Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is silence? Is it static or it changes it's qualities all the time?


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Thu, 26 Apr 2018 #121
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Oh, wait that's one meaning.I mean I've heard somebody saying something & my thinking got influenced.

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Thu, 26 Apr 2018 #122
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

Is that our conditioning, the influence of words?

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Thu, 26 Apr 2018 #123
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5060 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Is that our conditioning, the influence of words?

Thought is always conditioned by past experience and knowledge. Thought is the expression of conditioning.

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #124
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1245 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Thought is the expression of conditioning.

Except when it is an expression of 'intelligence'.

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #125
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5060 posts in this forum Offline

K pointed out that thought is mechanical and therefore measurable. Intelligence is not. K went on to point out: Krishnamurti: So thought is measurable, intelligence is not. And how does it happen that this intelligence comes into existence? If thought has no relationship with intelligence, then is the cessation of thought the awakening of intelligence? Or is it that intelligence, being independent of thought, and therefore not of time, exists always?

Fascinating isn't it? K and Dr. Bohm are saying that intelligence is. It doesn't belong to anyone it is what is there when thought is not. Or in other words when there is silence. Thought is always the past. But intelligence is something else not related to the past, not related to thought.

*The Awakening of Intelligence, J Krishnamurti conversation with David Bohm, Brockwood Park, 7 Oct, 1972

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #126
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

Thought being the response of memory to a challenge is always fragmentary and insufficient. And we are conditioned by this fragmentary thought. Now silence is not thought or a product of thought. Silence is intelligence but we are conditioned to act and react from thought therefore always lack intelligence. .

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #127
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

If we discover why our mind is so attached to knowledge and thought may be then we can free the mind from the traps of thought ..

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #128
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

"Real freedom is not something to be acquired, it is the outcome of intelligence. You cannot go out and buy freedom in the market. You cannot get it by reading a book, or by listening to someone talk. Freedom comes with intelligence.

But what is intelligence? Can there be intelligence when there is fear, or when the mind is conditioned? When your mind is prejudiced, or when you think you are a marvelous human being, or when you are very ambitious and want to climb the ladder of success, worldly or spiritual, can there be intelligence? When you are concerned about yourself, when you follow or worship somebody, can there be intelligence? Surely, intelligence comes when you understand and break away from all this stupidity. So you have to set about it; and the first thing is to be aware that your mind is not free. You have to observe how your mind is bound by all these things, and then there is the beginning of intelligence, which brings freedom. You have to find the answer for yourself. What is the use of someone else being free when you are not, or of someone else having food when you are hungry?

To be creative, which is to have real initiative, there must be freedom; and for freedom there must be intelligence. So you have to inquire and find out what is preventing intelligence. You have to investigate life, you have to question social values, everything, and not accept anything because you are frightened." ~ J.K.

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #129
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5060 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
And we are conditioned by this fragmentary thought.

We are this fragmentary thought, we are not separate from thought.

You know, the thinker is the thought that K so often mentioned.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 27 Apr 2018.

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #130
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

If I say I am thought then that is the end , I remain as thought till I die.

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #131
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

But if I say that I am not merely thought or a remembrance then maybe things change . But once I identify myself with a dead thing (like thought) what happens?

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #132
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

But if I say that I am not merely thought or a remembrance then maybe things change . But once I identify myself with a dead thing (like thought) what happens?

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #133
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1158 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
If I say I am thought then that is the end , I remain as thought till I die.

If I say 'I' what is that? It is something tangible, something discernible, isn't it? That is something is there, right? A picture or word or something. Something must be there, right? Otherwise how can we say 'I'? If anything tangible is there in the mind, some form,some word, it is then thought, isn't it? So is not 'me', whatever it may be,no matter what we say, thought?

Now does that mean we remain the way we are? Cannot thought in the psychological area end?

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #134
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1158 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Is that our conditioning, the influence of words?

Influence of views, what we see, hear etc. Also words can condition us too, isn't it? For example here if you say actress or actor(an actress is being interviewed in TV here at this moment!)then invariably you tend to think the person is carefree , fun loving etc.Whereas this may not be the case as a rule.

Anyhow I think Jack Pine's post on last page covers amply what conditioning is, isn't it?

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #135
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

When we say "I", what do we mean by that word?

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Fri, 27 Apr 2018 #136
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

There is

Goodman B wrote:
When we say "I", what do we mean by that word?
There is an " I" that is merely a language thing for example ,I am cooking dinner,or I have cold. That I is not the conditioning. But there is an I which identifies with things and ideas people like my wife or my country or my religion which sets the ground for conditioning and blindness.

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Sat, 28 Apr 2018 #137
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1158 posts in this forum Offline

Which sets the ground for conditioning or which is conditioning?

Any how this is what I said.There is this I with an emotional component. My this or that. Accompanying with it anger , fear, etc., etc.So that is thought in an area, isn't it?

Then there is the mere memory. If we say 'the' that is just a word. So memory is there in brain cells. We can think where to go etc. How to do a sum. That is devoid of any emotion. If I become ambitious about it then it has become a psychological issue.

Now there is thinking in two areas. One is needed to function in the world & the other psychological.

So is not 'me' thought in the psychological sphere as images?

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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 #138
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

We have been considering conditioning, what it is and and how a conditioned mind is limited therefore lives in conflict and sorrow all the time. Now the question that comes is that what is the factor of de- conditioning? We know that the factor of conditioning is thought. What is de-conditioning?

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #139
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5060 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
We know that the factor of conditioning is thought. What is de-conditioning?

Thought is conditioned. Thought is based on the past; memory and experience. It is of time. To ask how to "de-condition" conditioning, if that is what you are asking, is a reaction to conditioning. "I am conditioned and I want to be free of conditioning" is a meaningless statement because "I" is the invention of thought and is, therefore, the same conditioning as all other thought. "I" can never be free of conditioning.

Maybe it is enough to be aware of one's conditioning without wanting to change anything, without reacting to that conditioning.

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #140
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
To ask how to "de-condition" conditioning, if that is what you are asking, is a reaction to.....

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #141
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

I knew that you had no answer to that question but that is all right ,let the question sink in and you will see that the answer to the question is in the question.

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #142
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5060 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
I knew that you had no answer to that question but that is all right ,let the question sink in and you will see that the answer to the question is in the question.

I did answer. What do you mean by "de-conditioning"? In the English language the prefix "de" means: remove, reduce, devalue, do the opposite of, deactivate, reverse.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 01 May 2018.

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #143
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

con•di•tion•ing (k?n?d?? ? n??)

n.
1. a process of changing behavior by rewarding or punishing a subject each time an action is performed.
2. Also called classical conditioning. a process in which a previously neutral stimulus comes to evoke a specific response by being repeatedly paired with another stimulus that evokes the response.
[1915–20]
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #144
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

One of the main factor of de - conditioning is the right kind of education which is not based on the reward and punishment. .

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #145
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

K: We are conditioned, and we are asking whether it is possible to be free. Don't say it is or it is not, because that will be absurd; whereas if you are enquiring, then you are learning through investigation. Where do you begin to enquire whether it is possible to free the brain from its conditioning, to enquire whether it is possible not to be a Hindu or a Muslim or a Sikh, but a human being with all the travails of humanity, the anxieties, the uncertainties, the depth of sorrow and pain? Do you begin to enquire from the outside or do you begin to enquire from inside? That is, is the outside world different from the world in which we live inside? Do you understand that question? The society, the morals, the outward world - is that different from you or have you created it? Please look at this: The world is you and you are the world. It is very important to understand this. In our disorder, in our confusion, in our desire for security, we have created a world outside of us as society, which is corrupt, immoral, confused, everlastingly at war, because we in ourselves are confused, we are in conflict.

Krishnamurti Mind Without Measure Talks in New Delhi 1st Public Talk 30th October, 1982 `The Root Cause of Confusion'

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #146
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5060 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks, I know what the word conditioning means. What interests me is realizing, after K kindly pointed it out, that every facet of our consciousness, ourselves is our conditioning. We are not separate from conditioning. So are you asking what happens when conditioning ends? Can conditioning end?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 02 May 2018.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #147
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Now the question that comes is that what is the factor of de- conditioning? We know that the factor of conditioning is thought. What is de-conditioning?
The dictionary says

deconditioning
?d?k?n?diSH?niNG/
nounPSYCHIATRY
the reform or reversal of previously conditioned behaviour, especially in the treatment of phobia and other anxiety disorders in which the fear response to certain stimuli is brought under control.
"anxiety reactions triggered by specific stimuli may be subject to deconditioning"

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #148
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Now the question that comes is that what is the factor of de- conditioning? We know that the factor of conditioning is thought. What is de-conditioning?
The dictionary says

deconditioning
?d?k?n?diSH?niNG/
nounPSYCHIATRY
the reform or reversal of previously conditioned behaviour, especially in the treatment of phobia and other anxiety disorders in which the fear response to certain stimuli is brought under control.
"anxiety reactions triggered by specific stimuli may be subject to deconditioning"

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #149
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5060 posts in this forum Offline

I'm sorry are we talking psychiatry's limited take on conditioning here or on what Krishnamurti pointed out and discussed about conditioning?

From the definition you posted there doesn't seem to be much of a relationship between the two. I think it is safe to say that when K discussed conditioning he was referring to an all pervasive reality. Something that touches all of us not just a relatively few mentally challenged individuals.

K's discussion of conditioning goes well beyond a particular neurotic or psychotic behavior described in your dictionary definition of a neurological condition. One able to be treated and "cured" by medical care.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #150
Thumb_screenshot_2014-08-09-12-40-46 Goodman B United States 279 posts in this forum Offline

When one inquires one has to put krishnamurti aside and investigate . We are not here to examine what he said, we can do that if we want but we should always start fresh . People have different takes from krishnamurti. One can get lost in words very easily. So for the sake of clarity one has to put krishnamurti aside and look.
De - conditioning is as I said is part of the education. But apparently you don't understand me and keep saying that we should not use thought in these blogs to investigate . But I think that we should employ thought and discuss everything including silence, joy , meditation and on as krishnamurti did.

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