Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is silence? Is it static or it changes it's qualities all the time?


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Wed, 02 May 2018 #151
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
When one inquires one has to put krishnamurti aside and investigate

We are not talking about K but rather what he has pointed out about conditioning. Not what some dictionary definition of conditioning relative to psychiatry is saying.

Goodman B wrote:
We are not here to examine what he said,

Yes, I believe that is a big part of why we are here. K pointed out that we are conditioned; how and why. I think it is important to see that in our own lives.

Goodman B wrote:

we should always start fresh

By moving completely away from what K said about conditioning and discussing the psychiatric definition of conditioning? I don't see where that helps us to understand our own conditioning which is pervasive throughout our lives. Each one of us.

Personally, I'm not interested in ending conditioning, per se, so much as I am interested in understanding what that conditioning is. For example, do we see how we have been conditioned to accept nationalism? Organized religion, constant war? Can we see how corrupt society is? How destructive it is? We are society. We have to see these things for ourselves which is change before society will change.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #152
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

Me is getting bored with responding to jack's needs.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #153
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1863 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Me is getting bored with responding to jack's needs.

What does that mean? Is Jack expressing 'needs' - or is Jack questioning? Surely it is the latter.

To label questioning as 'needs' shows a definite level of misunderstanding - both of Jack's questioning and of K's teaching!

Any wonder you are 'bored'! :)

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #154
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
One of the main factor of de - conditioning is the right kind of education which is not based on the reward and punishment.

This is important but this won't be de-conditioning.This will be bringing up a child intelligently without conditioning the child.

De-conditioning has to be, would be, removing or ending the conditioning of an already conditioned person, isn't it?

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #155
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
De-conditioning has to be, would be, removing or ending the conditioning of an already conditioned person, isn't it?

Yes. Is not freedom from one conditioning another form of conditioning? To want to be not conditioned is a movement of thought, of desire, to be a "better" person. A desire to change instead of being choicelessly aware of one's conditioning.

It's the same with silence. To seek silence, to discuss silence, is not silence.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 02 May 2018.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #156
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
What does that mean? Is Jack expressing 'needs' - or is Jack questioning? Surely it is the latter.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #157
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

It is very easy to doubt others, is it not? But to doubt yourself ,to doubt your own conditioning is not easy,try it .

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #158
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
De-conditioning has to be, would be, removing or ending the conditioning of an already conditioned person, isn't it?

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #159
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
De-conditioning has to be, would be, removing or ending the conditioning of an already conditioned person, isn't it?

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #160
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

May be the most important factor of de-conditioning is doubt. Specially doubting and questioning oneself is it not?

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #161
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Personally, I'm not interested in ending conditioning, per se, so much as I am interested in understanding what that conditioning is.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #162
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

It is obvious that you are not interest in ending your conditioning, you like to play with it till it is too late. To end conditioning you have to doubt your own thinking which you apparently don't question .

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #163
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
De-conditioning has to be, would be, removing or ending the conditioning of an already conditioned person, isn't it?

The concept of "de-conditioning" is an invention of thought to try to escape conditioning instead of being aware of it. The term "de-conditioning" is a duality. For example, if you want to look at hate do you invent something called "non-hate"? A duality is an escape from the fact.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #164
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Instead of trying to understand the cause of suffering, you are constantly trying to conquer that suffering or to escape from it, which is the same thing. Krishnamurti: Quote of the day, May 2, 2018

This is today's quote. Instead of the word "suffering" put in the word "conditioning". It's the same result; trying to conquer or escape from the reality.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 03 May 2018.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #165
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

Once someone is conditioned he or she is under hypnotism. There is nothing to learn or understand about conditioning. The only sane action is to step out of it. Playing with the conditioning is like playing with a deadly snake . It gets nowhere. One has to abandon the conditioning without introducing time. There is no time element in De-conditioning . Think it out.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #166
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Once someone is conditioned he or she is under hypnotism. There is nothing to learn or understand about conditioning.

It's not a question of "once someone is conditioned" it's that we are all conditioned from the time we are born forward. It you are thinking then you are expressing your conditioning. Physical conditioning, ie learning how to dress, cook, brush you teeth, drive a car, do your job, etc is necessary in order to survive.

Psychological conditioning is seeing the world according to what you have been taught by your parents, teachers, etc, by your environment, by your society. Your experiences and what you have learned all are part of your conditioning.

It is the view of the world we grow up with. We are conditioned to be predisposed to be Christian, or Hindu, or Muslim, etc depending on where we were born and grew up.

Do we want to understand conditioning or escape from it? If we seek the ending of conditioning then there is a duality. We are conditioned and we want to be "de-conditioned". Can we understand conditioning if we are concerned with ending it? Why do we want to end it?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 03 May 2018.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #167
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

You are conditioned or you are not conditioned. Do you see that statement or you are trying to oppose that statement with your take (which has nothing to do with what is being said here)? Can you think with other people ? Is that your conditioning to oppose mechanically(most minds are) ? Can you see that first and then we can talk. I don't want to tell you why conditioning has to end. If you want to remain conditioned it is your business. But those of us who don't want to be hypnotizes by propagandas and their own desires and want to be free human beings . and last of all forget the words, Conditioning is another word for hypnotism. And don't use the words when you think that they are ideas. To you de-onditioning is an idea ,so what? Is that your defence? You are an idea are you not? Is doubt an idea? Doubt breaks the conditioning ,the me . But you like your "me" so you never doubt it therefore for ever you are conditioned by the past.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #168
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman, I have no interest in getting into a contest, a conflict, with you about anything. I would point out that if you or I or anyone are going to discuss something on this forum then it behooves us to be as accurate and knowledgeable as we can. Otherwise the discussion becomes gibberish.

We are all conditioned from birth. There is no ambiguity about that statement. It is not a fact because I say so but because it is a demonstrable fact of life. If you wish, I suggest you go to JKrishnamurti Online and put in the word "conditioned" and see how K discusses this word. It may clear somethings up or not.

I am going to show you the respect that anyone deserves and I'm going to answer your questions in the post above. But this is the last time I intend to that. You are, of course, free to believe what you want.

And last, let's drop our egos and not make this a pissing contest about who is right and who is wrong. It's not a question of right and wrong it is a question of facts. We want to find the facts and we can both gain some understanding from these facts.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #169
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
You are conditioned or you are not conditioned. Do you see that statement or you are trying to oppose that statement with your take (which has nothing to do with what is being said here)?

As I wrote above we are all conditioned from birth. It's not that either we are or are not conditioned. I am not going to oppose that statement because a fact doesn't have two sides to it. Either it is or it isn't a fact.

Goodman B wrote:
I don't want to tell you why conditioning has to end. If you want to remain conditioned it is your business.

I'm not asking you to tell me anything. What I actually wrote was that if you want to end something, conditioning or whatever, inventing the opposite and then pursuing that opposite is not going to work. It seems reasonable that if one wants to end conditioning then one has to understand that conditioning. See the conditioning. Understand how you have been conditioned to accept that there is or there is not a god, understand why you accept nationalism with it's wars and conflict and division and so on.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #170
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

You are saying any body who uses thought (including krishnamurti) is conditioned. Is that a true or false statement. And I don't know how you came up with a contest thing! What does every child or baby is conditioned thing. We are all grown ups and have to deal with "what is" not with "what once was". The objective of krishnamurti was to set man free from conditioning and he did. Once one is free from conditioning then he or she is not conditioned.. (so simple to see.)

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #171
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
If you want to remain conditioned it is your business. But those of us who don't want to be hypnotizes by propagandas and their own desires and want to be free human beings . and last of all forget the words, Conditioning is another word for hypnotism.

Not really. Hypnotism implies intent on some one's part to bring about a temporary state of control in the mind of a particular person. I think mechanical, as in a mechanical mind, is more accurate and descriptive.

Goodman B wrote:
And don't use the words when you think that they are ideas. To you de-onditioning is an idea ,so what?

Do you see that instead of staying with conditioning and understanding what that is thought has invented the opposite. It creates a duality which brings confusion with it.

Goodman B wrote:
You are an idea are you not? Is doubt an idea?

Yes; you, I, me, we are ideas. We are inventions of thought just as de-conditioning is an invention of thought. Doubt can be an idea if you are using it as a process, tool, to understand something such as conditioning instead of looking directly at conditioning.

Goodman B wrote:
But you like your "me" so you never doubt it therefore for ever you are conditioned by the past.

You don't know me. Let's not get into personal attacks. Personal attacks inevitably derail the discussion. I know I have gone down that path myself a few times.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 04 May 2018.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #172
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
The objective of krishnamurti was to set man free from conditioning and he did. Once one is free from conditioning then he or she is not conditioned.. (so simple to see.)

K obviously did not free man from conditioning. Are you free from conditioning? Is everyone you know free from conditioning? Let's at least try to be rational. This sounds like a spin-off from the Jesus myth where he died for our sins.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 04 May 2018.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #173
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti: New Delhi, First Talk 30th October, 1982

THE ROOT CAUSE OF OUR CONFUSION

So, let us proceed from that. Is your mind, your brain, conditioned? Do you understand that word `conditioned' ? From the moment we are born, the brain is being conditioned, shaped by tradition, by religion, by the literature you read, by the newspapers, by parents. the brain has lived for millions of years. It has had great many experiences. It has faced wars, sorrow, pleasure, pain, agony, great disturbances. And it is conditioned as a Hindu, as a Sikh, as a Muslim, as a Christian. Why is it conditioned? We are enquiring seriously whether your brain which is conditioned - if you are aware of it - can that conditioning be resolved? Do we see actually that we are conditioned? Do both of us agree to this at least? If you are conditioned, it means your being becomes mechanical - you repeat that you are a Hindu, you are a Muslim, you are a Marxist, and so on. Your brain becomes mechanical, repeating the same thing over and over again. So, first, do we, two of us, talking together as friends, realize actually that our brains are conditioned? Then we ask whether it is possible to free the brain from being a Hindu, a Muslim, a Christian, a Marxist. We are human beings, not labels. But labels count a great deal. That is what is going on.

Where there is conditioning, there is no freedom. There cannot be love, there cannot be affection. It is imperative, absolutely essential for the future of humanity that we are concerned with the brain which is conditioned. If one is aware of that, then we can proceed to ask whether it is possible to free the brain. The relationship between the brain and the mind can come, is understood, when the brain is completely free. Then the brain is the mind. We will go into that later as we go along.
We are conditioned, and we are asking whether it is possible to be free. Don't say it is or it is not, because that will be absurd; whereas if you are enquiring, then you are learning through investigation. Where do you begin to enquire whether it is possible to free the brain from its conditioning, to enquire whether it is possible not to be a Hindu or a Muslim or a Sikh, but a human being with all the travails of humanity, the anxieties, the uncertainties, the depth of sorrow and pain? Do you begin to enquire from the outside or do you begin to enquire from inside? That is, is the outside world different from the world in which we live inside? Do you understand that question? The society, the morals, the outward world - is that different from you or have you created it? Please look at this: The world is you and you are the world. It is very important to understand this. In our disorder, in our confusion, in our desire for security, we have created a world outside of us as society, which is corrupt, immoral, confused, everlastingly at war, because we in ourselves are confused, we are in conflict.

So where do you begin, knowing that you have created this world? You have to begin with yourself, not with the alteration of the system, of the outer world. It means, not looking for a new leader, new system, new philosophy, new gurus, but looking at yourself as you are. Can you observe yourself as you would observe your face in a mirror? Can you observe your reactions, your responses, because your reactions and your responses are what you are. So let us begin to enquire there.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #174
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Let's not get into personal attacks. Personal attacks inevitably derail the discussion. I know I have gong down that path myself a few times.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #175
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

Wow, personal attack! See how protective of the little "me" you are. I know you from what you write and think. That is all . I know that it is impossible to have a dialogue with you because you don't agree . And yes krishnamurti didn't waste his lift time setting man free. If he didn't set you free it is not the same with all.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #176
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

When krishnamurti talks about resolving the conditioning is resolve an idea opposite to conditioning. Resolving and de conditioning have the same meaning . They are not ideas. Ideas do not exist except in the heads of people.

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Fri, 04 May 2018 #177
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Resolving and de conditioning have the same meaning .

No actually they don't. Resolve in the K text above is clear. What he actually wrote is if you are aware of your conditioning can that resolve it? He did not say if you create a duality of de-conditioning you can end it.

And how can you know me when you don't even know yourself? You don't even realize that you are conditioned.

You really need to try harder to comprehend what you are reading. If it was just you and me talking I wouldn't waste anymore time on this. But it is clear you don't understand what conditioning is and you may mislead others with your confusion.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 04 May 2018.

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Fri, 04 May 2018 #178
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
he concept of "de-conditioning" is an invention of thought to try to escape conditioning instead of being aware of it. The term "de-conditioning" is a duality.

Yes. Any conscious attempt would be another form of conditioning.

Jack Pine wrote:
For example, if you want to look at hate do you invent something called "non-hate"?

Yes, that would be thought creating it's 'none hate' state which is actually an illusion.

To understand, to be aware of of conditioning, is all that is required.

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Fri, 04 May 2018 #179
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 171 posts in this forum Offline

But you cannot understand your conditioning that is the problem. If you could understand your conditioning you would have already done that .

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Fri, 04 May 2018 #180
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5028 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
But you cannot understand your conditioning that is the problem. If you could understand your conditioning you would have already done that .

Goodman you are embarrassing yourself. Why are you flaying away at me verbally with your ridiculous attempts at insults? What you probably should be doing instead is finding out what K was actually saying about conditioning instead of what you think he was saying.

Let's do try to remain civil, and perhaps more importantly rational, with your posts. OK? I think I have said all I can to explain conditioning to you. Now it's up to you.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 04 May 2018.

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