Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Security, certainty, naming....teacher, pupil etc


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Thu, 03 May 2018 #1
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

I am deadly interested in today's quote, so we may or not see what there is in it.

... what happens if you don't term, if you don't give a name to an experience? If you are not naming the various sensations, if you have no background, where is the 'you'? That is, when it is not named, the feeling or the experience withers away, it has no continuity. Experiment with yourself, and you will see.

If you have a very strong feeling of nationalism, what happens? You give it a name, the thought arises of idealism, love, 'my country; that is, you term it and thereby give it a continuity. It is very difficult not to term it, because the process of naming a feeling is so automatic, so instantaneous.

But suppose you do not name a feeling, what happens to that feeling? Surely, the record-keeper cannot identify himself with that feeling. He does not give it substance, he does not give it strength, he does not give it vitality. Therefore, it withers away.

The next time you are feeling the sensation which you term irritation, don't give it a name. Don't say, 'I am irritated', don't term it, and see what happens. You will discover an extraordinary thing happening.
The mind is bewildered, because the mind dislikes to be in a state of uncertainty. Then bewilderment becomes more important than the feeling, and the feeling is forgotten and bewilderment remains. But the mind does not like to be bewildered, puzzled; therefore, it demands security, and it seeks security, certainty, in the record, in memory, thereby strengthening the record-keeper.

It is really quite fascinating, if you observe the process of your own consciousness. But you cannot learn all this in a book. No book can teach it, and what a book teaches is not worthwhile. You can only repeat what a book teaches; but if you experiment and discover for yourself, then you are both the teacher and the pupil, and you no longer want the gurus, the books, and all the rest of it. Then you know how to tackle the problem, any problem that arises, for yourself, because you are both the teacher and the pupil, you know the ways of the working of your own consciousness. You discover that in not terming a sensation, in not giving it a name, that feeling, that sensation comes to an end.

Dan ...........

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #2
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
But the mind does not like to be bewildered, puzzled; therefore, it demands security, and it seeks security, certainty, in the record, in memory, thereby strengthening the record-keeper.

If I may say something about that, in my view we have here some of the core of our analytical program, trivially called thought.

this program as I see it should be concerned with practical matters only, all of them. in organising the practicality of life the program is loaded with very specific "demands" in order to function...

desire makes it start its work, without it as a child well I think we would not survive, something is there pushing us into life, to embrace it through desires, my desires .

it is loaded with adds-on like the one to make things right, not as an absolute but as much as possible, it needs too to reach a conclusion from which it is going to function, it is recorded of course, all this like desire, the need to make it right, in order to protect the body for example, the certainty etc all this are outcome of one program, which is functioning on its own volition,because it is a machine, it is computerised and later will make computers sort of photocopying itself , reproducing itself ..

and k brings here the record keeper, the database which is both the analytical program itself, which is calculating, comparing, organising, analysing etc for the future even if it is a micro second ahead it is not the present it is the future, and its effects ,plans , projects ,satisfying desires etc up to a so complex net of data that one cannot describe it...nor would a computer in my view, because it is far too subtle for a human machine even tif it is the most elaborate and complex..

Daniel Paul. wrote:
The mind is bewildered, because the mind dislikes to be in a state of uncertainty.

what I understand here is this: , well yes and no that it dislike to be in a state of uncertainty, what happens here in my view is that in such case mentioned by k, the analyser cannot analyse because there is nothing recorded in memory to be analysed so before to introduce a notion of like/dislike, what takes place is that thought cannot do its job in such circumstances..it needs to look at the past to analyse..for the future..where it will always meet physical death..

all this is not understood by what we have left as capacities in our brains-minds, because it is beyond the reach of the superficial mind acting as a dictator over the brain ,exactly like it does on the planet ,it is the same movement...the planet dictatorship birth takes root in our deficient brain..

If by luck or coincidence or whatever, I decide , I learn , to leave this bewilderment, which for me is dukkha, is a pain , a suffering,because the thinking program must work and here it cannot work yet still insist to do so,if I do so it then produce one of its MAIN MISTAKE which is to try to keep working when it cannot...when it shall not in fact...

thought must not invade some fields and when it does it as it will it is receiving a signal which is not perceived any more apart from exception, this signal will grow and grow up to reach unbearable pain..whether conscious, whether not conscious,I may be in heavy pain deeply and not be aware of it...having a ha ha ha life apparently

when "I" meet the unknown ,I, thought,the analyser can not do anything about it; but it is going to try out of ignorance , thought must learn to stop working-analysing in such moment, exactly like it must when meeting suffering, sorrow, pain, discontentment, fear etc

if it does not do that all the adds-on which are there to make thought work will keep pushing with a fantastic energy to keep working in fields where it is absolutely useless at the best and a mortal danger for the worse ...all the energy is now used to try to do so..but it cannot... this create a form of pain which is unbearable, on one hand there is a program pushing the harder it can and on the other hand nothing is happening at all..

Thought have only one way out here: to stop itself voluntarily and consciously...suffering as a catalyst is now there to help..this cannot be a goal as far as I know..

it is very simple as such , and when thought does not have a single clue in such matter, then it is caught in a catch22 ...some say that karma means that but I do not know..

cheerio

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 03 May 2018.

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Fri, 04 May 2018 #3
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
what happens if you don't term, if you don't give a name to an experience? If you are not naming the various sensations, if you have no background, where is the 'you'? That is, when it is not named, the feeling or the experience withers away, it has no continuity. Experiment with yourself, and you will see.

If you have a very strong feeling of nationalism, what happens? You give it a name, the thought arises of idealism, love, 'my country; that is, you term it and thereby give it a continuity. It is very difficult not to term it, because the process of naming a feeling is so automatic, so instantaneous.

Naming means memory...processing of information by thought , analysing etc

one always go back to that is not it, thought or not thought....was it one meaning of "to be or not to be?"
..

thought is mechanical, is a calculator, gives birth to pain...to wars ,destruction, mass crimes, and machines..

between wars, destruction, crimes , tools...what are the tree wrong choices ?

thought's program as I see it contains out of many one vital necessary adds-on which makes choices in order reject or keep propositions made up by the analyser in practical matters ...I keep that one, I reject that one then I organise a classification of techniques, ways of doing this or that etc this creates a hierarchy which is only relative..but already there one can fight for his own hierarchy , the maggots is already in the fruit...the wrong turn is already there in the absence of something which is not of thought ...

this can be said only afterwards some experiments, insights, seeing, vision in that matter , so it means that one had been wrong first then something took place to solve some of it.

Suffering as a catalyst .

This adds-on useful in practical fields , vital even as if it was not for it we could not make any practical choice so decision so would not survive, so it seems to be but ???

this adds-on in the absence of any other capacity is now invading the mental fields, the fields where we actually meet others...

and is going to do the exact same with people , as it does with ideas, with practicality , here the wrong tun is easier to perceive..

the analyser , which is a relative ,to itself, tool-calculator etc, is not aware that it is a tool nor that it is relative so that its only referent is ...itself, that only is already a disaster. Out of many disasters its view has now become absolute...

it is now going to classify-eliminate people from its point of view as the supreme "commander" , I can use that one ,this one I kill..etc

from there anyone can see where it leads....

this is where the illusion of competition takes root....and this is not the end because this is where suicide takes root too..suicide which is the impossible attempt to escape from one's suffering as everyone does not know..

well that is a very serious glitch in our brain..well what is left of it..

Dan ...........

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Sat, 05 May 2018 #4
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
... what happens if you don't term, if you don't give a name to an experience? If you are not naming the various sensations, if you have no background, where is the 'you'? That is, when it is not named, the feeling or the experience withers away, it has no continuity. Experiment with yourself, and you will see.

Oh, yes. this is very interesting.

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #5
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
. what happens if you don't term, if you don't give a name to an experience? If you are not naming the various sensations, if you have no background, where is the 'you'? That is, when it is not named, the feeling or the experience withers away, it has no continuity. Experiment with yourself, and you will see.

If you have a very strong feeling of nationalism, what happens? You give it a name, the thought arises of idealism, love, 'my country; that is, you term it and thereby give it a continuity. It is very difficult not to term it, because the process of naming a feeling is so automatic, so instantaneous.

Well our past and present sort of culture likes naming, especially since thought is all powerful from birth to death..as a child I perfectly remember not naming at all many things, objects, trees , animals etc then so called education , a very heavy formatting in fact, a shaping, then education forces one into that direction, may be this is when I stopped learning at school like many who somehow feel that it is wrong, I was 10, yet found with what they call a very good IQ..as a matter of fact may be was I using this IQ properly, let me smile at this possibility..

I still find that we have too many words for such little depth we have to express.Thought is caught in its own nets can we say. Not aware of itself, not aware of the nets, not aware that the nets are its ones.

So again k brings us into thought's program's matters, ways of functioning etc

it is always about that is not it, whether it is about fear, anxiety, depression, terror, running away, war, money,legal mass crimes called wars, organises poverty, organises crimes, organises unemployment, torture, machines, so called science , false religion( is there true religion???) discontentment, sorrow, pain, suffering .....ad libitum..

k says that not naming brings something else into the situation , the feeling has no continuity, it withers away..well it seems so yes..

then it goes about security etc..

this all security business seems huge...

our ways to search for physical and mental security is to introduce so called competition into our ways of not living together so, this implies fighting, eliminating,violence stealing, wars etc..at the end of the day we search for physical-mental security in perfectly insecure ways of organising "society" ...that is nuts...perfectly nuts.

some, the insane thieves leading us, have persuaded us that this is how things are...first they go mad insane then they excuse themselves because the bird eats the worm...then the masses follow that...

well even if this is a fact we won't go far ...

I was struck some time ago by what may be an insight, a vision, so not personal then, struck by what was there which was about: there is not such thing as survival at any cost, well it seems that way at some level of course, but behind there would be much more , another(s) main cause(s) creating such possible illusion of surviving as THE main if not only goal of all living things ..

that would not be a fact but an illusion...

what could there be behind that specific curtain ?
Well what if all this is just meant to function the proper way, as it is meant to...

Our brains clearly now dysfunction...so our societies too...so our life too..

If in a glance of a few second only I may actually see , somehow, most of the global picture of my own life, of the terrible state of our societies ( well one can be blind if one wished to the horror we create), of the fact that I am entirely lost etc..then immediately one goes back to k statement that we only have thought to start with ...

but usually nothing really deep takes place, and it is business as usual..no change but getting older, death , next !!

All this is suffering...pain, sorrow ,discontentment, frustration, meaningless, yet I may find solace in various outer ways in possession ,use of machines or in illusory religious or psychological methods..

sounds like a big huge wall....around me.

I crave for many things ,want to change the entire world, some actually does it their ways, they call themselves elites, to be an elite you just need plenty money and need to be cruel...their way is war, the way of the people is war too, because as soon as you bring competition war is there..

We are told that there is nothing else..the universe is empty, there is no origin says our actual fake science..etc of course.

anyone using a simple logic can see that there is necessarily an origin which is not born, always was so always will be..but as it is unknown, thought cannot analyse it so decides that it is not..

My question is : how long will we keep, as a species, resisting living suffering by attempting to run away from that sensation , as it well may be the only key the key ?? it could be the only one to start with....especially if the observer is the observed...as this means that there is no me on one hand and suffering on the other hand , this would mean that thought is attempting to act on something which does not exist..

k: pain itself destroys pain.Suffering itself frees man from suffering

Dan ...........

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #6
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Then again, today's quote comes to our rescue.

To understand the problem requires a mind that is not seeking a result, an answer. If you will observe your own mind, you will see what is happening. If you have a problem you want some one to tell you what to do; so your emphasis is on the solution and not on the understanding of the problem.

In answering this question we are concerned with the problem and not with the answer. If you go away disappointed because your question is not answered, it is your fault, because there is no answer to life. Life has no answer. Life has only one thing, one problem - which is, living. The man who lives totally, completely, every minute without choice, neither accepting nor rejecting the thing as it is, such a man is not seeking an answer, he is not asking what the purpose of life is, nor is he seeking a way out of life. But that requires great insight into oneself. Without self-knowledge, merely to seek an answer has no meaning at all, because the answer will be what is most satisfactory, what is gratifying. That is what most of us want; we want to be gratified, we want to find a safe place, a heaven where there will be no disturbance. But as long as we seek, life will be disturbed.

Dan ...........

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #7
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

There is no answer indeed... when everything that emerges is lived,without it being altered by the mental, then there is no question ...

This post was last updated by richard viillar Mon, 07 May 2018.

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #8
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
There is no answer indeed... when everything that emerges is lived,without it being altered by the mental, then there is no question ...

Hello Richard, yes this is it, then all problems are potentially perceived , lived and solved..thought being then what it is, the tool to out all that is perceived into practice, I mean what is perceived beyond thought ...

Of course our own state of mind plus the insane outer word which is just the outcome of our state of mind do not help, yet it necessarily is the same approach with all that than it is with any problem,like suffering etc

suffering ,rather all what lies behind it may be the master door to .....................

cheerio

Dan ...........

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #9
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
suffering ,rather all what lies behind it may be the master door to ....

Yes it seems it is.. and also its aspect of sensation...

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #10
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Je le dis en français.. en fait, depuis que j'ai "levé le lièvre" la sensation derrière la "souffrance", cela n'est plus vu ni nommé ainsi... c'est de l'ordre de la sensation... pas facile à décrire...

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #11
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
Je le dis en français.. en fait, depuis que j'ai "levé le lièvre" la sensation derrière la "souffrance", cela n'est plus vu ni nommé ainsi... c'est de l'ordre de la sensation... pas facile à décrire...

oui tout à fait..., ni vue ni nommée ainsi..on le fait ici pour des raisons de facilité apparente en ce qui me concerne. peut être faudrait il le dire autrement..

pas facile comme tu dis ...on y travaille ;-)

Dan ...........

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #12
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Après, le fait est que le mental reste à l'oeuvre..

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #13
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Au Quotidien je veux dire.. car son utilité est nécessaire.. mais il empiète..

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #14
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
Après, le fait est que le mental reste à l’œuvre..

richard viillar wrote:
Au Quotidien je veux dire.. car son utilité est nécessaire.. mais il empiète..

Oui, et cet empiétement qui ne doit pas être est signalé comme une erreur...

cela me rappelle dans ces moments comment dire de contentement parfait, et bien à un certain point et jusqu' à un certain moment le mental voit nettement une partie de ce qui se passe, j'ai aussi vu se produire la non mémorisation d'une bonne demi journée dans une grande ville, avec une circulation énorme et des gens partout...dans les mêmes conditions

je me dois de supposer que le mental faisait donc son travail là encore bien sur, sans empiéter..

chaque capacité a donc sa juste place , je sais que cela sonne comme une évidence énorme et cependant.....

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Mon, 07 May 2018.

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Mon, 07 May 2018 #15
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
je me dois de supposer que le mental faisait donc son travail là encore bien sur, sans empiéter..

Voilà.. oui Ça se produit ainsi.

Ce que je veux dire quand je dit que le fait est que notre quotidien est jalonné d'empiètements.. et donc.. évidemment les questions émergent.. et notamment: comment faire avec cet empietement...? ;-)

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Tue, 08 May 2018 #16
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

je me dois de supposer que le mental faisait donc son travail là encore bien sur, sans empiéter..

Voilà.. oui Ça se produit ainsi.

Ce que je veux dire quand je dit que le fait est que notre quotidien est jalonné d’empiétements.. et donc.. évidemment les questions émergent.. et notamment: comment faire avec cet empiétement...? ;-)

Avant tout j’amène une partie du quote du jours pour aider encore une fois parce que nous sommes sur un site dédié à k.

K: If you see a poisonous snake, you have moved away from it. You are not battling against it.

Dan: It means that you already knows it..memory is there active and helping..experience is helping!

k: Transformation is the creating of the new, without any conditioning whatsoever, i.e., to meet each new problem anew.

Sur ce genre de sujets, de terrain très mouvant, on va forcément rencontrer une sorte d’expérience passée accomplie et factuelle qui va alors être valable jusqu’à une limite, dont une partie peut être utilisée dans le présent, ne pas oublier que souvent k parle de repartir de zéro (start afresh) ....une énorme contradiction.. pour moi elle est apparente seulement mais ce serait trop fastidieux et complexe d'essayer d'expliquer cela..

Un petit mot quand même, si je prends k à la lettre à chaque fois que je vois un serpent( problème à résoudre) je dois oublier que je sais qu'il est dangereux et tout recommencer...on peut aussi déduire cela des mots de k, personnellement je trouve cela dangereux comme formule .

Cet empiétement de la pensée , que j’appelle aussi des fois processus analytique a conclusion binaire ,je veux/je veux pas, ou oui/non , ouf c'est long mais il faudrait être aussi long en fait, cet empiétement vu comme tel dit une certaine expérience, amène un symptôme assez précis disons d'erreur dit aussi une certaine expérience...si je recommence à zéro comme suggère k des fois, je ne sais plus rien de cela ...
je n'insiste pas plus sur ce point et le garde juste en mémoire..

donc j'ai appris, tu as appris, ils ont appris , que cet usage de la pensée qui empiète sur des sujets ou il n'a pas sa place, là encore dixit une ou des expériences produit une sorte de douleur, de gêne, de souffrance, etc à des degrés variables..

je, tu ,ils savent cela..

comment faire avec cet empiétement poses tu comme question ?

je me propose de repartir comme cela, mais un peu plus tard..car j'ai des trucs à faire...

ciao !!

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 08 May 2018.

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Thu, 10 May 2018 #17
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Now back to what we were talking about with Richard, it was about thought as a program, an analytical program, encroaching upon fields where it has no capacity at all.

A few quick words about this program as we have seen it, it divides itself from the environment for obvious vital reasons, like for the body to be able to move within the earth environment , and for what is not physical matters to be able to create and analyser, a thinker, analysing whatever practical matters it needs or want in order to finds practical ways to physically survive properly in good conditions ...

As we have so far no more program at work, this program will try to deal with subjects like death, suffering, fear, anxiety, violence, conflict, etc etc, where it had been seen personally and in the talk we had with Richard and some that thought has no capacity in the late matters like suffering and so on..

k confirms that by mentioning that this is all what we have to start with.

And it seems to me that right there nothing or nothing different is happening at all..thought has nothing to say about itself as it does not even know about itself..it knows about what it wants and what it does not want, OK fine that is a start..

50 years have past then what ? nothing is happening .Yet I obviously am closer to death.

I have analysed all what I could analyse and all is more or less the same and possibly even worse as the postponing of the inevitable end is fading away ..

what do I mean by analysing ??

There is a I in charge caught between vital necessities to organise survival, the way we organised that which is by all fighting each other to do so, so we are all in conflict and at war because we would have a naughty possible ancestor which was a very naughty boy in the trees somewhere in Africa, this dangerous ancestor like us was stealing ,organising wars, torturing, destroying, creating money etc

we have the proof of all that: the bird is eating the worm...

this is as far as we have gone mentally...

so we believe, believing means i don't know, we believe that by fighting the best will win and so that everything will be so perfect..

if so we have to close this site, please Mr Dev Singh you must think about that.

Wait a minute Dev, what if that all this is pure nonsense ??

what if competition between human is 100% wrong ?

What if this is due to a malfunction of our brains?

What if competition being a misuse of one of our analytical capacity adds on , only useful in comparing ideas, theories, potentiality etc in practical fields ONLY and nowhere else , like techniques x, y or z, where elimination that we call competition when it come to us , where elimination process is now at work in order to find out what seems to be the not good enough and keep what seems to be fine to make a conclusion and work on it from there...then it may work and yet even in practical fields some conclusion will not work and only experiment will tell for sure.

if the myth of the best and competition was true, then we would have a perfect life and society..when it is absolutely false..and we stick to our machines to keep saying: we are right look at the machines!! of course never ever looking at all our crimes committed all over the world, including as I am talking now how many will die because of democracy...when one has opened many real history books so not the false one we are told at school and university or in main media etc and have seen what was democracy in Athene , 6% were voting and only the richest were leading in fact, workers were slaves, brutal sex was used to mentally control people etc one of their first action was to force a sort of krishnamurti of the time, Socrates , to kill himself..saying a few weeks after: we should not have done that ...

So the entire planet is moaning about life when we never had so much goods for us...

does it ring any bell ?

I do not think so apart from exceptions ..

Dan ...........

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Thu, 10 May 2018 #18
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

So I am lost, I suffer, I don't understand, I read many books, I listened to many people, I am in sorrow, I fear the future , I hate my job if I have one, etc

and what if for once I see that in fact I am defeated, this is my reality, I am defeated, I do not understand why but for once I do not care about understanding and just stay with that because I am wrecked , exhausted, tired, fed up, that is my actuality...

and there is nothing else to it.. no hope, no search, ..nothing but my defeat, without reaching the point to think about killing myself as it is in such moment that it may happen...the last attempt to escape from suffering..well I was there this is how I know that ...

is this all what we have to start with ?

well this is where something different, unexpected took place as "it" wished and now wishes...entirely unpredictable it is in that field...

Dan ...........

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Thu, 10 May 2018 #19
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
is this all what we have to start with ?

Yes i think it is the starting point... make a statement and not escape... to be able to see

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Thu, 10 May 2018 #20
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

is this all what we have to start with ? ( and there is nothing else to it.. no hope, no search, ..nothing but my defeat, without reaching the point to think about killing myself as it is in such moment that it may happen...the last attempt to escape from suffering..well I was there this is how I know that ... )

Yes i think it is the starting point... make a statement and not escape... to be able to see

Good morning campers...and Richard ..

agreed, we may say here that we know that by experiences, many of them, more and more...without having one single clue if it leads somewhere and where it may be leading don't we ?

Dan ...........

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Thu, 10 May 2018 #21
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Salut Dan!

Yes,

above we speak of this constant tendency of the mental to encroach on our daily life .. once again the dissatisfaction, the boredom, the sadness, the anger are manifested, etc., generating with them sensations felt in the body.... and being aware with all theese sensations without analysing, something happen..

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Thu, 10 May 2018 #22
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
and being aware with all these sensations without analysing, something happen..and being aware with all these sensations without analysing, something happen..

Yes I leave all that alone for a little while...as there would be more to say here, but it will come in its own time..

Dan ...........

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Thu, 10 May 2018 #23
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

quote of the day..

All ideals must ever be of the future. A mind that is divided, a mind that is striving after the future, cannot understand the present, and thus it develops a duality in action.

Now, having created a problem, having created a conflict, because we cannot meet the present wholly, we try to find a solution for the problem. That is what we are constantly doing, isn't it? All of us have problems. Most of you are here because you think that I am going to help you solve your many problems, and you will be disappointed when I say that I cannot solve them. What I am going to do is try to show the cause of the problem, and then you, by understanding, can solve your problem for yourself. The problem exists as long as mind and heart are divided in action. That is, when we have established an idea in the future and are trying to be consistent, we are incapable of meeting the present fully; so, having created a problem, we try to seek a solution, which is but an escape.

Dan ...........

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Thu, 10 May 2018 #24
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Juste P.S

the human being is always embarked in his mental whirlwind in this kind of situation and does not even realize the physical sensations that are manifested in those moments

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Thu, 10 May 2018 #25
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Pour pas l'oublier lol

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Fri, 11 May 2018 #26
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
the human being is always embarked in his mental whirlwind in this kind of situation and does not even realize the physical sensations that are manifested in those moments

Hello Richard

I am not sure about what you imply here, my thoughtful guess is that you talk about this sensation mentally and physically felt when one is wrong and get such "message" from ??? indicating that we actually are doing something wrong, so that this symptom which is a warning is not perceived at all for what it is ??

then we remain for a lifetime in this whirlwind only..?

This has huge consequences one way or another is not it ?

Dan ...........

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Fri, 11 May 2018 #27
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
not perceived at all for what it is ??

Not only it is not felt as it should be but it is downright obscured as the mental whirlwind takes is intense .. in fact, the physical sensation is an essential support in my opinion. Indeed, when we pay attention to the sensation, its location, its movement, its intensity, well something happens that tends to make the thought evaporate 

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Sat, 12 May 2018 #28
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
Not only it is not felt as it should be but it is downright obscured as the mental whirlwind takes is intense .. in fact, the physical sensation is an essential support in my opinion. Indeed, when we pay attention to the sensation, its location, its movement, its intensity, well something happens that tends to make the thought evaporate

Well good morning ...

the physical sensation yes I see what you are talking about so I have to agree with what you bring here, it is unmissable when one knows about its existence and reason to be...

and indeed yes when this is lived, not thought about, yes something happens, unexpected ,always unexpected so far, since I experimented with this directly...without willing to experiment it...that is the effect for me of suffering as a catalyst ...as a catalyst it is vital for the "process" but will not be found in whatever results in this process ..

I suspect such "process" to be perfectly adapted and somehow very well known so is not at all coincidental, not by us but by...something x...this is clear for me.

This is globally perfectly ignored or rejected.

Dan ...........

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