Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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K's superstitions


Displaying posts 151 - 164 of 164 in total
Fri, 20 Jul 2018 #151
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 693 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Sean, your above post, from which I have copied just a part, is brilliant and at the same time it offers to bring people together rather than dividing. Well done.

I really appreciate your comment Jack.

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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 #152
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 693 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think most people here would say, "I have seen a fairy (a small, female, supernatural being)."

I think the question here is what exactly did K see or didn't see? If Krishnamurti were here, I'm sure he'd like us to go into this deeply so I will humbly try to do that now.

K saw a tree. Or did he? Well, he saw a tree but he maybe saw it without the filter of conditioning and thought. He didn't see all the past knowledge of the tree but actually had direct perception of the tree without any separation. I have no idea what this must be like.

K saw a fairy. Or did he? Whatever he saw, it surely wasn't what we imagine to be a fairy. Our projections of what a fairy is are based on our previous knowledge. Fairies don't exist, do they? What exactly did he see? Was he imagining this?

In the tree scenario we perhaps accept that K had some kind of direct contact with reality which is only possible when the mind is absolutely still. This certainly squares with K's extraordinary inward observations of anger, attachment, fear etc.

In the fairy scenario, we perhaps conclude that this man, who at other times seemed more in contact with reality than almost anyone else, had taken leave of his senses and lapsed into wild superstition.

I think that there are many unanswered questions here. But then again, I may be in denial. Who knows?

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Sun, 22 Jul 2018 #153
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 376 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think the question here is what exactly did K see or didn't see?

Of course, we cannot know. K is dead. Anything he saw is gone. It's not only the past, but it's his past, so it is doubly inaccessible.

But you and I can discuss seeing.

Sean Hen wrote:
K saw a tree. Or did he? Well, he saw a tree but he maybe saw it without the filter of conditioning and thought. He didn't see all the past knowledge of the tree but actually had direct perception of the tree without any separation. I have no idea what this must be like.

I'm so glad you brought up trees! I love trees and have looked at them since about the earliest times I can remember.

You are suggesting that K looked at a tree without subject and object, undivided. You think that K had a way of looking, different than the way you and I look. But you admit you don't know what that is, what it is like. Of course, K talked about "perception without a center" and other descriptions. But the description is not the thing.

There's a beautiful tree right outside of my window right now that I love to look at. The morning sunlight edges its leaves. Today it is calm, barely stirring in the slightest breeze.

Now what happens when we look at something? Often we give it a name or description. This is really a way of dismissing it, of not really looking at it. It is saying, "Yeah, yeah, I've seem a million trees and this is another one." So the first thing to notice is that we often don't really look. We glance, name, and dismiss.

If we really look without naming or describing, there's a completely different feeling. It's overwhelming! I cannot take in all the detail of each leaf and branch and light and shadow. How the sky comes through in certain places. The brain cannot hold it all.

There's a certain suspension of thought. And a feeling of deep calmness. Yet there may still be a sense of "I." I feel my body and my eyes and the me that is looking. Yet the looking continues, quietly, silently, just like the stillness of the tree itself.

Then there is noticing further! For a split second there is no self, just the looking. Then there is noticing that there is a self looking. It is shifting back and forth a hundred times or so per second. You have to look really closely to catch this. Thought is suspending and kicking in, in rapid alternation.

But it can also just suspend. Then there is no way to say anything. You cannot say if the self is or is not, because thought has not yet kicked in.

Because the brain wants to grab, wants to claim the experience, it will try to lengthen the duration of the suspension. But this is utterly meaningless. Because it is not something the brain can touch. And being outside of time, it is without duration, because thought which measures duration has not yet begun.

Anyone can look at a tree. But you must really do it!

We cannot know what K saw. But we can see. We can see seeing. And the seer can dissolve. This is not something special, available only to K. Anyone can do it. Everyone does it, if only for split seconds. And yet how many really realize it?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 22 Jul 2018.

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Sun, 22 Jul 2018 #154
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 376 posts in this forum Offline

The point is, "investigate for yourself." K said this again and again.

Why not look at a tree, or whatever, and discover whatever there is to discover?

K didn't say, "I see in a special way. Speculate about that."

He said, "Look into it for yourself!"

He also said to Mary Z that he saw fairies in England. Did he see fireflies and mistake them for fairies? Did something move in his peripheral vision that he mistook? Did he see energies that you and I cannot? Did he imagine fairies?

We cannot know.

But we can examine ourselves. We can see if our feelings and respect for K are giving him the benefit of the doubt in a way he may not deserve. We can see whether we are speculating and assuming rather discovering for ourselves. Yes?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 22 Jul 2018.

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Mon, 23 Jul 2018 #155
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 693 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Why not look at a tree, or whatever, and discover whatever there is to discover?

Yes, I think this is all we can do. Whether it's a tree, our own anger as it rises within us or the face of an old man on the bus sitting opposite us, the challenge is just to observe with a silent mind without thought rushing in to interpret and distort everything. Sounds easy, doesn't it?

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Fri, 27 Jul 2018 #156
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 467 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
He also said to Mary Z that he saw fairies in England. Did he see fireflies and mistake them for fairies? Did something move in his peripheral vision that he mistook? Did he see energies that you and I cannot? Did he imagine fairies?

We cannot know.

I can't shed any light on the question of the circles and other apparent superstitions. But perhaps I can shed some light on the question of fairies.

I researched Ashdown Forest on Google. K was 17 when he and Nitya lived in Ashdown Forest - which is when and where he "saw" the fairies. He was by all accounts a naive boy who had been exposed to visions as a small child in India, unsophisticated for his chronological age.

I myself saw monsters when I was a small child. I don’t deny having had those visions then but that doesn’t mean I believe monsters are real today. Nor would I believe in monsters even if I should have such a vision again. Once as a young adult, I was frightened by a menacing intruder in my room. Even as I was having this vision, I knew logically by the fact that he kept advancing into and retreating out of the room that he was not actually there, just as one knows that a nightmare is not “real”. But, as in a nightmare, the fear itself was real. I do not deny having had this vision either although in fact I have never mentioned it to anyone before.

When K said “Look into it for yourself!", did he mean judge it, evaluate, analyze and adopt a conclusion about it?

Or did he mean observe, be aware, choicelessly of what is going on inwardly as well as outwardly and the relationship between the inner and outer? He exhorted us to look into things like this: “to think positively about something we do not know is to continue the problem,” and many other things which have to do with suffering, relationship, action, fear, and so on.

By K's own admission, he put a stick on a mantelpiece for some weeks and offered it flowers daily. And he observed himself growing attached to it. Well, in this case, he did say that it was an experiment.

There are fashions in law, dress, medicine, social organization, in ideas, and so on. Those fashions are the so-called evolution of society. But truth/actuality, love, compassion are not subject to passing fashion and time. And isn't that what we hunger for?

If a question is unanswerable, can’t one “draw a circle around it” psychologically, realizing that “I don’t know what it means and I have doubts about it”, without coming to a conclusion about it? Can’t one stay with the doubt just as one stays with fear, anger, jealousy, vulnerability, and so on? There no need to pretend the doubt is not there. It doesn't prevent observation or awareness.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Fri, 27 Jul 2018.

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Fri, 27 Jul 2018 #157
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 376 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I can't shed any light on the question of the circles and other apparent superstitions. But perhaps I can shed some light on the question of fairies...

Huguette,

Thank you for your interesting and caring post. I appreciate it.

However, I remain skeptical about a lot of nonsense many people seem to believe. And a careful reading of Mary Z. suggests (even the older) K may not have been immune.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 27 Jul 2018.

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Sat, 28 Jul 2018 #158
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1186 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
If a question is unanswerable, can’t one “draw a circle around it” psychologically, realizing that “I don’t know what it means and I have doubts about it”, without coming to a conclusion about it? Can’t one stay with the doubt just as one stays with fear, anger, jealousy, vulnerability, and so on? There no need to pretend the doubt is not there. It doesn't prevent observation or awareness.

Huguette,

Very accurate wording of the tranquillity of knowing not knowing and staying away from conclusions. Thank youj.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sun, 29 Jul 2018 #159
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 693 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I'm so glad you brought up trees! I love trees and have looked at them since about the earliest times I can remember.

My wife recently read "The Hidden Life of Trees (what they feel, how they communicate)" by Peter Wohlleben. It certainly sounds like a fascinating book. One reviewer said, "If you read this book, I believe that forests will become magical places for you, too." Well, as long as people don't start seeing fairies ......

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Fri, 24 Aug 2018 #160
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 693 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
You are suggesting that K looked at a tree without subject and object, undivided. You think that K had a way of looking, different than the way you and I look. But you admit you don't know what that is, what it is like.

Back to trees. K seemed to be able to look at a tree and see it as if for the first time. You and I may also be able to do this.

idiot ? wrote:
If we really look without naming or describing, there's a completely different feeling. It's overwhelming! I cannot take in all the detail of each leaf and branch and light and shadow. How the sky comes through in certain places. The brain cannot hold it all.

Yes, I think you illustrate my above point here.

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Mon, 17 Sep 2018 #161
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1201 posts in this forum Offline

This quote is from a K talk that Ken posted today on the "me" thing thread.

Perhaps Ken might post that link here on this superstition thread. I don't know how to do that.

Krishnamurti: "So, where there is the cunning pursuit of domination, which is the operation of will, there is the beginning of evil.

You see against that evil we try to protect ourselves. We are ourselves creating evil and yet we draw a circle a diagram round the doorstep of the house to seek protection from evil, and inwardly the serpent of evil is operating.

Keep your house clean. Forget all the mantras; nothing can touch you.

We ask protection of the gods whom we have created. It is really quite fantastic.

All these wars, all the racial hatreds, all the accumulated hatreds which man has been storing up, that must have a collected hatred, a gathered evil. The Hitlers, the Mussolinis, the Stalins, the concentration camps, the Atillas; all that must be stored, must have a body somewhere.

So also, the feeling of “do not kill, be kind, be gentle, be compassionate” – that also must be stored somewhere.

When people try to protect themselves against the one, the evil, they are protecting themselves against the good too, because man has created these two"

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Mon, 17 Sep 2018.

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Mon, 17 Sep 2018 #162
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5216 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Any way I said what krishnamurti said that "Homosextuals create problems for the world."
Nobody can convince me that he didn't say that and I don't have to prove anything to anybody.

No one can convince you of anything because frankly you have shown yourself to be an idiot. And yes you do have to prove that K said that. He didn't. The reason you don't provide citations for what you say K has said is because most of them simply don't exist. You are paraphrasing K to make him conform to your own twisted understanding of what K actually said. That not only makes you a jerk but a dishonest one to boot.

What kind of a person would come onto a Krishnamurti discussion forum and lie and provide phony quotes? May I suggest that you have a serious mental problem?

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Mon, 17 Sep 2018 #163
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5216 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Idiot,do you think that every single word that came out of Krishnamurti's mouth is on the archive?! What you see in the k's archive is not 100 % of what he said for example you can't find that when he said "marriage is a personal prostitution" .

Then if K said it it is your responsibility to provide the citation. Then the discussion ends and we can move on. But the fact is you are paraphrasing K. That means you think K said something, you believe he said something and you put it in your own words. But the fact is you can't give a citation, a reference, that proves he said it.

And no we don't have to take your word for anything. That's not the way discussions work. It K said something and you use it to make a point you MUST give a citation otherwise it's garbage and doesn't mean anything.

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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 #164
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 Myself Only United States 521 posts in this forum Offline

Jack ,you must be married and try to defend marriage. I don't care what you think because you get pleasure of conflict and I have no interest to prove anything to you. But if anybody else (but you and wim who lack understanding and are merely verbal.) Wants I can show them . After all it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that marriage is personal prostitution . She gives you sex and cleans the house and you give her money and shelter. It is a simple contract.
Anyway you are so dependent on K's words that you can't think for yourself. That is why you haven't said a wise thing since I have been in this forum. Always agreeing or opposing what others say.
You have made K's words into authority. Something k spoke against it. To be able to think for oneself one has to let go of what others including Krishnamurti have said.

This post was last updated by Myself Only Tue, 18 Sep 2018.

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