Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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How many people understand Krishnamurti?

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Tue, 28 Aug 2018 #211
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1299 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Apparently, it is. Why would you want to put yourself second? What does it even mean? Second to what?

It means the same thing as putting yourself first in the line.
As I said selfishness is not a fact it is a conditioning. People in America are more selfish than people in Japan. It is how you are brought up to think.
Your problem is to take selfishness as fact. It is a choice to be selfish or not. You said it is me first you second . Then you ask second to what?! Can you discuss any other thing like do you understand Krishnamurti? What part of it you understand so we can go from there.

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Tue, 28 Aug 2018 #212
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
As I said selfishness is not a fact it is a conditioning.

Oh brother are you ever confused. You make up definitions of words and then stick to them like glue.

Selfishness is an actual fact, selfishness can be the result of conditioning and conditioning is also a fact. Indeed we are all conditioned. Some conditioning is necessary. Without it we couldn't drive a car, cook a meal or do most of the things we need to do everyday just to live.

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Tue, 28 Aug 2018 #213
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1299 posts in this forum Offline

You are conditioned to be an American or an Arab. Is being an American a fact? Surely it is not . it is merely a label that you have accepted as a fact. Now keep mixing facts with illusions and make everything into abstraction and get nowhere.:-)

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Tue, 28 Aug 2018 #214
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

So, we must stop now. We'll continue. But please, we are not talking about something theoretically, hypothetical, but we are dealing with facts. Facts are that which is happening now, that which has happened before. Not that which is going to happen, is not a fact. The fact is what you are thinking, doing, now, and the fact of what you have done before - those are facts. But ideals are not facts, but you have all ideals, therefore you live in illusory worlds. When a brain lives in an illusory world you are bound to create conflict for yourself and for others. But when you are dealing with facts, day after day, not supposition of facts, not saying, because to me my opinion is a fact and I stick to that fact - it's so obvious, your opinions, like any other opinion is non-fact. But what you do out of that opinion, out of that conclusion, out of that theory is a fact. You understand? If you have an illusion and act according to that illusion, that becomes a fact. And your illusion is a fact too. You understand? So one has to be aware, look, question and doubt to find out.

First Public Talk in Madras, December, 1983

What is fact is we are violent, ignoble, corrupt, uncertain and so on. Those are facts and we have to deal with facts. Facts, if you face them, they do not create problems. It is like that.

Second Public Talk, Bombay, January, 1983

I could go on and on with these examples of facts. Your definition of what a "fact" is is not the same as the way K used the word or how it is generally used. So guess who has to change? You are creating problems for yourself with your narrow and inaccurate definition of "facts". And yes, being various things such as selfish and so on are facts.

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Tue, 28 Aug 2018 #215
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K: it's so obvious, your opinions, like any other opinion is non-fact.

Just get that. That is what I said to idiot but you wouldn't understand because you are caught in competition and comparison.
Facts have authority , opinions have no authority.

This post was last updated by One Self Tue, 28 Aug 2018.

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Tue, 28 Aug 2018 #216
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Just get that. That is what I said to idiot but you wouldn't understand because you are caught in competition and comparison.
Facts have authority , opinions have no authority.

Why can't you stick to what people say in response to your posts instead of going off on another tangent? Both of your last two posts, in response to posts I made, did not deal with what I had written.

Try to focus so that your responses have something to do with the post you are responding to. Otherwise you are just posting gibberish in a vain and childish attempt to redirect the conversation away from your erroneous conclusions.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #217
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Jack Pine wrote:
Otherwise you are just posting gibberish in a vain and childish attempt to redirect the conversation away from your erroneous conclusions.

How old are you? Or maybe you are a robot and have already made paragraphs. Who knows. Good luck having ANY conversation with anybody here.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #218
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Goodman B wrote:
You are conditioned to be an American or an Arab. Is being an American a fact? Surely it is not . it is merely a label that you have accepted as a fact. Now keep mixing facts with illusions and make everything into abstraction and get nowhere.:-).

Instead of responding to above you hide behind Krishnamurti. That shows lack of intelligence.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #219
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When a person intentionally tries to misunderstand and ignores and yet responds from that ignorance then there cannot be any communication instead it becomes a troll. Misunderstanding is an illness that gives pleasure to the one who does it intentionally. These are all facts.
I write these things exclusively for myself. If anybody relates to them then he or she can say something and we can move on.
I care less what jack's opinions are . He can keep it to himself.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 29 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #220
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B: It is a choice to be selfish or not.

I am selfish; that is a fact. To choose not to be selfish, that's an idea. So the choice to be non-selfish, altruistic, is a selfish action; it is a movement away from the fact, away from what I actually am. It is like a violent man choosing to be non-violent: the non-violence is merely a projected ideal and from there I hope to live, in ignorance of the fact of my violence. But my violence will seep into everything I do, especially in my relationships with others where I am forever trying to present this false image of myself as someone peaceful, altruistic. You have read K; surely you must know all this.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #221
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Paul Dimmock wrote:
You have read K; surely you must know all this.

No ,I don't know all this . All I know is the words I read and the effect they have on my nervous system. You like to be selfish because there is monetary benefit in that. If there was no monetary reward would you be selfish? What is the need to be selfish? Does selfishness lead the way to happiness? If it doesn't do something. Your house is on fire and you continue to put fuel on it. Is there any intelligence in being selfish. In being an American or Arab or Catholic or this and that? Surely not. But you don't see it . you like to chat while the house is on fire!

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #222
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1382 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
When a person intentionally tries to misunderstand and ignores and yet responds from that ignorance then there cannot be any communication instead it becomes a troll. Misunderstanding is an illness that gives pleasure to the one who does it intentionally. These are all facts.
I write these things exclusively for myself.

Walk your own talk ,
this is exactly what you are doing in the topic " facts have authority '.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #223
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B: No, I don't know all this. All I know is the words I read and the effect they have on my nervous system. You like to be selfish because there is monetary benefit in that. ... Your house is on fire and you continue to put fuel on it.

Sir, it is not a choice to be selfish. Survival is essential. A safe home with food and clothes is essential. Without these, I am an insecure frightened human being. But you are hearing the word 'selfish' and reading all sorts of things into it, condemning it without first looking at the fact. Society praises and rewards those who are altruistic; society condemns selfish behaviour. Every religion says, 'Love thy neighbour,' or some such version of it. But society continues to operate selfishly, competitively, one opinion against the other, one faction on the right against another faction on the left. So society says one thing and does another. And, as an individual, that's what we do too: we say, 'I love you,' and yet we set limits on that love. So a lot of our most important words have lost all their meaning.

I am selfish. That means I have to put my own house in order first before I can help you. Otherwise, whatever I do to help you or another will continue to create havoc and mischief in the world. Selfishness, which is you, is like a flame. When you watch it, there is great beauty in it; and it stays very small. But when you turn away and go off to something else, that flame can cause a conflagration and be the most destructive energy in your life.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #224
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Instead of responding to above you hide behind Krishnamurti. That shows lack of intelligence.

I have responded to you and so have several other people but you don't listen. You just keep repeating yourself. When I show you a quote or two from K about what facts really are instead of what you think they are you can't, apparently, comprehend what you are reading.

GB, sooner or later you have to face the fact that you really don't know what you are talking about.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #225
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The question is how many people in this forum have understood Krishnamurti. The answer is none even though quoting him is done frequently. The quotes are fine but understanding them and acting is something else.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #226
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"Life is so rich, has so many treasures, we go to it with empty hearts; we do not know how to fill our hearts with the abundance of life. We are poor inwardly and when the riches are offered to us, we refuse. Love is a dangerous thing, it brings the only revolution that gives complete happiness. So few of us are capable of love, so few want love. We love on our own terms, making of love a marketable thing. We have the market mentality and love is not marketable, a give-and-take affair. It is a state of being in which all man's problems are resolved. We go to the well with a thimble and so life becomes a tawdry affair, puny and small."

Krishnamurti Letters to a Young Friend,7

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #227
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"Life is so rich, has so many treasures, we go to it with empty hearts; we do not know how to fill our hearts with the abundance of life. We are poor inwardly and when the riches are offered to us, we refuse. Love is a dangerous thing, it brings the only revolution that gives complete happiness. So few of us are capable of love, so few want love. We love on our own terms, making of love a marketable thing. We have the market mentality and love is not marketable, a give-and-take affair. It is a state of being in which all man's problems are resolved. We go to the well with a thimble and so life becomes a tawdry affair, puny and small."

Krishnamurti Letters to a Young Friend,7

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #228
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
The question is how many people in this forum have understood Krishnamurti. The answer is none

Making that judgment implies that you do understand K. The whole question, "Do you understand K" is wrong to begin with. The point is not to understand K but to understand yourself.

Also, you don't seem to understand the arrogance of your above statement. Thinking you understand K is a fairly common mistake people new to K make. You're not the first, but trying to force your misunderstandings on others just brings animosity, division and confusion to the forum. Believe what you want but don't force your beliefs on others.

I'm done trying to converse with you. All it does is bring more antagonism to this forum and it's obviously useless.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 29 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #229
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Jack Pine wrote:
I'm done trying to converse with you.

Thank goodness. :-)

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #230
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Krishnamurt: The word 'selfishness ' is already a judgement.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #231
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Q: But don't you admit this is change different from one thing to other?

K: No, madame, I explained all that. Look, please. What is a human being to do, confronted with all these facts, that the politicians, whoever they are, are not going to solve the problems, they pretend. The religious people are not going to solve this problem of human suffering, human selfishness. Nor the analysts, nor the psychologists, not the philosophers - they have all tried for centuries. And besides, why should I accept them as my authority? They might be as foolish as I am - why should I accept them, as cunning, deceitful as I am. So I say to myself, they cannot solve this problem. So who will solve this problem? God? - god is an invention of thought, whether it is a Christian god, or Hindu god, or the Muslim god. So I say to myself, thought is in action all the time, thought has created this world in which I live, the world of nationalities, wars, brutality. Thought has done all this, and my mind is caught in that stream of thought. And whatever thought does in that stream will pollute further the stream. That is the thing I have to be shocked into. Then the brain operates differently. Right sir, tomorrow morning.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #232
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5659 posts in this forum Offline

Let me point out that anyone who doesn't give a citation for quoting K is not only being disrespectful to the rest of us but is also free to change whatever wording they want to make it read however they want. This is especially true of someone who already has a record of changing the words to someone's quote.

When you quote K and don't give a citation it keeps the rest of us, who may be interested, from looking up and reading more about that quote.

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Wed, 29 Aug 2018 #233
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You don't have to read it. It is not for you who condemns and judges people in here. Plus if anybody is interested to read the rest of it he knows how to read and write. He can ask me and I can give him the address. They don't need you to be their voice ,that is 'disrespectful' not me sharing K.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 29 Aug 2018.

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Fri, 31 Aug 2018 #234
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Krishnamurti:
Selfishness is the essential problem of our life. Conforming and imitation are part of the self, as are competition and the ruthlessness of talent. If the educator in these schools takes this problem to his heart seriously, which I hope he does, then how will he help the student to be selfless? You might say it is a "gift of strange gods", or brush it aside as being impossible; but if you are serious, as one must be, and are totally responsible for the student, how will you set about freeing the mind from this age-old, binding energy, this self which has caused so much sorrow?

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Fri, 31 Aug 2018 #235
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1382 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Let me point out that anyone who doesn't give a citation for quoting K is not only being disrespectful to the rest of us but is also free to change whatever wording they want to make it read however they want. This is especially true of someone who already has a record of changing the words to someone's quote.

When you quote K and don't give a citation it keeps the rest of us, who may be interested, from looking up and reading more about that quote.

..

Goodman B wrote:
You don't have to read it. It is not for you who condemns and judges people in here. Plus if anybody is interested to read the rest of it he knows how to read and write. He can ask me and I can give him the address. They don't need you to be their voice ,that is 'disrespectful' not me sharing K.

..

Goodman B wrote:
Krishnamurti:
Selfishness is the essential problem of our life. Conforming and imitation are part of the self, as are competition and the ruthlessness of talent. If the educator in these schools takes this problem to his heart seriously, which I hope he does, then how will he help the student to be selfless? You might say it is a "gift of strange gods", or brush it aside as being impossible; but if you are serious, as one must be, and are totally responsible for the student, how will you set about freeing the mind from this age-old, binding energy, this self which has caused so much sorrow?

Mister Goodman don't behave like a bad man and give us the address where your citations come from, or is it just another item to provoke Jack .??

In that case you does not stick to the rules for this forum.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 31 Aug 2018.

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Fri, 31 Aug 2018 #236
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Krishnamurt: The thinker is thought.

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Fri, 31 Aug 2018 #237
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Wim Opdam wrote:
the rules for this forum.

Can you adress where this rule is written in here or you just wish to act as an authority like jack ?

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Fri, 31 Aug 2018 #238
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Plus this is a discussion forum. We are not publishing a book . And if one is to find the truth then truth doesn't belong to krishnamurti or you or me. Actually krishnamurti said that there is no K.
That is one of the reasons that no one understands K. Truth is not a blue print which becomes your authority. Do you understand?

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Fri, 31 Aug 2018 #239
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1382 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

the rules for this forum.

Can you adress where this rule is written in here or you just wish to act as an authority like jack ?

You can find all the rules at:
'General Discussion / Forum Rules & Guidelines (Updated) from Dev.

And for the rest; the structure of your replies did stimulate me to write:

Wim Opdam wrote:

Mister Goodman don't behave like a bad man and give us the address where your citations come from, or is it just another item to provoke Jack .??

In that case you does not stick to the rules for this forum.

By your own behaviour of cutting of citates, not providing sources and provoking any one who ask you to behave decent set me to ask you the question asked, no wish for authority or going with your conclusion about Jack's state of mind.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 31 Aug 2018 #240
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1382 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Plus this is a discussion forum. We are not publishing a book . And if one is to find the truth then truth doesn't belong to krishnamurti or you or me. Actually krishnamurti said that there is no K.
That is one of the reasons that no one understands K. Truth is not a blue print which becomes your authority. Do you understand?

you demonstrate an indescribable skill of philosophical reasoning and not to spare your fellow conversants to prove that no one can understand K. that is clear and that is also what strengthen your need of approval or authority.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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