Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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K's superstitions


Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 215 in total
Thu, 28 Jun 2018 #61
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 541 posts in this forum Offline

" In other words, if you are deeply invested in K, does that affect how you feel about some of these matters? " ( #43 idiot?)

When one is deeply affected by K , the man and the teaching .... these are the matters one is least bothered with . Frankly speaking it feels like one is leaving the majestic elephant with all its elegance, grace to pass by and holding on to the least important foot steps ... Sorry the intent is not to point fingers at any body but that is the analogy that came to mind while reading about this blog .
In fact I was searching for some extract posted by Ken ( now it's not seen ) where in K expressing his extreme unhappiness at being called , pointed out so often when people used to address him as ' messiah ' and such other names . Still how he continued relentlessly in his ' work ' giving his entire life and everything for it . How can one not touched by such 'humanness ' and such dedication for that self assigned job of his which had taken away the one important quality which we all enjoy and which he was deprived of in his life . The anonymity and joys of being what we are and leading lives the way we like ....

Major thrust and crux of K teaching is very well brought out by Jack and especially by Huguette in their eloquent posts to a great extent.

This post was last updated by pavani rao Thu, 28 Jun 2018.

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Thu, 28 Jun 2018 #62
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Sir,(Idiot)
I have to repeat. I don't think this circle drawing by K can be explained unless we investigate ourselves to the level K did.

As you know in 1922 he underwent some pains. This went on for 1 year & continued thereafter in milder degrees throughout his life. It is at this point I believe he started telling some entities to leave etc., who were not visible to others.

So how to know what happened to the body with those pains? Did it come to a different level of sensitivity? You say it was some abnormality? The great Buddha who seemed to have spoken something very similar to K also had a headache & a bach ache according to the scriptures. It is said sometimes he would leave in the midst of a discussion telling Sariputtra to continue. So possibility is there that the Buddha also experienced these pains. By the way a similar account is mentioned in Indian scriptures. They call it kundalini.

So I feel you are putting the cart before the horse. I myself thought after reading the biography by Mary Lutyans that I wouldn't have read K if I had read these biographies first. (Gosh, I am glad things didn't happen that way)

So we have to take the journey. You cannot say at the starting point that midway there is a beautiful tall tree or not. For that you must go that distance.

Personally , since I am 40-42 I think Masters are there.I think this eternal dimension K talked about is there although I know very little as to how etc. I think it's a question of the mind coming to different subtler energies.

Personally I wouldn't say drawing circles is superstition unless I walk to the very end of things.200 years ago if we were told of an unmanned craft sending images from Mars we would have dismissed it as wild imagination.

You know Sir, once I met a man who said firmly that he doesn't accept man went to moon!!

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #63
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

You know according to the great Buddha there are all kinds of beings. Spirits, apparitions, etc. Some type called opapathika also. Those are some type that come into being without a male & a female getting together!!

I am not saying to accept this. Accept the Buddha or K. But I feel we cannot answer this unless we perceive life itself directly-what causes life- & see what causes moving life.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #64
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 428 posts in this forum Offline

I'm surprised at the reaction here. It really seems like many people want to look away and not face this. Or else they want to rationalize it, or minimize it.

This is the kind of reaction I would expect from a devout Christian asked about the part of the bible that says, "Blessed is the man who takes your babies and bashes them against the rocks." Yes, it really is in the bible: Psalm 137:9. (It reflects a vengeful point in Jewish history where they were very angry at what their enemies had done.)

K was a bit kooky, in some respects. Some of you are, too, evidently. Lots of people on this planet are convinced about ridiculous things, so welcome to the club.

When I first discovered K decades ago, I was amazed at how free of trappings the teaching was. Just what actually is. And some of what he says is remarkably free of baggage. But there are some interesting oddities if you open your eyes and look honestly. I am not afraid to do so.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 29 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #65
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1220 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
To me, this is just weird stuff K believed, either under the influence of his upbringing, or that he arrived at on his own, or both.

It is reasonable to take care of your practical necessities, like food, shelter, etc. Such activity is, in a way, selfish but also necessary. But creating psychic shelter is, to me, superstition, and unnecessary.

It's your freedom to think as such, but The question stay if It's true.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #66
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1301 posts in this forum Offline

Apart from whether one can actually 'know' the truth about any of this, it is 'comforting' in a way isnt it, to realize that if one is in this other 'realm' of reality, and one comes up against evil or harmful spirits or forces,... that all that's really needed for 'protection' is a simple, drawn, circle! ;)

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #67
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5294 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
It seems to me that you’re doing the same thing as idiot by focusing on another's behaviour, as he/she is doing

I don't care what it seems like to you. I wasn't talking to you. I am asking idiot questions about his motives and conclusions. He, on the other hand, is making positive statements about someone based largely on his, idiot's, own conditioning which distorts his perception and makes one question his motives. I am questioning his objectivity and the appropriateness of his going after K instead of trying to understand what K pointed out. K, himself, said many times that he, the man, is not important only what he has pointed out. Let's stick with that and not start and old woman's rumor mill here on Kinfonet.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #68
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5294 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I'm surprised at the reaction here. It really seems like many people want to look away and not face this. Or else they want to rationalize it, or minimize it.

Maybe it's because the rest of us may not have the petty mind required to look at this?

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #69
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 475 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It really seems like many people want to look away and not face this. Or else they want to rationalize it, or minimize it.

This is the kind of reaction I would expect from a devout Christian

in the context of this forum, in the context of hungering for the truth about the meaning of life - which is essentially what the forum is about, isn't it? - have you asked yourself why you care about what many people want to look at? Have you asked yourself why you have expectations of others?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Fri, 29 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #70
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 475 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I don't care what it seems like to you. I wasn't talking to you. I am asking idiot questions about his motives and conclusions. He, on the other hand, is making positive statements about someone based largely on his, idiot's, own conditioning which distorts his perception and makes one question his motives. I am questioning his objectivity and the appropriateness of his going after K instead of trying to understand what K pointed out.

Of course you don't have to care about how things seem to me. But don't you want to understand what K pointed to --- which is the necessity to understand oneself, one's own mind? Isn't that what he pointed out?

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #71
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Apart from whether one can actually 'know' the truth about any of this, it is 'comforting' in a way isnt it, to realize that if one is in this other 'realm' of reality, and one comes up against evil or harmful spirits or forces,... that all that's really needed for 'protection' is a simple, drawn, circle! ;)

There can be some reason for this. K said he speaks to the tiger consciousness etc. Also walking with Mrs.Zimballist he said once that someone started coming behind & he said firmly to stay where it was.

So I think he had been drawing circles & talking to the consciousness of these beings & saying not to enter it.

For God's sake, I don't know this level of things. Just attempted some explanation.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #72
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I'm surprised at the reaction here. It really seems like many people want to look away and not face this.

Not reaction. We came up with responses.

How to face this? You are trying to pre judge the behaviour of someone who was saying the mind can undergo radical transformation without investigating what that transformation is.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #73
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5294 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Not reaction. We came up with responses.

How to face this? You are trying to pre judge the behaviour of someone who was saying the mind can undergo radical transformation without investigating what that transformation is.

Excellent response and very complete. Thank you.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #74
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 428 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
in the context of this forum, in the context of hungering for the truth about the meaning of life - which is essentially what the forum is about, isn't it?

No, sir, this forum is about Krishnamurti. Someone interested in the truth or the meaning of life from the perspective of Socrates or Kant would probably do well to look elsewhere. We're here to discuss K. That's what I have been doing: discussing some of K's actions and if and how they relate to his teachings.

Did K discuss "hungering for the truth about the meaning of life?"

He discussed the futility of seeking, another word for hungering.

He discussed how truth is inclusion not exclusion. And how truth is seeing the true in the true and the false in the true, the true in the false and false in the false. Those are very important and actually relevant. While some may want to exclude some of his actions or statements from discussion, such exclusion is avoidance of the truth.

He discussed how life is it's own meaning, how living is meaning itself.

Most importantly, he talked about awareness outside of time, where there is no perception from a center, where the sacred, the actual is.

But he also talked about drawing circles. Discussing that is to look at something in his life, something that to me is quite silly. K had no difficulty dismissing nonsense others believed in. If Joe Nobody believed in drawing protection circles, many people here would probably dismiss it as nonsense. But because we're talking about K, there is a great rushing to his defense.

Huguette . wrote:

have you asked yourself why you care about what many people want to look at?

Have you asked yourself why you assume that I care? I don't. I am here to have conversation, to interact, to look together with others. If that is impossible, I have no problem with going away for a while. I bear no grudge. But it is a wonderful thing when we can explore together. That is dialogue. At its best, it can lead to understanding, insight, discovery.

Huguette . wrote:

Have you asked yourself why you have expectations of others?

Have you asked yourself why you assume that I do? While some here do in fact exhibit patterns, I am always open to them radically transforming, or even changing a little.

I don't expect anything. But I am surprised because the response is so contrary to K. K taught to completely - yes, completely - discard belief. Apparently, many here nod when K says that. Until it is a belief like drawing protection circles. Wait a minute! K did that. Maybe we can't discard it.

But I say, discard belief! It only colors and distorts what is.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 29 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #75
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 475 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Have you asked yourself why you have expectations of others?
idiot ? wrote:
Have you asked yourself why you assume that I do?

I understood it from this:

idiot ? wrote:
This is the kind of reaction I would expect from a devout Christian

Is this not expressing an expectation? Isn't it important to see one's own mindset or expectations and to find out how to respond to the mindset or expectations of others honestly but without divisiveness? Aren't we together in facing these things?


idiot ? wrote:
No, sir, this forum is about Krishnamurti. Someone interested in the truth or the meaning of life from the perspective of Socrates or Kant would probably do well to look elsewhere. We're here to discuss K.

That’s interesting. It's not MY understanding of what this forum is about. It’s certainly not why I’m here. As far as I’m concerned, this forum is not about K but about life itself. I do not “hunger” to know what the meaning of life is according to Socrates or Kant. What is the point of knowing what Socrates and Kant thought about the meaning of life if I despair over its meaninglessness?

Now that this is cleared up, I also have no problem with going away. You are not here to talk over the human condition in the way that friends talk things over, but to discuss K. My mistake.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Fri, 29 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #76
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1301 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
For God's sake, I don't know this level of things.

True, same here. Castaneda felt no compunction in going into all this in his books about the Yaqui Indian, Don Juan. K. obviously thought it would be a distraction from his message to dwell on any of it. But still in his remarks to others and Mary Z. he let it be known that there was 'something'.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #77
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 475 posts in this forum Offline

I forgot, I meant to post the following quote. I don't expect it to change anything, but it's meaningful to ME.

[Saanen 1981, Q&A #3, 5th question: “Who are you?”]:
Is that an important question? Or would you say, ‘Who am I’ – not who you are, who am I? And if I tell you who I am, what does it matter. It would be out of curiosity, wouldn’t it? It is like reading a menu at the window, you have to go into the restaurant and eat food. But merely standing outside and reading the menu won’t satisfy your hunger. So, to tell you who I am is really quite meaningless.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #78
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 428 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
You are trying to pre judge the behaviour of someone who was saying the mind can undergo radical transformation without investigating what that transformation is.

Why assume that idiot has made no investigation? The implication in what you are saying is that you have investigated radical transformation and that you have undergone radical transformation. Is this what you are saying?

The further implication is that I couldn't possibly be saying the kinds of things I have been saying had I investigated radical transformation. Is that also what you are saying?

Now is transformation something that someone can claim ownership of? Can someone be transformed and say it's happened, it's done? Or is it quite free of an individual self that could make any claims for it? To me, saying Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe transformed or idiot transformed is ridiculous. Right now, free of you and me, the possibility of transformation is.

Is transformation an event that happened or will happen after which I won't be the same? Or is transformation not an event at all? Is it moment to moment? Or is it outside of time altogether, time being a process of thought?

Although the word "transformation" implies change, which implies time, in reality it is something quite beyond that, quite beyond words, which are thoughts, which is time.

Nothing to do with you and me. Nothing to do with an event, or an accomplishment, or an experience. Can this really be investigated, or is that the mind fooling itself, trying to grab what it cannot? It cannot be investigated in the sense of the mind getting a handle on it. The mind will only hold an image, a description.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #79
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 428 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette quoted K:
[Saanen 1981, Q&A #3, 5th question: “Who are you?”]:
Is that an important question? Or would you say, ‘Who am I’ – not who you are, who am I? And if I tell you who I am, what does it matter. It would be out of curiosity, wouldn’t it? It is like reading a menu at the window, you have to go into the restaurant and eat food. But merely standing outside and reading the menu won’t satisfy your hunger. So, to tell you who I am is really quite meaningless.

Yes, again and again K said the speaker is unimportant. But then he also went and had people, like Mary Zimbalist, write biographies.

Is the man and what the man said something that can be separated?

Reading the menu won't satisfy your hunger. But eating the food won't tell you everything about the menu. You can read the menu and eat the food. It doesn't have to be either/or.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 29 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #80
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 428 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Castaneda felt no compunction in going into all this in his books about the Yaqui Indian, Don Juan. K. obviously thought it would be a distraction from his message to dwell on any of it. But still in his remarks to others and Mary Z. he let it be known that there was 'something'.

Carlos Castaneda was a liar, a manipulator of humans, a user of his haram of women both sexually and otherwise, a cult leader who got his followers to "erase their past" including all family ties, a con artist who's "non-fiction" books are complete fictions...

In the Mary Z book, K seems to be affirming the existence of good and bad entities like Castaneda described, but he is not endorsing Castaneda. K never endorsed anyone! And if he knew anything about Castaneda he would have condemned him. K condemned Rajneesh who was an angel compared to Castaneda. (No, I'm not a fan of Osho/Rajneesh either.)

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 29 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #81
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1301 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
but he is not endorsing Castaneda. K never endorsed anyone!

Who said anything about "endorsing"? I said Castaneda wrote about stuff like this, I didn't say whether it was anything other than 'made up'. I don't know. And I don't really care. Whether 'Christ' walked on water, or changed water into wine, or raised the dead, or rose from the dead himself, I don't know. And I don't really care. What was of interest was the message of 'Love'. Same for me with K., the message of 'Love'.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #82
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 428 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Krishnamurti also claims to have seen fairies...

Fascinating.

I saw a fairy once.

But it was Disneyland and I'm pretty sure Tinkerbell was really a young woman.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 29 Jun 2018.

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Fri, 29 Jun 2018 #83
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

<assume that idiot has made no investigation? The implication in what you are saying is that you have investigated radical transformation and that you have undergone radical transformation. Is this what you are saying?

The further implication is that I couldn't possibly be saying the kinds of things I have been saying had I investigated radical transformation. Is that also what you are saying?

Is your heart full of love & compassion? Are you living in ecstasy & bliss?

I have none of those. That is why I am saying I cannot comment on K's actions such as drawing circles.

Even if you say your heart is full of love & compassion affirm these are meaningless actions my answer would be I cannot comment till I do my homework.

Sir , I am sure you have investigated. Years ago I remember reading very intelligent posts by you. But have we walked to the very end of things? For example K says about having insight into energy too that makes everything .I doubt whether all that is clear to us. At least No, not to me.

Sir, is not not knowing that we do not know & taking up a position a belief?

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Sat, 30 Jun 2018 #84
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 428 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Are you living in ecstasy & bliss?

Not when I waste too much time on the internet. ;)

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe, I appreciate what you are saying. If I understand correctly, you are saying K's teaching is profound and sacred. So cut him a break. Maybe he had sensitivity to real things and we cannot understand them at our level. (Please correct me if I am putting words in your mouth.)

It is possible. But it is also possible, and to me more likely, that he perceived things that were largely imaginary. Wouldn't we question seeing fairies, for example, in anyone else? So I'm saying let's be fair and question them in K, too.

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Sir, is not not knowing that we do not know & taking up a position a belief?

It is true that we can fool ourselves into believing we know when we really do not. It is true that not knowing is the way to begin real investigation. So thank you. I again appreciate what you are saying.

But!!!

Come on! There are no fairies and lots of other nonsense. If a fairy comes and taps me on the shoulder and says, "Hello, idiot!" Well, I'll rush right back here and let you all know.

Meanwhile, when I see silliness, I won't deny it, just because it happens to come from K.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 30 Jun 2018.

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Sat, 30 Jun 2018 #85
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
If I understand correctly, you are saying K's teaching is profound and sacred. So cut him a break. Maybe he had sensitivity to real things and we cannot understand them at our level

Yes. I think he talked facts. After reading his teachings for several deacades I am of the view that he was among the two greatest humanity produced. Buddha & him.You needn't accept my view.

I am not saying cut him a break. But I am saying unless we make the journey we cannot comment on things that are perceived with increased sensitivity.(due to the inward journey)

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Sat, 30 Jun 2018 #86
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Wouldn't we question seeing fairies, for example, in anyone else?

Did he call some human being a fairy?

If you meant that I think it can be just a figure of speech. Sometimes he just exclaimed, ' Oh, God' etc.

idiot ? wrote:
There are no fairies and lots of other nonsense. If a fairy comes and taps me on the shoulder and says, "Hello, idiot!" Well, I'll rush right back here and let you all know.

Well how to answer that? Supposing I say yes there are, it's no proof to you.Only I play into your hands & you would be saying I am having illusions.

So I think each person has to make such discoveries for him/herself & remain mum!

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Sat, 30 Jun 2018 #87
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 428 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Did he call some human being a fairy?

No! That's an offensive term for a gay male. He didn't say that. And we're not using the word in that way. A fairy is a small, magical female.

See post #92 where Ken quotes Mary Z describing how K saw them in Ashdown Forest.

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Sat, 30 Jun 2018 #88
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5294 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Whether 'Christ' walked on water, or changed water into wine, or raised the dead, or rose from the dead himself, I don't know. And I don't really care. What was of interest was the message of 'Love'. Same for me with K., the message of 'Love'.

Or whether Christ existed at all. Many biblical scholars doubt he even existed since there is not one shred of contemporary evidence that he did. No contemporary writer mentioned him, no census by the Romans mentioned him or his family. It is more likely "Christ" was a figment of the imagination of later writers writing some two or three hundreds years after the supposed life of Christ.

I know this is somewhat off the point, if there is still a point to this thread.

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Sat, 30 Jun 2018 #89
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 428 posts in this forum Offline

Sometimes I think the self, idiot, doesn't exist.

Then I realize it's only that the motion sensors in the airport bathroom aren't working.

Krishnamurti, Public Talk 3, Rajghat, India, 22 November 1985

All right, sir. I have got lots of jokes, I can't begin.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 30 Jun 2018.

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Sun, 01 Jul 2018 #90
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 711 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Was K really kind of whacky when it came to the supernatural? It sure seems so to me.

I have to admit that I have found this thread interesting. I should also say that I am not so fond of the word "whacky". To my mind, it suggests that anyone who strays across the clearly marked boundaries of normality is rather strange to say the least.

I'm sure that almost all of us who come here would say that Krishnamurti was a man who certainly knew what he was talking about. If you listen to him talking about, say anger, you can't help thinking that not only does he know whay he's talking about but he seems to have used razor sharp observation to reach a level of understanding that is practically unique. Given this, it would appear very odd that he should be in any way superstisious. Did Krishnamurti actually have direct experience of certain things that are simply beyond our understanding? Perhaps even raising this question could leave me open to being described as a bit "whacky".

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