Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The surprising lack of gratitude


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Tue, 16 Oct 2018 #1
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 495 posts in this forum Offline

I am amazed that there is very little about gratitude in K teaching. Please, if you can prove me wrong, show me K discussing gratitude in detail. I haven't been able to find much.

I don't find him expressing gratitude personally either. You would think he would have been grateful to Annie Besant. What I have found is him paying tribute to her for giving him the freedom to discover, but without an explicit thank you. Certainly many wealthy donors provided him and his organizations with a tremendous amount of financing.

Of course, the various K organizations express gratitude for the donations they receive. But I don't know of any examples of K expressing such gratitude on their behalf.

Certainly he had a deep appreciation of nature, which he often expressed. That may or may not be considered gratitude.

It's interesting because if you search the internet for "gratitude" you will find many spiritual teachers expressing the importance of gratitude and how it is part and parcel of becoming less selfish, less self-centered. For example, Eckhart Tolle, who some have compared to K, although I think he's at best a Cliff Notes, bullet list over-simplification of K with all sorts of extraneous add-ons, discusses gratitude and its importance.

So is gratitude important? Is it missing from K teaching? And why?

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Tue, 16 Oct 2018 #2
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It's interesting because if you search the internet for "gratitude" you will find many spiritual teachers expressing the importance of gratitude and how it is part and parcel of becoming less selfish, less self-centered.

No gratitude? So what? Another point: K was not a "spiritual teacher". He went out of his way to disclaim that title. And Tolle? Tolle is a hustler, a toad who tries to sell spirituality like so many other religious hustlers.

K had no center, no ego, no sense of self so what is it exactly that expresses "gratitude" or any other emotion? And what does gratitude have to do with understanding yourself? Our thinking/conditioning and understanding ourselves? It doesn't matter who K was or whether he fits your image of what a "spiritual leader" should be. What does matter is understanding yourself.

Of all the things that are relevant to discuss about K is gratitude all you can come up with? How is that helping you to learn more about yourself?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

KRISHNAMURTI TALKS 1949/50 Series 1 India

First Talk in Madras 1949/50

Krishnamurti: I know I have answered this question at different times in different ways. I also know that in spite of all I say, you are going to perform your rituals and rattle your swords for king and country. You do not want to understand and solve this problem of inequality. People have written to me saying, "You are very ungrateful to the Masters who have brought you up." It is so easy to make these statements. It is all cant. One has to discover for oneself that no Master can help one. Is it ungrateful to see that which is false and say it is false? You want me to be grateful to your idea, to your formulation of a Master, and when your ideas are disturbed, you call me ungrateful. The problem is not one of gratitude to the Masters, but of understanding yourself.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #4
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 495 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurtim Adyar 4th Public Talk 1st January, 1934 :
Krishnamurti was garlanded by a member of the audience who wished him a happy new year.

Krishnamurti: Thank you. I had forgotten that it is a new year. I wish you all a happy new year too.

The above 1934 quote is a nice, simple example of K expressing thanks and well wishes. I'm sure there are others.

Has anyone found an example where K discusses gratitude in an extended way?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #5
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

Hi idiot?

Interesting question about K and gratitude ... apparently it seems the question is not far fetched as k himself received notes from people asking about his not expressing gratitude towards 'masters ' during his life time ( courtesy relevant quote put up by Jack ) and in your case it seems your question is why he never expressed gratitude towards the so called rich / wealthy people who donated some money for the establishment of schools or the study centers ... the work he took up in his life .

Well come to think of it the man who denounced vast / expansive wealth and property which was waiting for him to take over when the Theosophists were about to crown him as their ' messiah ' .. and simply walked away from all that wealth and glory .. what value is money for a person like that ? and I remember reading him saying to few people that if / when the intent to do anything is strongly there ... money will follow as it never can be an issue .

Isn't ' compassion ' broad based , all encompassing word than ' gratitude ' ? I think his life is nothing but true embodiment of ' compassion ' the way he used to travel all over the world giving talks , discussing the same issues in spite of his old age and frail health , till the last days of his life ...

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #6
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 762 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
So is gratitude important? Is it missing from K teaching? And why?

Perhaps Krishnamurti did not really go in for expressing gratitude very much. I don't know if he did this in his personal life as I didn't know him. Of course one may feel something yet not express it.

K had no ego - is it reasonable to say that? He surely had a personality though, didn't he? Perhaps it's just a fact that some people express gratitude more readily than others. It's probably true to say that people who have a big ego may be less likely to acknowledge acts of kindness than people who are more selfless, but lack of ego may not always be associated with expressions of gratitude. He certainly came across, as Pavani pointed out, as a person who was full of compassion.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #7
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
K had no ego - is it reasonable to say that?

Yes, of course it is. Unless you think K was a prime hypocrite. What is the ego, center, self, etc? It is the invention of thought. What was one of the main things K talked about for some 60 years? That thought is limited, fragmented, the expression of memory which is the accumulation of experience and knowledge.

How many times have you read K saying only use thought only when you have to? Use thought to do the physical things we have to do to live; cook a meal, drive a car, etc, etc. The rest of the time the brain is quiet, attentive, without psychological thought. Do you think K would ask us to see if that is possible if he was not that himself? If there is no psychological thought can there be a center, a self, an ego?

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I don't know if he did this in his personal life as I didn't know him.

Well, I didn't know him either. But I did spend several months in the fall and winter of 1978/79 living in Arya Vihara (Pepper Tree Retreat) which is the old California ranch house situated in front of Pine Cottage and Mary Zimbalist's recent add on to Pine Cottage. K came to Ojai that year in February as usual. I got to see him daily. He came to Arya Vihara for lunch nearly everyday. A lunch I never attended myself. K was always smiling, attentive, personable to those he met and accessible. I never heard him express gratitude. He was the most alive person I have ever seen. His whole life seemed to be an appreciation of being alive.

He gave many private talks that winter, as usual, to the parents of the Oak Grove students and the teachers. The talks took place in Mary's large and spacious living room with the high ceiling held up by the heavy timber trusses. I did attend those talks although I was neither a parent or teacher. It was a beautiful room with white walls made of rock and large windows. The floor was covered with white and blue tiles that were heated from below. One never entered the house with shoes on. You left those outside the front door. When he spoke most attendees seemed to be more attentive to what was being said than to the speaker. Did K have a personality? Does a beautiful bird in a tree whistling a beautiful song under a sunny sky have a personality?

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 495 posts in this forum Offline

I am interested in whether K expressed gratitude on a personal level. But I am much more interested in whether he discussed the issue. I am surprised that in 50 years or so of giving talks that no one asked him about gratitude or that he never spoke about it. How can that be? He spoke about nearly every psychological issue. In the US, Thanksgiving is celebrated every November. How is it that no one ever asked him about it? I really am hoping that someone does find an instance of him talking about the issue.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #10
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

My dear Sir(idiot?) Gratitude is of the self. It is for egoists.

K had love. Otherwise would he have talked to people for 60-70 years?

And love may be very fierce, very disturbing & may appear very unkind.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #11
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

If you have love you will do the right.

But if you are grateful you are bribing.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But I am much more interested in whether he discussed the issue. I am surprised that in 50 years or so of giving talks that no one asked him about gratitude or that he never spoke about it. How can that be?

I posted one about gratitude. The one above that you are ignoring because I damaged your ego or because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions. There are exactly five posts about gratitude listed in the archives that can be accessed on J.Krishnamurtionline.org. One of them is in a language I can't understand.

Gratitude is an emotion. K wasn't big on expressing emotions. For a much better explanation read Mr. Kulasinghe's posts above.

Maybe the reason he didn't express much, if anything, about gratitude was because it wasn't important to him or his teachings.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #13
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
If you have love you will do the right.

But if you are grateful you are bribing.

Very well expressed.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #14
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 495 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Gratitude is of the self.

We can discuss whether gratitude is of the self or not. This is a fairly complex question.

First, I am asking why K did not discuss it. He discussed fear, loneliness, hate, gossip, criticism, jealousy, desire, belief, anger, violence, self-centeredness, etc., etc. He discussed all kinds of things that most of us would say did not characterize him. Why did he not discuss gratitude?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #15
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 495 posts in this forum Offline

K also discussed nationalism and prayer. Many, many people believe both of these are very positive and important in life. K pointed out that the fervor of nationalism is actually dividing people and generating conflict. He explained that petitionary prayer is really begging to an unconscious projection. In both cases, he pointed out fundamental root problems underneath these two qualities that people hold in high regard.

K could have taken a similar approach with gratitude but he did not discuss the issue. Why?

I have brought up the question so that we can go into these matters. As we do, we may find that gratitude is not so straightforward, that both self-centeredness and freedom from self may underlie it. It will be up to us to go into the question, without any quotation help from K used as an authority.

I am astonished that K did not discuss it. Many of you, instead of being surprised, are instantly defensive. K discussed all kinds of ego caused problems in great detail. Even if gratitude is ego caused, which is a question we must together investigate, why did K not discuss it?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #16
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1344 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Even if gratitude is ego caused, which is a question we must together investigate, why did K not discuss it?

I think that it's safe to say that we are 'grateful', that we feel a sense of 'gratitude that K. did bring the 'teaching' into the world and into our lives. He obviously was aware that the people closest to him were 'grateful' to be in his presence as were the thousands who were able to come to his talks. But why didn't he discuss the emotion that everyone around him was exhibiting?... It's one thing to feel a sense of gratitude because one 'thinks' that one is 'getting' something. But as K. himself said at one point that no-one was getting what he was talking about. So the 'gratitude' was misplaced in an important way. People were feeling 'grateful' for the wrong reasons. In a way he did discuss this when he put off the notion that he was helping people. When someone felt 'gratitude' for his 'help'. He asked on occasion why do you need help? And who could possibly 'help' one in this realm of self-knowledge?

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #17
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 495 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
But as K. himself said at one point that no-one was getting what he was talking about. So the 'gratitude' was misplaced in an important way...He asked on occasion why do you need help? And who could possibly 'help' one in this realm of self-knowledge?

That's something that I had not considered. Thank you for bringing in that angle.

But even if K was surrounded by people with gratitude for their understanding that was only partial, he still could have discussed gratitude in general, couldn't he?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #18
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

Say, I have an idea Ms idiot?. Why don't your take you thesis on gratitude and write up an article and send it to NATIONAL ENQUIRER. They love this kind of stuff. Maybe they will feature your article on their front page. Just imagine your name in print in all of those grocery stores across the country.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #19
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 990 posts in this forum Offline

Why don't we discuss gratitude independent of k. When are we grateful of someone? When he or she gives us what we want whether it is money or sex . K said many times to his audience that I don't want anything from you. He also said that I don't know why you come here.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #20
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 990 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Just imagine your name in print in all of those grocery stores across the country.

Is K-forum a place to be sarcastic!!

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #21
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
Is K-forum a place to be sarcastic!!

Is the K forum a place to raise pointless questions? K didn't mention gratitude most likely because it wasn't worth mentioning.

This is a serious place for serious discussions not a place to dwell on gossip or unimportant things. What does gratitude have to do with self understanding and the other important things K pointed out? Nothing!

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #22
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 990 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
K didn't mention gratitude most likely because it wasn't worth mentioning.

Now this is a value judgment ! idiot brought up an interesting question and he got bunch of answers. This is a discussion forum and anything goes. Stop limiting it to your likes and dislikes.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #23
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
This is a discussion forum and anything goes. Stop limiting it to your likes and dislikes.

Now this is a value judgment! Sound familiar DH? If you don't like it don't read it. And what makes you think idiot? is a man? With her passive/aggressive style and general attitude and other points I'd say she's a woman for sure. Not that men can't be passive/aggressive too it's just the way she does it and some other things.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #24
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 990 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And what makes you think idiot? is a man?

Man or woman ,who cares?

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #25
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 495 posts in this forum Offline

I do not know why K didn't discuss gratitude. Perhaps no one does.

Perhaps we can discuss this question of gratitude more.

First, some here have suggested or declared that K "had no ego." Here is how K replied to someone who directly stated to him that he had "realized reality":

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, On God:

How do you know I have realized? To know that I have realized, you also must have realized. This is not just a clever answer. To know something you must be of it. You must yourself have had the experience also and therefore your saying that I have realized has apparently no meaning. What does it matter if I have realized or have not realized? Is not what I am saying the truth? Even if I am the most perfect human being, if what I say is not the truth why would you even listen to me? Surely my realization has nothing whatever to do with what I am saying and the man who worships another because that other has realized is really worshipping authority and therefore he can never find the truth. To understand what has been realized and to know him who has realized is not at all important, is it?

I know the whole tradition says, ”Be with a man who has realized.” How can you know that he has realized? All that you can do is to keep company with him and even that is extremely difficult nowadays. There are very few good people, in the real sense of the word - people who are not seeking something, who are not after something. Those who are seeking something or are after something are exploiters and therefore it is very difficult for anyone to find a companion to love.

We idealize those who have realized and hope that they will give us something, which is a false relationship. How can the man who has realized communicate if there is no love? That is our difficulty. In all our discussions we do not really love each other; we are suspicious. You want something from me, knowledge, realization, or you want to keep company with me, all of which indicates that you do not love. You want something and therefore you are out to exploit. If we really love each other then there will be instantaneous communication. Then it does not matter if you have realized and I have not or if you are the high or the low.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 17 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #26
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Sir/Madam (idiot?),

K discussed all aspects of the self thoroughly. Again & again.

K mentioned a lot about reward & punishment. A lot.

I think this issue of gratitude falls under reward which K covered often

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #27
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I do not know why K didn't discuss gratitude. Perhaps no one does.

Well, here's my $.02 about it, idiot? K talked extensively about all the factors in man's life that cause him so much suffering. Greed leads to suffering, I think we all agree....and hatred...religious and political beliefs and ideals. He talked about those aND anger, fear, conflict, etc. But gratidude to me seems such an insignificant factor in our lives. Do any of us suffer because we lack gratitude, or does our lack of gratitude cause suffering in others?

Let it Be

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Wed, 17 Oct 2018 #28
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

K talked about praise & insult very often.

Is not praise a form of gratitude?

So did he not cover all this discussing the self in different words although the word 'gratitude' was not used often?

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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #29
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
First, some here have suggested or declared that K "had no ego." Here is how K replied to someone who directly stated to him that he had "realized reality":

Well you twisted that around. No surprise there. It was a simple statement that K had no ego. One based on reason not worship. If K did have an ego then everything he said about the ego, center, self, whatever was all theory and not worth the paper it was written on. Why is that bit of logic so hard to see?

K also said, many times, look it up if you want, that thought can't solve anything, psychologically. It can solve 2 plus 2 is 4 but that's not what we are talking about. What we are really talking about is that some people would rather introduce thought problems than do the difficult work of following their thoughts to the very root. To be aware of their thoughts and to be aware that thinking is fragmented, incomplete, conditioned. So why introduce a non-problem and waste time on trying to solve something that means absolutely nothing?

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Thu, 18 Oct 2018 #30
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5440 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Only wrote:
Man or woman ,who cares?

I was just expressing an impression after several of you referred to her as "Mr". It's probably "Ms". You know what has been said about "listening" not only with your ears and eyes but with your whole being? So when I express what I have "heard" with all my senses I get jumped on. It's not a man/woman issue but one of attention and awareness.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 18 Oct 2018.

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