Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Was Buddha's sathipattana meditation originally same as what K taught?


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Sun, 29 Apr 2018 #121
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
then when one is obviously doing something wrong to you,or to humanity etc factually doing so, well to be able to see that already needs some sort of clarity about oneself and about the situation like to be able to instantly know if I am not wrong, so it needs a very swift mind, and we have that in store but usually we do not use it as it is not turned on and the masters have some vague clue here and they control that in us ..

Dan what is it that masters control in us please?

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Sun, 29 Apr 2018 #122
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
the two teachers taught the same.

Yes i agree with that also

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Sciptures say enlightened people can get 6 different seeings.It says not all the enlightened beings get all the 6!

I think we have To be careful with all that... this suggest an "I" a self...
this tends to feed an I a self

This post was last updated by richard viillar Sun, 29 Apr 2018.

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Sun, 29 Apr 2018 #123
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

Frankly I don't know. I am not enlightened.
Anyhow although the two teachers apparently taught the same what the present day Buddhists call meditation is completely meaningless.They are practicing some nonsense.

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Sun, 29 Apr 2018 #124
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Frankly I don't know. I am not enlightened.

me too, me too :-)

i just talk about the notion of karma whitch i think it suggest a self....

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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 #125
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
i just talk about the notion of karma whitch i think it suggest a self....

Now supposing the consciousness continues unless it is emptied, then manifesting it might carry resemblance to it's past content like square shaped mango seeds producing another square shaped mango tree. Then another consciousness continuing will have latent unconscious memories awakened due to the resemblance.Now cannot that recognition trigger a reaction?

Now is this suggestive of a self? Consciousness gives the illusion of a self. The self is always, when we are alive too,is only an illusion. Continuing of the consciousness only means the the cause of the illusion which is in material form is continuing. But not a self. That is our illusion only.

Richard, I am just making a logical deduction only. Offering a possibility. I don't know at all whether karma is there factually.

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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 #126
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

You know B's teaching talks of 5 skandas describing I believe an individual.

1)Rupa. 2)vedana. 3)sanna. 4)sankhara. 5)vinnana.

Now K too always talked;

1) seeing(rupa), 2)sensation(vedana), 3)memory(sanna), 4)image(sankhara), 5) self consciousness.

You see in describing desire he always mentioned this sequence.

So I find it the same as far as I understand.

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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 #127
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Richard, I am just making a logical deduction only. Offering a possibility. I don't know at all whether karma is there factually.

Yes i do understand kapila.. :-)

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Now is this suggestive of a self?

I think it can Kapila..

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
B's teaching talks of 5 skandas describing I believe an individual

I think He teached that, to deconstruct the notion of an individual

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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 #128
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
So I find it the same as far as I understand

I understand the same teaching also

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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 #129
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

then when one is obviously doing something wrong to you,or to humanity etc factually doing so, well to be able to see that already needs some sort of clarity about oneself and about the situation like to be able to instantly know if I am not wrong, so it needs a very swift mind, and we have that in store but usually we do not use it as it is not turned on and the masters have some vague clue here and they control that in us ..

Dan what is it that masters control in us please?

Good morning Kapila,

both simple and complex some views on that are..
basically they succeed to persuade us, persuasion for me is always with the consent of the one persuaded, to persuade us to invert the facts of life; so where individuality is vital the crooks leading us bring a sort of collective and where collective is vital the crooks bring individuality, all is now upside down. This is very easy to do so like by persuade anyoning that one is a potential genius and deserves more because this is all what there is in life, Everyone goes for that which only need a superficial thought to be organised, then all our so called life by then becomes superficial and self centred, anyone of us becomes in one's own eyes a centre, who knows everything about everything..

then three false myth become truth, the myth of the best who should lead, the myth of competition giving the best all the time everywhere, the myth of "me" who is the base of all what is....

in this lie disappears the collective force ( which is not the addition of the many alleged "me") sustaining the all universe which now becomes the addition of selves where some alleged best lead, disappears too a fair world so a good world as now we are all potentially in conflict so at war, disappears real peace a side effect outcome of voluntarily cooperating and sharing , this is for the superficial

as to what is deeper this disappears too because there is no deeper, no deep truth at all anymore but just a cold life in cold matter where me is the king...

then we will never know about properly solving dukkha , fear , anxiety, sorrow, terror, poverty, etc etc

end of the.

So where we should go individually which is in the matter of solving our suffering, sorrows, fears, etc the masters provide a global answer of his , using false religions, psycho bla bla , etc etc

and where we should go collective, united , etc the masters provide us with competition which is : people you all fight now because the bird eats the worm...when it would be an easy matter to collectively organise the survival in good conditions for all of us, which can be done only on a voluntary base..

all this to allow some to steal the group, which in this matter is utterly stupid...

as if it was not enough the crooks cooperate, we don't..

it is all as stupid as that, Darwin was a crook too of course an so on..

we are blind, it is a choice in my view...

Well i guess for now that is enough about that ..

cheerio kapila..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Mon, 30 Apr 2018.

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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 #130
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

if and when it is about dukkha ,wrongly translated by suffering.

The Sanskrit term "du?kha" probably comes from the following: "su" and "du?" are prefixes that indicate that something is "good" or "bad", "correct" or "incorrect"; the word "kha" meant "hole" and specifically represented the "hub of a wheel" or the location where the axis of a wheel was located. The original Sanskrit word "sukha" therefore means "that turns perfectly", and so "du?kha" is often compared to a wheel that does not rotate properly. We could therefore translate it as "what does go wrong", "unpleasant" or "unsatisfactory"

Je trouve cette traduction correcte

Salut Richard...excellent , l’étymologie trouve toute sa place dans la définition d'un tel mot..

Well then we can say that dukkha mentions what is not whole like a wheel which does not rotae properly , the polarity of dukkha being sukkha so what is whole

now it makes simple and perfect sense .

thanks for this very important work on that ..as it will make the use of this word easier..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 #131
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Richard, I am just making a logical deduction only. Offering a possibility. I don't know at all whether karma is there factually.

Yes i do understand kapila.. :-)

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Now is this suggestive of a self?

I think it can Kapila..

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

B's teaching talks of 5 skandas describing I believe an individual

I think he taught that, to deconstruct the notion of an individual

Hello Kapila and Richard

this always had been for me a difficult subject. still is because in my view the individual has a real existence at all levels....I am clearly not kapila or Richard etc and you are not Dan ,this is an obvious fact...

when I walk if i am the edge of the cliff then I fall...if I am the tree I bang into it..there is so separation too..as there is unity as well..

what we human have done is to bring forth me, the centre, as the whole...

this is something which does not exist ...in fact it is terribly hard I find to put all that in words because in my view one must see at all time life as a whole process, where there are elements belonging to this whole..

thought unable to see the whole will divide for understanding sake, then it will start believing its own artificial division as being the whole ..

Again it is going back to: thought when working alone as it does for us now since millennium (but for me not at all since our unknown beginning) is the problem..

then here we go again in all our unsolved and ignored problems..as it does all the time in a nearly perfect catch 22 .

there is no way to avoid personal sorrows right approach , yet for once we are quite successful in the matter..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 #132
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

from today's quote, some of it only

What is important is not how to recognize one who is liberated but how to understand yourself. No authority here or hereafter can give you knowledge of yourself; without self-knowledge there is no liberation from ignorance, from sorrow.

You are the creator of misery as you are the creator of ignorance and authority; you bring the leader into being and follow him; your craving fashions the pattern of your religious and worldly life so it is essential to understand yourself and so transform the way of your life. Be aware of why you follow another, why you search out authority, why you crave direction in conduct; be aware of the ways of craving. The mind-heart has become insensitive through fear and gratification of authority but through deep awareness of thought-feeling comes the quickening of life. Through choiceless awareness the total process of your being is understood; through passive awareness comes enlightenment.

Well about choiceless awareness this is not for me and some an outcome of thought..it comes from our other capacities...which cannot be sought for ...an apparent paradox only.

Dan ...........

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #133
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Dan,

When I said masters I was referring to a term coming mainly in K's biographies. These are supposedly celestial beings in a higher realm who help us human beings in our attempts to end suffering.

I said this type of thing can be dangerous because we can start deluding ourselves.

When Mrs.Zimballist asked why masters don't talk to him anymore K's answer had been 'There is no need. Lord is here now'.

Once when K was staying with Narayan & some others, K had called everybody to his room. Then K had said, 'Buddha is here, ask anything you want'. I think there it means ask any question which needs clarification.So this means, just analyzing the statement without saying it is possible or not possible, K could communicate with some great being!

We have to be careful with this. It is very easy to delude ourselves. Main thing is nobody can inquire for us. Somebody can give you food or something & make things easier, but the inquiry we have to do.We have to be crystal clear here because otherwise this as a belief can weaken us.

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #134
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Now is this suggestive of a self?
I think it can Kapila..

I want to look at this again Richard.

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Tue, 01 May 2018 #135
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Hi Dan,

When I said masters I was referring to a term coming mainly in K's biographies. These are supposedly celestial beings in a higher realm who help us human beings in our attempts to end suffering.

Hello kapila

well I was not sure what you were referring to, so I guessed what you were implying which does not change anything to the superficial answer I made, by superficial I mean that my answer was mentioning the superficial lairs of our problems ..
I do not know about celestial beings is the only answer I can give, as I said I may or may not have encountered one, but this I do not know for sure so I do not directly know in fact. Having said that some moments in my life could suggest such thing ....some moments say all is possible..but nothing in common with thought, suffering, fear and all our world, not a thing in common...

to add to this "weird" stuff , I was listening to a friend of mine and he was mentioning a sort of guardian angel of his and came this thinking while listening to him that it could well be some sort of original sort of "oneself" in some sort of unknown dimension to us..just a wild guess which stated as it is , a wild guess...not talking about a sort of higher self of course here, but when some of our most capacities turn themselves on ,well there is actually at work "something " efficient which knows a lot about unconscious, and much much more like who-which knows about solving suffering, problems, bring contentment , knows about telepathy, about a universal language that we do understand and speak without knowing it when thought does not lead and god knows what else is behind all that, it is probably infinite

the state of the brain mind so of life which was there is pure contentment and intense , there can be nothing to search for, add to that, in itself it is food for life...of course I know that there is more to all that, could it be infinite ?? of course it could..

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
I said this type of thing can be dangerous because we can start deluding ourselves.

Well you see for me probably 100% of human are deluded less as usual some possible exceptions, so what more danger is there ? when mankind is possibly on the verge to destroy all the planet out of suffering and totally meaningless life and if we do not nature will provide the means...for the record I never was cautious, careful by all means..in such subjects, I met many person saying that one must be careful all along, people warning about the danger of what they would call kundathing..I hate the word , but that is simply not true in what I encountered ..

What I know as a matter of fact and for sure only for myself, is that man's insanity come straight from the malfunction of our brains..with all the missing capacities not turned on, with the totalitarianism of thought on the brain so on our lives , thought is just a machine which has no idea of compassion, togetherness, helping, sharing, and so on..it is a cold machine end of the story...and the cold machine is in pain..because it is not one of our machine but a different one , a flesh and blood machine created somehow unknown from us..yet of course some pretend to know about that, another lie of course...

you know kapila the way we behave and are ,there is no need for some greater nasty beings behind all that, that could be one more escape to refuse to see that we human are the disaster..

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
When Mrs.Zimballist asked why masters don't talk to him anymore K's answer had been 'There is no need. Lord is here now'.

Once when K was staying with Narayan & some others, K had called everybody to his room. Then K had said, 'Buddha is here, ask anything you want'. I think there it means ask any question which needs clarification.So this means, just analysing the statement without saying it is possible or not possible, K could communicate with some great being!

I do not know.I can't ignore such possibility, never did actually when k is concerned but that is beyond what I have lived so I just can listen to it...and leave it in a corner not knowing..as to "not analysing" in a situation where there is no conclusion like possible or impossible, this is something I know since a long time ...

so bottom line here, I do not know what came into k's brain...but this stories about greater beings yes I read it with interest...

There is another view on that that comes up right now..there may not be greater beings at all, but there may be something real behind all that which is not at all originated from thought, of course there is ...let's say there are greater beings, let us see mankind total insanity,...let us imagine nasty greater beings, then what ?? mankind again sees itself as not responsible..too childish it is, far too childish I see that..

So all that to reach your conclusion

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
We have to be careful with this. It is very easy to delude ourselves. Main thing is nobody can inquire for us. Somebody can give you food or something & make things easier, but the inquiry we have to do.We have to be crystal clear here because otherwise this as a belief can weaken us.

so back to oneself, after all a self is not that bad at all, if oneself takes care of oneself in a proper way starting with mental matters but not only then there is no problem with that, it does not mean that I am going to invade, kill millions and steal ,enslave etc

I am not sure at all that this self is the problem, that is not new, you know I sometimes say this we are not even selfish but we are escapist ...the so called self is escaping from itself and to do so one needs to be utterly ignorant of oneself...then in such situation what takes place...the so called self is trying to run away from......oneself...this means that all the entire energy I may have is used for that purpose mainly if not only, The escape is not taking place and never will, I am craving for that and it never ever takes place....this is suffering...in this attempt to run away, some succeed by killing themselves immediately , some by killing themselves slowly, some by killing others as their mind has become entirely nuts etc..the suffering tells this ,but we have lost that specific knowledge too...

back to knowing oneself, for me this means too knowing our program like it happened a few years ago, this is just one move but as nothing is dead in this matter ,soon the situation will move on towards something else and so on..mainly are not we searching for death , just another form of attempting to escape from what one is that is all, under the disguise of search for something permanent??

nobody can inquire for us , is what I see too like you say...so there is a personal matter in life in those fields and a collective matter in properly physically living...

as I mentioned above somewhere in another post we have got it the other way round and this is not done by greater beings but by the worse of us we work and vote for...

what an absolute insane stupidity :-((

anyway first step suffering must be solved..I did not forget that while writing all this

if this is not properly done, nothing else but illusion and fanciful ideas will take place in one's life ..

this message or fact does not work..does not spread, does not speak...because as k says

But this pain is much greater and more grievous than a toothache. It is more continuous, more distant and that is why we are doing nothing. We are looking to leaders, gurus, formulae, systems, etc.,

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Tue, 01 May 2018.

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #136
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
that could be one more escape to refuse to see that we human are the disaster..

Yes, we have created this world.

Anyhow this issue of greater beings is not so important. Main thing is nobody can end our suffering. We have to do our job.

Well, if greater beings are there, let them be there I suppose!

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #137
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Anyhow this issue of greater beings is not so important. Main thing is nobody can end our suffering. We have to do our job.

Well, if greater beings are there, let them be there I suppose!

Good morning Kapila...

well I like your words here, seems wise to me by all means..wise as a fact not as a compliment..

Something x, is pushing us into the right movement, so let it be that way...

cheerio

Dan ...........

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Wed, 02 May 2018 #138
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

I would also like to mention how Buddha's teaching remains contemporary and alive to the point that research is being done by scientists with regard to quantum physics and emptiness explained and written by Buddhism for more than two thousand years.

indeed, the corelations are numerous and obvious with regard to the intrinsic non-solidity of the phenomena, the impermanence and the interdependence.

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #139
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

I wonder how we would see things, if all the teachings were anonymous...... :-)

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #140
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
I wonder how we would see things, if all the teachings were anonymous...... :-)

Well Richard in my view this is a question which would take years to go into ...as it goes so deep down nearly to the bottom of our unconscious motives and conditionings ...

first we may start with authority and attachment...like k mentioned somewhere not his exact words at all, but the exact meaning: put an object on the mantelpiece of your chimney, carefully look at it each time you pass near by it, then after a while you will see the enormous place that this object has taken in your life ...

it works in the same way with people as well...

I find this weird...

anonymous teaching would not work as we are now..hopefully this is wrong..

Dan ...........

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Thu, 03 May 2018 #141
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 68 posts in this forum Offline

and yes I agree with you .. I believe that when we defend a teaching, it is not the teaching in itself that we defend, but what strengthens us in it and also what that allows us to avoid ...

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Fri, 04 May 2018 #142
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

Well Dan I nearly said something of the sort about you also several times.

I notice that you are always talking through your experience & immediately say you don't know if something is unclear. There is no pretense whatsoever.

Well I appreciate all that so much when there is so much of pretense with this type of thing.

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Fri, 04 May 2018 #143
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
I wonder how we would see things, if all the teachings were anonymous...... :-)

Well people would put a name to it & say they belong to that 'ism'!

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Fri, 04 May 2018 #144
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
indeed, the corelations are numerous and obvious with regard to the intrinsic non-solidity of the phenomena, the impermanence and the interdependence.

Yes, Richard.

It is remarkable how the nature of things are supposedly explained. I believe he supposedly said 'things are neither there nor not there'!

If you say things are there then things are static. If you say not there, then nothing can be there. So this description perhaps is talking of a movement not in time?

K also talked of a movement not in time I believe.

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Fri, 04 May 2018 #145
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
I notice that you are always talking through your experience & immediately say you don't know if something is unclear. There is no pretence whatsoever.

Hello kapila,

well yes I tend to , this is why I go only into some aspects or fields, yet of course sometimes one may be carried away as a possibility always there it seems to me. Such "game" then always contains a sort of warning excessively unpleasant at the best, as I often say recently: something x knows..

well actually pretence now would be signalled right away,then what will be done with this signal depends on the moment and person..

it may happen as such but is perceived too as such under the form: here I go again !!

thought will often if not always try such "tricks" because it is in its programming.
when used in the proper field, even there it can be dangerous, let us say I pretend that I can built a steady and solid roof and I built it, but this is not true....then most probably the roof will collapse and may kill you or someone..etc

this is why somehow some knowledge of the program of thought itself is deeply valuable..in the other thread I started I will try to put in words about the program of thought, but this is not easy, it may not make sense, but I am trying anyway..

Nevertheless this is one aspect only of a much more complex process of course as you know it ...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 04 May 2018.

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Sat, 05 May 2018 #146
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1105 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
thought will often if not always try such "tricks" because it is in its programming.

Yes.

Ok, I'll check the other thread.

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