurt me, she has bullied me, she has given me comfort sexually, ten different things; all are the movement of thought which has created the image, and it is the image I was attached to. So attachment has gone.

Do you see that you have to have an image of someone which is based on your experiences with that person before you can feel gratitude for what you think that person has done for you? K had no images, no recorded history of his experiences with a person therefore there can be no gratitude.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #42
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
We are grateful for tree and forest and concerned about their survival.

I think we can all agree that K accepted things for what they were. Maybe a lot of us accept the beauty of Nature without forming an image of it. To feel gratitude or any other emotion requires an image of what you are experiencing.

Don't you see that gratitude is an invention of thought? If you are really present in Nature or with anything else there is no thought, so there is no gratitude. If you are thinking about all the of wonder things you are seeing when walking in the mountains, for example, you are seeing the past, the images you are making out of what you are seeing, feeling. Isn't that what K means by having a "quiet mind"? One that is not immediately translating the present into the past by forming images of what is being experienced. Do you see that?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #43
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Perhaps some of us would like to go into the question of gratitude together?

As some have pointed out, there is a dark side to gratitude, a side that reinforces the individual separative self. If I am grateful for what I get, that is just enlarging the I, boosting the separative I against the rest of the world.

If I am grateful for my big house, and my big cars, and my big furniture or whatever, isn't that just building a fortress of material things around an isolated self?

What about gratitude for basic needs? I am grateful for the food I have to eat. Am I aware of others in the world who do not have enough food? What does my gratitude for food say about them? Same with a roof over my head. When I am grateful for my dwelling does that say anything about the homeless, who seem to be increasing all the time in our cities? Of course, if I cannot eat enough or if I lose my place to live, it won't help others already in that predicament.

So is gratitude just boosting an individual self?

Suppose I am sick and my friend brings me healthy soup. I say nothing and just greedily gulp down the soup. Ingratitude is also self-centered, isn't it? If I don't notice a kindness offered to me, that lack of awareness is self-centered, isn't it? Or if I notice the gift and simply feel entitled, that kind of ingratitude is also selfish.

So to be grateful can be reinforcing the self and what I get. But gratitude can also be acknowledgement of kindness being offered.

Is some gratitude selfish and some not? Or is there something deeper about gratitude that we need to understand?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #44
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Why have you become so attached to talking about gratitude? Already the discussion has evolved from K not being grateful to just general gratefulness. And already the discussion has nothing to do with what K pointed out. Especially what he said about having a "quiet mind". It's over. Let it go, idiot?.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #45
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Have you ever helped an old person or a child crossing over the street and feeled ashamed by the superfluous expression of gratitude ?

Exactly. If we do an act of kindness or generosity spontaneously, we are not looking for a reward. Kindness is it's own reward. This kind of gratitude in your example, Wim, speaks to the stupidity or total meaninglessness of that kind of reward, I think.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #46
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Buenos Aires, Argentina | 1st Public Talk 12th July, 1935

We have many stupidities and limitations which are slowly destroying intelligence, such as ideals, beliefs, dogmas, nationalism and the possessive idea of family; and of these we are almost unconscious.

Very interesting quote Wim. This quote is certainly relevant in the United States where stupidity is very much in charge and for exactly all of the above reasons the quote listed.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #47
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If we do an act of kindness or generosity spontaneously, we are not looking for a reward. Kindness is it's own reward. This kind of gratitude in your example, Wim, speaks to the stupidity or total meaninglessness of that kind of reward, I think.

Yes, we are not looking for a reward. But we also need not mentally criticize someone for being grateful.

I spontaneously help an old person across they street. They smile and say, "Thank you." I walk away thinking, "You stupid old person thanking me unnecessarily???" No! I smile back and say "Thank you" back to them.

Why feel any shame or embarrassment? Isn't that overthinking? And isn't such overthinking the exact opposite of spontaneity?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #48
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Do you see that you have to have an image of someone which is based on your experiences with that person before you can feel gratitude for what you think that person has done for you?

No, I do not see that.

Krishnamurtim Adyar 4th Public Talk 1st January, 1934 :
Krishnamurti was garlanded by a member of the audience who wished him a happy new year.

Krishnamurti: Thank you. I had forgotten that it is a new year. I wish you all a happy new year too.

Here's K simply thanking someone for giving him a necklace of flowers.

Now if he had had an image of the audience member he might have said, "Sir, don't you see how giving me this garland is treating me like a guru? Aren't you aware of how plants were harmed to create this garland?"

Now that's image making!

No, K expressed simple and spontaneous thanks for a simple, generous act of love. This is what can happen when love meets love.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #49
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I spontaneously help an old person across they street. They smile and say, "Thank you." I walk away thinking, "You stupid old person thanking me unnecessarily???" No! I smile back and say "Thank you" back to them.

So where is the issue here, idiot?? I spontaneously do an act of kindness. The thank you I receive is spontaneous. Is any of this a problem for man? If not, why the need to discuss the issue? I make a nice dinner for my young child. They eat it with joy and relish. Seeing them enjoying it is my reward. Does it matter to me if they say thank you or not? A very young one doesn't even know the meaning of the word thank-you. They have to be taught...conditioned.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #50
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So where is the issue here, idiot??

There is no issue when an act of kindness is done spontaneously, whether or not there is a thank you.

But we're discussing what Wim Opdam wrote in post #37, "Have you ever helped an old person or a child crossing over the street and feeled ashamed by the superfluous expression of gratitude ?"

The feeling of shame and the mental criticism of the old person or child for their gratitude are issues.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #51
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

It's not clear to me what you are asking us to look into, idiot. When we look into fear, anger, jealousy, belief etc., we are obviously not saying "there should be or should not be" those things. We see they are a constraint, a bondage, a danger, destructive, and yet we don't know how to be free. So we want to fully understand it.

We also see that without love, life is meaningless and that love cannot be compelled or put together by thought.

In each of anger, fear etc., there is a corresponding inner state; each is a reflection of an inner condition. But is there one inner state of gratitude? Gratitude can be an expression of fear, anger, jealousy, hate, jealousy, desire, violence, etc., can't it? So it seems to me that gratitude does not have to be separated from the other emotions. Nor is any emotion separate from self-centredness, attachment, desire, belief, and so on.

There is the habitual social thanks for passing the salt; gratitude for one’s blessings, in which there can be comparison, conceit, fear; there is “you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” gratitude, obsequious gratitude, cunning, devious, grudging, fearful, gratitude. There are the obligatory prayers of gratitude to God in the Abrahamic religions. And so on.

Then there is gratitude which is a spontaneous expression - verbal or not - of love, as Tom said. Gratitude for saving my life or a loved one’s life, gratitude for love itself, love itself.

http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1927-1928-1929-early-writings/krishnamurti-early-writings-30-questions-and-answers

Early Writings - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Ommen, Holland, 1929:

The next question is "What is the right kind of gratitude?" To me there can be no question of gratitude, because if you really love everyone, you learn from everyone alike. You are not attached to one person.

You are grateful in your love for everyone. You learn from your servants, if you are observant, from the labourer, from the man who digs in the field, and from your greatest hero. You learn from them all, as you are really in love with them all, and there is no gratitude to anyone. Again, you are loyal to everyone, and not to one particular person. You will be loyal to one if you are loyal to all - because you love all. I tell you it is much more lovely, much more tranquil, serene, to love everyone alike; really to hold all people in your heart, not to be indifferent to anyone, not to have that variation of corruptible love in your heart is the greatest of blessings. When you have such love, you are learning, not from one thing, but from everything moving and non-moving, from everything transient and eternal. If you love only one person, you begin to worship, to look up to that person, you begin to suffocate yourself; you are not learning from life, you are not rejoicing in life, nor are you in love with it. The question of gratitude is a question of love, and for the person who loves one and not another, there is sorrow. This is not a mere platitude, but a reality. So love is as a flower which gives its perfume to every passer-by whether he be of this colour or that, of this type or that. The flower gives its perfume to all, and if you are wise you will breathe that perfume, rejoice in it. From the love which is small, which entangles, which is corruptible, you reach to that love which does not entangle, which is incorruptible.

Does this quote from K shed light on your question?

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 4 readers
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #52
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1372 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Why feel any shame or embarrassment? Isn't that overthinking? And isn't such overthinking the exact opposite of spontaneity?

indeed that feeling / word is not in place, I could not find a word for it, it was a self-evident act that was carried out effortlessly without any the need to express gratitude or reward or self-satisfaction.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #53
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Krishnamurti was garlanded by a member of the audience who wished him a happy new year.

Krishnamurti: Thank you.

I thought we were discussing "gratitude". Saying "Thank you" is not the same as gratitude. It seems disingenuous to equate the two.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #54
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
there is gratitude which is a spontaneous expression - verbal or not - of love

Thank you for your post #52 and various situations of gratitude. This is exactly what I am interested in discussing: how gratitude can be self-centered in situations and also how it is natural in love.

Thank you also for the K quote. It is the kind of discussion by K about gratitude that I have been looking for. It is a very early quote and therefore likely to have been transcribed by memory or from notes, so it may not be verbatim what K said. But K does "say" some great things in it such as, "You are grateful in your love for everyone." That is one thing I really wanted us to get at: that there is gratitude in love for all people, all things. This is the kind of deep appreciation that spontaneously is when real love is.

K (in the quote from Huguette above): "The question of gratitude is a question of love."

We have discovered quite a lot about gratitude. People are contributing very interesting things and I hope we continue to. And yes, I am grateful for that.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #55
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
K believed in certain kind of food so he would have not asked for butter or salt from others .:-)

Jack,you are such a cheating robot without a sense of humors . You quoted me and intentionally took the smiling face off and went off showing off your readings of K. You are making things up to insult people because you have been insulted all alone in this site by your childish posts. You are a robot, a machine without a sense of humor.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #56
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

I don't read any biography of k(specially from a "personal cook as if K was the king!) because K said directly to me that don't listen to anybody saying any thing about anybody else. Now Jack the robot is going to go off again.:-)

This post was last updated by One Self Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #57
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
I don't read any biography of k because K said directly to me that don't listen to anybody saying any thing about anybody else.

Another day, another rule. Do you really think if K said something like that that he was telling people not to read biographies? Can you explain, then, why K was so much help to his long time friend Mary Lutyens, in writing her biography of him?

You are aware that lying is a sin (according to somebody)? Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that K never spoke to an idiot before. It's just that I don't believe K was against reading biographies and I don't think he told you anything directly. Have you no sense of shame at all?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #58
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Michael was K's chef when K was in Ojai and the book describes many of the meals he fixed for K.

So K had a servant and a cook !! This guy was one of the cooks that made food at the gatherings held at the foundation. He was not K's personal cook. He wants everybody to believe the he was very close to K so that he can sell more books. I ate the food that people cooked at ojai so he was my personal cook too . :-) By the way the vegetarian foods were tasty and were given to all for free then.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #59
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
I don't read any biography of k(specially from a "personal cook as if K was the king!) because K said directly to me that don't listen to anybody saying any thing about anybody else. Now Jack the robot is going to go off again.:-).

Jack the cheating robot said something about shame ,something that he knows none and yet uses it. His personal messages are disgusting and even he was told not to send them but he is shameless and keeps sending them.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #60
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1262 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Michael was K's chef when K was in Ojai and the book describes many of the meals he fixed for K.

So K had a servant and a cook !! This guy was one of the cooks that made food at the gatherings held at the foundation. He was not K's personal cook. He wants everybody to believe the he was very close to K so that he can sell more books. I ate the food that people cooked at ojai so he was my personal cook too . :-) By the way the vegetarian foods were tasty and were given to all for free then.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 179 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)