Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Gurus


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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 #1
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

From 'The Awakening of Intelligence', posted on the J. Krishnamurti Facebook group:

"All gurus are phony. You can take that for granted right from the beginning." (K.)

Any comments?

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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 443 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine quoted K:

All gurus are phony.

Obviously there are some, perhaps many, spiritual teachers who honestly believe what they are teaching. These kind are not deliberately trying to con you. But can what they teach genuinely match what you yourself can discover? At best they can point you back to yourself.

Others really are conmen and charlatans.

And what about K? Do we take him for a guru? Is he therefore a phony? And if so, do we do well to disregard what he said?

I have said it before: It's very easy to learn K teaching in a surface way. In this case, no spiritual teachers. It is something else altogether to be crystal clear on why. Why are spiritual teachers problematic? If you are not deeply aware of why they are, you have just memorized a Krishnamurti rule. How is that any different from unwarranted faith? Which is, actually, one of the big problems with taking someone as a guru.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 30 Jul 2018.

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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 #3
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

Obviously there are some, perhaps many, spiritual teachers who honestly believe what they are teaching.

Yes, but they make truth into something fixed. Now do we see for ourselves the truth of K’s statement, or are we just repeating it because we take him for an authority? Speaking for myself, I saw the truth of Ks statement very clearly a few years back. It was clear as a bell to me at the time. That doesn’t guarantee I won’t fall into the trap again, I suppose. But if we see this statement of Ks as true, we wouldn’t fall into the trap of making K into a guru., I don’t think.

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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 #4
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
All gurus are phony. You can take that for granted right from the beginning." (K.)

If the person is teaching some system, then the person is phony.

And they are all teaching some system!

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Mon, 30 Jul 2018 #5
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 678 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
And what about K?

Yes what about krishnamurti, was he dishonest?

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

Ken D wrote:
I can't locate the original source for the quote.

Did you do a thorough search? I found it on a J. Krishnamurti facebook group. If you want to search a little further I suggest just searching one of the K. online repositories of the 'teachings' for the word guru. I can think of one quote from memory..."the guru is an abomination." He also spoke quite a bit of the danger of all 'spiritual' authority. The guru is a spiritual authority, by definition, no? Well, there's probably quite a bit if you search for references to the word 'guru'. I have to shut down for the night, but perhaps I will search tomorrow. Have a busy schedule, so only if time permits.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #7
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 443 posts in this forum Offline

Ken is right. It's a phony quote.

It's another claim that K said something that he did not. We've had a number of these lately.

He did not say, "All gurus are phony." He did not say negative things about homosexuals. At least as far as there is any evidence.

He did, however, say that he saw fairies.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #8
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 678 posts in this forum Offline

K spoke "negative" about gurus! Or told the truth about them .Those are two different thing. Is truth negative or liberating ?

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

He did not say negative things about homosexuals

He did say that homosexuality was a neurosis. Look it up. And he did say that the guru is an abomination. Those two I read a number of years back, but they stuck in my head. Don't take my word for it however. Perhaps tomorrow I'll search the archives for those. But we can surely find some of the warnings he gave about spiritual authority. There were many. And the guru is not a guru without his 'authority' (given to him by you and I and by himself).

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

From Brockwood Park 1980: Surely that which has been created by thought must be illusion. If you create me as being your guru – I refuse to be a guru, it is too absurd, because I see how the followers destroy the guru and the guru destroys the followers – but if you create an image about me, about the speaker, then the whole business begins; to me it is an abomination.

The reassuring image is a great comfort; it may be a total illusion – and it is – but it gives comfort and therefore we will never look beyond the illusion.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 31 Jul 2018.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

May 15, 1980 Ojai

If one understands the tyranny of one guru – they are tyrants, because they want power, position; they know; others do not know – then one has seen the tyranny of all gurus. So one does not go from one guru to another.

Chapter 15 Commentaries on Living (1)

The young man was eager and insisted on the importance of the guru, the teacher; the others were in accord with him and smiled with delight as he made his points, clearly and objectively. The sky was very blue, and a white-throated eagle was circling just above us with hardly a flutter of the wing. It was a very beautiful day. How we destroy each other, the pupil the guru, and the guru the pupil! How we conform, break away to take shape again! A bird was pulling out a long worm from the moist earth.

Brockwood Park, general discussion, Sept. 1975:

When you say, 'You sitting on that platform, you have gradually assumed, at least in my eyes, a position of authority, you have become my guru'. And I say to you, 'My friend, just listen, I'm not your guru. I won't be a guru to anybody. It is monstrous to be a guru'.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 31 Jul 2018.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2018 #12
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

I'll throw this last one in because I think it's a good one. Anyone can search J.Krishnamurti.org online and find many more excerpts on the topic of the 'guru'. This one is from Poona Oct. 3, 1948:

The questioner asks me, `Are you not yourself a guru?' You can make me one, but I am not a guru. I do not want to be one for the simple reason that there is no path to truth. You cannot discover the path, because there is no path, Truth is a thing that is living, and to a living thing there is no path - it is only, to dead things that there can be a path. Truth being pathless, to discover it you must be adventurous, ready for danger; and do you think a guru will help you to be adventurous, to live in danger? To seek a guru obviously indicates that you are not adventurous, that you are merely seeking a path to reality as a means of security. So, you can make me into a guru if you wish, but it will be your misery, because there is no guru to truth, there is no leader to reality. That reality is an eternal being in the present, not in the future; it is in the immediate now, not in the ultimate tomorrow. T

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 31 Jul 2018.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #13
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
He did say that homosexuality was a neurosis.

I am glad to read this although I myself had one encounter at the age of 12!

If you have the time please consider providing the quotation by K in this regard. I myself think homosexuality is a neurosis.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #14
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
He did, however, say that he saw fairies.

My dear Sir you are talking about something you don't know about.This is esoteric area.

He probably saw those. I cannot see fairies.But have seen things which I never saw when I began reading K. I can pass the polygraph that I knew the date of the Japanese tsunami from a spiritual being. Get me on the polygraph & I will take it. However I went wrong about 100times trying to predict another Asian tsunami.

Why do you want to insult & belittle a great teacher without adequate inquiry to make these comments?

You know some people thrashed Jesus like a dog. K was once poisoned. A prostitute's body was buried at the place the great Buddha was living. An attempt was made on his life once.

So what you are doing historically some people did to great people.

Please be clear sir To see fairies the organism has to become more sensitive I think. That needed inner great inquiry.

This post was last updated by Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Wed, 01 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #15
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

This reminds me of the subject of ufo's, which I researched extensively when much younger. A family member who's integrity I vouch for 100% saw one, and many trained military as well as civilian pilots have seen them . Yet many people dismiss this whole subject as imagination or hallucination. I could say much more on the subject but it's probably not relevant to what we're discussing here.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #16
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
If you have the time please consider providing the quotation by K in this regard. I myself think homosexuality is a neurosis.

Sorry, but I only have my memory to go by here. Anyone can search the archives if they're interested. I don't find it particularly significant....or no more so than saying smoking cigarettes is neurotic behavior....or any addiction like over eating...even adfictiom to or fanatical identification with one's sports team

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #17
Thumb_stringio Daniel Paul. Ireland 100 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
My dear Sir you are talking about something you don't know about.This is esoteric area.

He probably saw those. I cannot see fairies.But have seen things which I never saw when I began reading K. I can pass the polygraph that I knew the date of the Japanese tsunami from a spiritual being. Get me on the polygraph & I will take it. However I went wrong about 100times trying to predict another Asian tsunami.
Hello Jayaraj

well I remember that at the time you mentioned something about a moon and about a tsunami just before it occurred yes...was it on this website or the k-ning one , I can't remember that..

cheers..

Dan ...........

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #18
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Moon Dan?

Well yes I remember that I said I once met a person who refused to believe that man went to moon.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #19
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 443 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
However I went wrong about 100times trying to predict another Asian tsunami.

So if you predict a natural disaster often enough, eventually you will be right! What a surprise. A broken clock is also right twice a day.

Tom Paine wrote:
He did say that homosexuality was a neurosis.

I have looked it up on Krishnamurti Online and I can find no evidence of K saying anything negative about homosexuals. If you can find something, please cite when and where he said it, or provide a link. It is possible that K said something and it is not online. It is also possible that they have whitewashed particularly objectionable things he said. But it is also possible that he never said such things. If he did, there should be evidence, given how much recording was made of him.

People expressing anti-homosexual views here are offensive. Just as people expressing racist views would be. Such prejudice is simply wrong. K constantly talked about the division and conflict of "us versus them" thinking. Those expressing anti-homosexual views here are engaging in the exact violence that K warned about.

Tom Paine wrote:
we can surely find some of the warnings he gave about spiritual authority.

Of course, K spoke out frequently about the dangers of gurus and spiritual teachers. But no evidence has been given about the specific quote at the start of this thread about all gurus being phony. It is likely a fake quote. K was quite careful and precise in his speech and we owe it to him to quote what he actually did say rather than made up things that are close to what he said.

It is not that difficult to go to Krishnamurti Online and look up an exact quote to copy and paste here. Memory can all too often be inaccurate.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 01 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #20
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
People expressing anti-homosexual views here are offensive.

Saying that it's neurotic isn't negative any more than saying over eating is neurotic. It's just a simple diagnosis. He may be wrong on this issue however. I have no idea about that.

K constantly talked about the division and conflict of "us versus them" thinking.

Is it creating division to say that overeating or cigarette smoking is neurotic behavior?

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 01 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #21
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
It is likely a fake quote. K was quite careful and precise in his speech and we owe it to him to quote what he actually did say rather than made up things that are close to what he said.

I for one didn't make it up. Perhaps the person who posted it on FB did. Time permitting I will visit the FB group and try to contact him/her. However the excerpts I posted above are in essence saying the same thing as he allegedly said in the quote. It's the essence that counts, no...not the exact wording?

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #22
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 443 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Saying that it's neurotic isn't negative...

Please cite where K actually said this.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #23
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
Please cite where K actually said this.

I can't. It's in a book I have here at home, but I have no idea which one, and I have a few. It simply stuck in my memory, since there has been so much discussion online and in the news on the subject of 'gay pride'. It's something I often wondered about....what makes someone gay. And it seems so unusual for a man to be sexually attracted to another man from the point of view of someone like myself who is a heterosexual. Feel free to ignore it if it causes discomfort. I honestly don't have time to search right now...perhaps later. My memory is very clear on this. I can't recall the exact wording but he was saying that homosexuality is neurotic. I will search later J.Krishnamurti.org for the two words homosexuality and neurotic....and also neurosis. Not sure which word was used.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 01 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #24
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 443 posts in this forum Offline

Many homosexuals feel that they were born that way. If they were born that way, is it fair to call it a neurosis? Of course not.

If you were born with dark skin, is it fair to call that a neurosis? Of course not.

If K expressed anti-homosexual views, I would like to see the evidence.

K certainly was raised in Victorian times when such views were common. And Leadbeater may have been a pedophile, something quite different from a gay man who has relations with another adult man. Whether Leadbeater was a pedophile is unclear. If he was, whether he molested K is unclear. These matters could have contributed to K having a negative attitude towards gays, but again, I have seen no evidence for it. If someone can find evidence, please present it.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #25
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

Many homosexuals feel that they were born that way. If they were born that way, is it fair to call it a neurosis? Of course not.

Agreed. I don't take K as an authority on all things. A gay friend of mine knew he was 'different' from a very early age...prior to puberty. I can't see how that made him neurotic.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #26
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

Well, I think we should call the homosexuality subject to a halt, since it’s off topic, and moreover, it’s more important to discover our own prejudices in this area than to debate whether K called it neurotic or not. He could just have easily pointed out that an addiction to pornography is neurotic. Does it really matter if he felt it was? We’re not accepting his views as gospel I hope. But, I started this thread with the guru quote that I saw on a Facebook group, so I want to keep to the topic. If this is not attributable to K., I apologize, but I feel the topic is still valid, since K often warned about the danger of any spiritual authority....and the guru is a direct manifestation of our desire for and belief in, authority in this area. As I said above, time permitting, I will look for the guru quote on the Facebook group and attempt to contact the person who posted it. I do feel that the excerpts I posted above accurately reflect K’s view of the subject of the OP.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 01 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #27
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

Well it took some digging but I found the quote about ‘gurus’ on the Facebook group J. Krishnamurti. I posted a comment asking for the source. We’ll see if I get a reply.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #28
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Online

I don't know how to find the link to the group or the post. The group is called J. Krishnamrti, on Facebook. Just scroll down a ways. It was posted a few days ago. Supposedly it's from "The Awakening of Intelligence", a book I own.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #29
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Well quote or no quote K meant this about gurus umpteen number of times I believe.

If I've understood correctly K's comment is stemming from the meaning with which K viewed the word 'guru'.As far as I understood K saw the word to mean someone who instructs, who maintains authority over others etc.

K did not say that attitude-of authority-can be compassion. So basically this word meant to him someone who is not a true spiritual teacher.

So going by the meaning K seemed to have had for the word 'all gurus are phoney' supposedly by K is valid in my view.

Please note- once Pupulji once said ' you are my guru' when the discussion was about gurus, K response was- ' what do you mean by 'guru'?

So it's got to be the meaning he had for the word.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2018 #30
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Well just one question about homosexuality please.

Is this habit is known to be among animals?

Sorry Tom, just this one question.

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