Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Was Buddha's sathipattana meditation originally same as what K taught?


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Sun, 15 Apr 2018 #61
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Yes,this requires understanding the network of thought.

Yes it does and in my case I surely did not search for it at all, like for all other "visions" , insights, revelation....
( all those words to say that it was entirely involuntary and took place by , for once and more since, being the suffering itself which is nothing extra ordinary at all as this is precisely the actual state of human thought since some time)....
.....in the field of suffering; searching means thought is 100% at work..and thought can only imagine what it desires most taking no account at all about facts of course, and nothing else...then imagining about some fanciful happiness is only an escape of a life of suffering etc..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 #62
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1067 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, you can't search for any new vision or change. Simply because you don't know what it is& if you know it then you already have it & so it is part of suffering.

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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 #63
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Yes, you can't search for any new vision or change. Simply because you don't know what it is& if you know it then you already have it & so it is part of suffering.

Hello Kapila, agreed yes. But as things as never frozen, we are again back with suffering under it various forms...and again thought like for 15 000 past years is going to do the same with the subject: trying to escape and negate the fact by all means...which is meant to fail all the time, producing more and more problems and suffering..

As a species we are clearly turning round and round in circle here since millennium..and nothing seems to change at all apart for the worse if this is possible, as I see it all around the planet, apart from exception which can be anyone anonymous probably totally unknown somewhere on this planet...

in a world fed with entertaining and the idea of some sort of immortality, etc...we are not ready for anything different, and as I see the process behind this, it is going to keep increasing until eventually we get the point the Origin is indirectly trying to force us to go towards.

What is behind suffering is a dialogue originated indirectly from the Origin toward us..of course no one listen..
why indirectly ? because as I have been showed that, the Origin being out of time cannot interfere directly with time in this matter ...what is of time must create a situation allowing what is not of time to penetrate it somehow absolutely unknown...

that is one purpose of suffering ..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 16 Apr 2018 #64
Thumb_9204480_n03 French Touch France 54 posts in this forum Offline

Did K taught any kind of meditation? Not from what I read during 36 years.

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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 #65
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1067 posts in this forum Offline

French Touch wrote:
Did K taught any kind of meditation? Not from what I read during 36 years.

K did not say sit & do this, that etc. He pointed out to the futility in systems as meditation. He said meditation is not any system.

So he addressed the issue of meditation. It is not that you do something. Sometimes he said the inquiry into yourself is the beginning of meditation, part of meditation. On other occasions he said meditation begins when all confusion has been cleared.

My understanding reading K is there cannot be any such thing as teaching meditation. Then it becomes a system which very, very, immature & childish.Such an exercise will be completely meaningless.

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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 #66
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1067 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
it is going to keep increasing until eventually we get the point the Origin is indirectly trying to force us to go towards.

Well rather dangerous to put it like that. Are you saying some outside agency is at work?

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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 #67
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

it is going to keep increasing until eventually we get the point the Origin is indirectly trying to force us to go towards.

Well rather dangerous to put it like that. Are you saying some outside agency is at work?

Hello, no for me it is not dangerous at all, why would it be ?? I know k introduced such statement by dozen, depends on how one functions with oneself...nothing but insane man is dangerous in fact ..and they lead us with our consent.

Even a simple logic properly and accurately used ( something hardly done since ages) up to its maximum potential shows to oneself in a few seconds that there is an origin beyond time, meaning which was always there in the universe we are concerned with, I play that game since young and it always shows the same result, not that all is known of course, but when thought works in its field only this idea that all is know does not appear or if it does it is immediately seen as bullshit.

Adding to that my own involuntary experiments( so called kundalini and more, I say so called as all what I read about that so far seems to show that those talking about it never lives it in fact, of course there sure are some genuine person in the matter) so I know somehow something about that, here again k has brought some numerous statement including like it is said in the Tao that the one who says he knows does not know and the one who knows does not say..so we could conclude with such statement that k did not k know anything at all, which is untrue for me ..we must be more than very careful too with others' words indeed..

So I lived those weird moments with this presence not of thought, I have to say it in order to mention from where I talk..like some.Incidentally I have realised by meeting some concerned person about that that the so called NDE, near death experiences, are in fact not at all near death experiences but living experiences..

so now put out of the way the main concern of your answer: Are you saying some outside agency is at work?

My answer is that I just have not one single clue about it !
It could well be a wrong question again ask by the analytical thinking process, well it is in fact for me now that I write that down; Look here thought in its view have the pretension to know everything or try to...

I immediately put that aside inner/outer matter. As inner,outer or wherever , does not matter as it works when the right conditions are met by the brain-mind...

I never asked such question to myself, like inner/outer, the main thing is that I perfectly know that I will not find any answer to this by myself, somehow I have learnt that and it still functions from time to time in such matters.It is part of our other capacities, they do not depend at all on thought, on the contrary as thought prevents them to function.

thought has no access for me to such knowledge which is not an accumulative knowledge , but the one type which can come to oneself as it wishes thought what k calls insight, we can call that revelation or whatever word suits oneself here, depending on one culture and first language.

So back to your question, so far, I certainly can say for myself to myself and sharing that here as much as possible , that I know that there potentially is much more than thought for us in our so called lives,

that this "more" is usually not functioning anymore and that that "something X" wherever it is ,whatever it is , has created the conditions for us to go beyond thought meaning that "It" knows about it of course...

this X is not able to directly interfere as if some origin X beyond time is interfering to create us as a kind of finish product being immersed in this sort of beyond time peaceful energy, then it would not work at all as then we would be again matter only so again caught in time so in suffering as far as thought is concerned.

This drives us logically to the point that , it is us , aka thought , which must create the conditions for such awakening to take place and what is behind suffering is the catalyst for that, it could actually be the only one, but this I do not know..

Remove suffering we have not one single reason, motive, etc to attempt to change anything at all..

Thought must accept to shut up....

this brings us right back to some k's statement like we have only thought to start with

etc..

cheerio..no re reading..

Dan ...........

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Tue, 17 Apr 2018 #68
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

And k is helping us in the matter with today's quote:

We sometimes experience a state of tranquillity, of extraordinary clarity and joy, when the mind is serene and still. These moments come unexpectedly, without invitation. Such experiencing is not the result of calculated, disciplined thought. It occurs when thought is self-forgetful, when thought has ceased to become, when the mind is not in the conflict of its own self-created problems. So our problem is not how such a creative, joyous moment shall come and be maintained, but how to bring about the cessation of self-expansive thought, which does not imply self-immolation but the transcending of the activities of the self. When a machine is revolving very fast, as a fan with several blades, the separate parts are not visible but appear as one. So the self, the 'me', seems to be a unified entity, but if its activities can be slowed down, then we shall perceive that it is not a unified entity, but made up of many separate and contending desires and pursuits. These separate wants and hopes, fears and joys make up the self. The self is a term to cover craving in its different forms. To understand the self there must be an awareness of craving in its multiple aspects. The passive awareness, the choiceless discernment, reveal the ways of the self, bringing freedom from bondage. Thus when the mind is tranquil and free of its own activity and chatter, there is supreme wisdom.

One point, a pity that k did not bring the proper use of what is behind suffering as THE catalyst in such statement as for me something vital so is missing..but this is an extract from a talk so it can be somewhere else ..
Having said that if one has read k intensively with a good memory, it is said as such about suffering as a catalyst very often, but not said that way at all, he never used the word catalyst...k seemed to have solved suffering the proper way for me on an ongoing bases as it occurs..it explains it..that would need more but not my cup of tea to go any further into that.

Dan ...........

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Wed, 18 Apr 2018 #69
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1067 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Even a simple logic properly and accurately used ( something hardly done since ages) up to its maximum potential shows to oneself in a few seconds that there is an origin beyond time,

Yes, but the logic was certainly not simple for me! But this can be logically worked out, yes.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
one who says he knows does not know and the one who knows does not say.

Dan I don't think it is that the one who knows does not say. It is what they see is beyond knowing. You cannot know it. Nobody. You can only live it at that moment. It is changing so fast that you cannot recognize it as such & such for it to be in the realm of known.It is not of memory simply because it cannot go to memory.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
thought has no access for me to such knowledge which is not an accumulative knowledge , but the one type which can come to oneself as it wishes thought what k calls insight, we can call that revelation or whatever word suits oneself here, depending on one culture and first language.

Yes. We may be seeing some things directly.

I want to read the remaining part again.....

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Wed, 18 Apr 2018 #70
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

one who says he knows does not know and the one who knows does not say.

Dan I don't think it is that the one who knows does not say. It is what they see is beyond knowing. You cannot know it. Nobody. You can only live it at that moment. It is changing so fast that you cannot recognize it as such & such for it to be in the realm of known.It is not of memory simply because it cannot go to memory.

Good morning , well to me as it is probably afternoon here you live..

So that is interesting, let me be more precise as I may have been mixed up ?

Lao Tzu quote is :He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.

as to k, I quoted it from memory as someone here quoted such statement a few years ago saying it was from k but I did not find it but so far only this in Spanish

K: Saber es ser ignorante. No saber es el comienzo de la sabiduría.”

Krishnamurti To know is to be ignorant. Not to know is the beginning of wisdom..

So the way you bring things is perfectly clear ...thanks for that..

Dan ...........

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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 #71
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1067 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.

Yes, this seems to mean what you said surely.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Krishnamurti To know is to be ignorant. Not to know is the beginning of wisdom..

Yes, this is what K says. It is great because it is not possible to know psychologically. Things change all the time & the man who knows is anchored to something in the past which has since undergone change.

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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 #72
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1067 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
that this "more" is usually not functioning anymore and that that "something X" wherever it is ,whatever it is , has created the conditions for us to go beyond thought meaning that "It" knows about it of course...

Well if you consider K's life there is much to support this.TS(Theosophical Society) was formed in 1875. 20 years before K was born to prepare the world for the coming world teacher. Then Dr.Annie was talking about a world teacher long before K was discovered I believe.Before her Lady Blavetsky too talked of same i believe.

And Leadbeater discovered K & he said was the vehicle for the coming world teacher.They said it was for Lord Maithree's consciousness to manifest & preach. Leadbeater is reported have said that after he first saw boy K , those great beings kept saying repeatedly as he was returning, 'You found the boy. I've already started manifesting'.

And K said he realized & preached all over the world although he dissolved the Order of the Star.K became, without a shade of doubt, a religious teacher of the highest distinction.

So facts speak for themselves. Somebody certainly knew what was coming!!

But I don't think this is God. That is not there. Logic is tough but I think this universe at the base is full without a container. That is what K called the 'ground'.(Ending of Time talks of this) A cup can be empty. Then something can be put in it. But if something is full but without a cup then it goes beyond our comprehension.But K talked about beyond space.You cannot talk about a creation of something like that. That is timelessly there.

But there are greater beings. I don't have any doubt about this. However the whole point is we have to do our job. I don't think anybody, greater being or whatever can free us. We need to begin from scratch & do the job ourselves.

But K said few changed people will affect the consciousness of man. So if such human beings are there, in close proximity to them consciousness of others will get affected. That is energy in consciousness of a changed person may affect the crystallized energy of an adjacent person making the consciousness of the other person more of energy making understanding much easier.

Of course Dan, possibilities.

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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 #73
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

Krishnamurti To know is to be ignorant. Not to know is the beginning of wisdom..

Yes, this is what K says. It is great because it is not possible to know psychologically. Things change all the time & the man who knows is anchored to something in the past which has since undergone change.

Good ...whatever time it is ...

Well here I would like to be more specific and define...in my view based on what I have experienced one cannot wipe up all memories, if that was really the case one would die within days , OK that sounds obvious but obvious or not does not matter in what I am trying to bring ...

Some part of some experiences , so collied kundalini and deeper moments than that included , some experiences beyond thought, anything beyond thought leaves a mark in the brain mind....k somewhere says so too, and this time I am sure 100% to have read that somewhere in one of k's book...

For the sake of analysing , if I remove all memories left of such moments, I would forget too that to leave suffering alone properly is the only right thing to do and that it may or not lead to kundalini or whatever or nothing at all...we as thinking human having no say in this matter, our only main concern is to solve problems, all problems properly when they occur ..

It took me 40 years to understand that about suffering clearly....if I do not bring that into account then if it takes 40 more years to again get it, then I am dead...

k is not clear on that yet as usual he mentioned what i am saying here somewhere with no insistence on it at all..

all memories are not bad at all, some are even vital and needed, not talking here in he practical fields where they are vital ..

So I find such statement by k very dangerous, not as such because behind that for him there is a lot of experiences, but the way it is inevitably going to be interpreted...I stick on that..it may bring oneself to another perfectest catch 22 ...when we already are totally stuck with tons of
them

Dan ...........

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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 #74
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

that this "more" is usually not functioning anymore and that that "something X" wherever it is ,whatever it is , has created the conditions for us to go beyond thought meaning that "It" knows about it of course...

Well if you consider K's life there is much to support this.TS(Theosophical Society) was formed in 1875. 20 years before K was born to prepare the world for the coming world teacher. Then Dr.Annie was talking about a world teacher long before K was discovered I believe.Before her Lady Blavatsky too talked of same i believe.

And Leadbeater discovered K & he said was the vehicle for the coming world teacher.They said it was for Lord Maithree's consciousness to manifest & preach. Leadbeater is reported have said that after he first saw boy K , those great beings kept saying repeatedly as he was returning, 'You found the boy. I've already started manifesting'.

And K said he realized & preached all over the world although he dissolved the Order of the Star.K became, without a shade of doubt, a religious teacher of the highest distinction.

So facts speak for themselves. Somebody certainly knew what was coming!!

Hello again, sorry to quote all that but it is important to do so ...

so yes indeed this seems really right.

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
but I don't think this is God. That is not there. Logic is tough but I think this universe at the base is full without a container. That is what K called the 'ground'.(Ending of Time talks of this) A cup can be empty. Then something can be put in it. But if something is full but without a cup then it goes beyond our comprehension.But K talked about beyond space. You cannot talk about a creation of something like that. That is timelessly there.

Well the word god means now for me: " ultimate origin", as there necessarily is an ultimate origin to actually everything is my perception, or the ground yes , then it is easier to understand something, but the word has been so corrupted so that behind it there is a heavy burden and a series of automatic images and reactions, but not for me where god means origin.

I do not know about the universe being full without a container, I have seen nothing in this matter, yet as a child a repetitive nightmare for month was bringing me to the limits of matter and I have for myself a sort of view on that. But here no certitude...of course sometimes we know things..k says this and the exact opposite in many places, this is why it may lead people to some dangerous catch 22 ..like better not read k at all...this is why I did not encourage anyone around me to read his books

anyway I find your input "bloody" interesting ..;-)...and I mean that..so thanks for the input here.

you say: if something is full but without a cup then it goes beyond our comprehension...

that goes along with the dream-nightmare , the unknown around matter not being matter, not being visible was totally unknown ...that was the "cup" ???..but here I am terribly and consciously aware of the danger of analysing so I do not analyse, I do not try to understand at all as I know it is a pure waste of time and energy , I have learned that and this brings us right back to the previous part above about the known...as if I do not use this known I am back to when I was 10 years old not having any clue about all that...

there is some learning so some memory in some very specific mental fields only which are vital to be used up to a point , it is up to one to know what and when..so much for k's ""not to know is the beginning of wisdom""..

but mind you this is not at all in contradiction with k's global work..but I cannot bring all the elements here as that would be far too time consuming and complex..and between us as I am not trying to convince so in my view that is enough for now..

you say : But K talked about beyond space. You cannot talk about a creation of something like that. That is timelessly there.

well yes I can, why having such limitations, if it is false well it will be seen as false , I never thought that way..my wife who is so often limiting herself in any fields knows about my comments on that, and since 25 years she still does not get it :-)) yet when caught on the spot she effectively sees that it is what she is doing so ..:-)) ..but she does not use this learning....again back to : " not to know is the beginning of wisdom"..that is certainly not universally true ..

Creation is when what has no time creates what is of time somehow unknown which possibly will remain unknown unless one has a vision originating from what is not of time showing it..not my case I am telling you !! Such vision may even be useless but just a vision not to be used but seen...again logic says that ,here it is a conceptual view, but believe me it is a very powerful one..but even here we usually globally do not use logic properly...

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
But there are greater beings. I don't have any doubt about this. However the whole point is we have to do our job. I don't think anybody, greater being or whatever can free us. We need to begin from scratch & do the job ourselves.

yes like you I have no doubt about that ..one "being" I know nothing about was there long ago....nothing like k of course..I have not single clue about where she was, who she was etc and I can remain with this unknown with no problem ..I know some people who had such weird impossible experience that even their moment are totally overwhelming others again and again years after, one would not read about it anywhere...unless of course in k's youth weird moments...that is on the same wavelength and is nothing extra ordinary as such as it was meant to be our lives ...

to be more wrong than us is impossible ...;-(

again agreed that we have to do our job and not being too carried away but such fantastic stories, yet who knows what brings goodness ??? not me..

I think that we are now far beyond the moment to be careful with all that..some will clearly try to blow up most people on this planet and the time to hide oneself behind clever koan, clever saying, allegories, hermetic systems etc is clearly over as it did not work ..all that had been a failure

for me anything is fine to try , unless what we do now as a species like competition, business, war, lies, crimes, stealing, propaganda, torture etc all being the outcome of a suffering and limited thought ..again it seems obvious yet not all when watching the state of this poor planet ..

back to suffering..

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
But K said few changed people will affect the consciousness of man. So if such human beings are there, in close proximity to them consciousness of others will get affected. That is energy in consciousness of a changed person may affect the crystallized energy of an adjacent person making the consciousness of the other person more of energy making understanding much easier.

Of course Dan, possibilities.

yes agreed with you, the potential is there, no doubt either about that ....

between us as no one listen , my own job in that matter for now is to tell about suffering , I was born with it so had to go into unless kill myself ...up to anyone to find out what one must be up to...

recently one of my daughter was talking about her "capacities" in an open manner not moaning about it but being factual , and all that ,saying that she did not find herself having some interesting capacities, and she is naturally remarkably and naturally cooperative, this is one capacity we do not have at birth as it is not included in thought capacities and I just said to her that for me she had a remarkable capacity in this matter..one which alone can solve most human problems , not all of them of course..

she gave me a nice big hug..

we stay on that one...

nice to exchange with you..it reminds me long talks I had with one of my best friend called Buddhadhassa lyanage ..

cheerio

no re reading !

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Thu, 19 Apr 2018.

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Fri, 20 Apr 2018 #75
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1067 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Well here I would like to be more specific and define...in my view based on what I have experienced one cannot wipe up all memories, if that was really the case one would die within days ,

Yes. You cannot wipe out memory. You can only wipe out psychological memory as far as I understand.For example if you call me idiot, there are two things involved. Memory of your statement & the hurt. I think it is only the hurt we can wipe out. Your statement will be in memory.

This I find interesting. Most people think you cannot use past memory if you are religious. This might be a misunderstanding.I think you can without hatred. You cannot associate a terrorist.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
anything beyond thought leaves a mark in the brain mind....k somewhere says so too, and this time I am sure 100% to have read that somewhere in one of k's book...

Well K was once telling Dr.Bohm that he woke up one night & felt that the mind has touched all sources of energy & that there was nothing beyond that. That is called the 'absolute' I believe. He told Dr.Bohm that that must have some affect on the whole organism. You see there he was clearly talking about something beyond thought but he said it must have some affect on the whole organism.

However, you see, if you experience something that does not become memory, you can state the fact. You have memory that it happened. But you cannot re-generate it. Say for example if you have joy you cannot experience that again by thinking about it again whereas something like anger you can re-experience.But joy may be affecting the organism like for longevity, for better health etc.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
It took me 40 years to understand that about suffering clearly....if I do not bring that into account then if it takes 40 more years to again get it, then I am dead...

This raises an interesting question.Do you think understanding need memory for it to be part of life? Not that memory is not there, your description. Or is it more vital, living, than just mere information?

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Sat, 21 Apr 2018 #76
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
You can only wipe out psychological memory as far as I understand.For example if you call me idiot, there are two things involved. Memory of your statement & the hurt. I think it is only the hurt we can wipe out. Your statement will be in memory.

Hello Kapila..

Well here I am not too sure at all about that, I mean for myself, as there are many points as such seen or not in k's work which do not speak out.
I am trying to dialogue from experiments and so on, whatever value it may or not have beyond the one it has for me. Yet after re reading your words it makes some sense, especially that the hurt can go away..

but even here I question a few things..if one call me idiot, OK there is immediate reaction of the superficial part of thought looking in its storage where "I" is wonderful and smart, this creates a conflict and whatever happens usually is to violently meet this conflict like any other...as I do not like it, but there is a third thing which is I really may be an idiot ,so we do not have two things involved but more, hurt, memory that you said I am an idiot, and whatever I like it or not the fact that I am an idiot because this or that I am not an idiot because that , and here such analyses can be made with facts or with imagination etc..then one may rather look at the statement and sees it validity in terms of factually true/ not true..then the matter is solved..by the seeing of the fact if possible as here it is a very simple problem..what's about hidden complex problems ??

the hurt is one form of suffering and my own approach of suffering is somehow to let it have its own life..which constantly thought refuses...

then it is a global approach of all that..Suffering is THE subject, it says something, it talks , it is a symptom, and and and a catalyst...it is a great tool if one can learn the use of it...this tool is here to help thought to see what it is and what it does to us...from daily suffering to mass murders called wars ....

Dan ...........

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Sat, 21 Apr 2018 #77
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
This I find interesting. Most people think you cannot use past memory if you are religious. This might be a misunderstanding.I think you can without hatred. You cannot associate a terrorist.

Well I do not get this point I think. In fact that would be more a matter of knowing or not...like "I believe" means in fact , "well I do not know"..and thought incapable to analyse anything unknown meaning not previously memorised, transform any unknown in a suitable know, a fantasy so, for itself in its storage compartment,, then it analyses ...then god is so created..as a fiction..

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

anything beyond thought leaves a mark in the brain mind....k somewhere says so too, and this time I am sure 100% to have read that somewhere in one of k's book...

Well K was once telling Dr.Bohm that he woke up one night & felt that the mind has touched all sources of energy & that there was nothing beyond that. That is called the 'absolute' I believe. He told Dr.Bohm that that must have some affect on the whole organism. You see there he was clearly talking about something beyond thought but he said it must have some affect on the whole organism.

However, you see, if you experience something that does not become memory, you can state the fact. You have memory that it happened. But you cannot re-generate it. Say for example if you have joy you cannot experience that again by thinking about it again whereas something like anger you can re-experience.But joy may be affecting the organism like for longevity, for better health etc.

Well many people have had such moments, moments as k mentions in the first part of your quote..this is to say that it was meant to be part of our lives , for all of us potentially of course, but it is not the case anymore, especially when people are very so called educated where thought is so worshipped as the absolute god in its own eyes, the narcissistic perversion is right there...since thought took it over and brought disasters on this planet personally and globally..our problem is thought I am sure of it...sometimes there is no doubt...k said once or more: why don't you know? etc...

You know anyone on this planet can directly relate to a talk about suffering..as we all know and live that permanently ...apart from exceptions...moments and persons..

agreed that what has happened once at this level will not happen twice , one so cannot re-regenerate it yes.

About joy , such moments we mention are beyond all words, like it is not joy , nor happiness , nor fantastic , nor incredible , nor wonderful etc..it has absolutely not one quality of the thinking process, it is much more simple and is contentment...then fear and suffering are not....k often spoke to us from that "corner" if I may put things that way, I am afraid that if one does not get that very point somehow by oneself then one will get lost in translation..because thought will take all what he mentioned and try to reach it...this will amplify the disaster in fact...my view.

Well it seems to make sense that joy as you mention can affect longevity..well of course just said it I remember people full of hatred and sadness etc having lived for a very long time...and full of joy people having had a short life...well again there seem to be no absolute rules, not surprising of course..

Dan ...........

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Sat, 21 Apr 2018 #78
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
This I find interesting. Most people think you cannot use past memory if you are religious. This might be a misunderstanding.I think you can without hatred. You cannot associate a terrorist.

Well I am not sure that I do get this point I think. In fact that would be more a matter of knowing or not...like "I believe" means in fact , "well I do not know"..and thought incapable to analyse anything unknown meaning not previously memorised, transform any unknown in a suitable know, a fantasy so, for itself in its storage compartment,, then it analyses ...then god is so created..as a fiction..

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

anything beyond thought leaves a mark in the brain mind....k somewhere says so too, and this time I am sure 100% to have read that somewhere in one of k's book...

Well K was once telling Dr.Bohm that he woke up one night & felt that the mind has touched all sources of energy & that there was nothing beyond that. That is called the 'absolute' I believe. He told Dr.Bohm that that must have some affect on the whole organism. You see there he was clearly talking about something beyond thought but he said it must have some affect on the whole organism.

However, you see, if you experience something that does not become memory, you can state the fact. You have memory that it happened. But you cannot re-generate it. Say for example if you have joy you cannot experience that again by thinking about it again whereas something like anger you can re-experience.But joy may be affecting the organism like for longevity, for better health etc.

Well many people have had such moments, moments as k mentions in the first part of your quote..this is to say that it was meant to be part of our lives , for all of us potentially of course, but it is not the case anymore, especially when people are very so called educated where thought is so worshipped as the absolute god in its own eyes, the narcissistic perversion is right there...since thought took it over and brought disasters on this planet personally and globally..our problem is thought I am sure of it...sometimes there is no doubt...k said once or more: why don't you know? etc...

You know anyone on this planet can directly relate to a talk about suffering..as we all know and live that permanently ...apart from exceptions...moments and persons..

agreed that what has happened once at this level will not happen twice , one so cannot re-regenerate it yes.

About joy , such moments we mention are beyond all words, like it is not joy , nor happiness , nor fantastic , nor incredible , nor wonderful etc..it has absolutely not one quality of the thinking process, it is much more simple and is contentment...then fear and suffering are not....k often spoke to us from that "corner" if I may put things that way, I am afraid that if one does not get that very point somehow by oneself then one will get lost in translation..because thought will take all what he mentioned and try to reach it...this will amplify the disaster in fact...my view.

Well it seems to make sense that joy as you mention can affect longevity..well of course just said it I remember people full of hatred and sadness etc having lived for a very long time...and full of joy people having had a short life...well again there seem to be no absolute rules, not surprising of course..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 21 Apr 2018.

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Sat, 21 Apr 2018 #79
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

It took me 40 years to understand
that about suffering clearly....if I
do not bring that into account then if
it takes 40 more years to again get
it, then I am dead...

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
This raises an interesting
question.Do you think understanding
need memory for it to be part of life?
Not that memory is not there, your
description. Or is it more vital,
living, than just mere information?

Well very interesting questioning here thanks.
Well I must take a long road to try to say what I see here, sorry but it is necessary.

I start from those moments beyond thought where this contentment is, there are absolutely unmissable for what they are..

And k in my view , all the time, most of the time, seems to speak from such specific moments, whether it is recalling what is left of that whether it is actually taking place when speaking...one must know or admit somehow that in such moments there is no fear, no suffering, no sorrow , no pain, no , no ,no etc ..then the difficulty of k may have been that he was far too beyond our everyday thinking ..that the gap between us was too immense to be filled, I am inquiring here not delivery certitudes.

On one hand k talks from beyond thought , on the other hand we listen with the thinking process pretending to factually observe etc , a thinking process which will find in k's words a remarkable source of more infatuation of itself , more escapes, more of everything , I have done that full time of course so knows that well and I have seen long ago that self inflicted suffering ,actually I have probably fallen into all the intellectual traps...bringing more and more suffering...up to the point: suicide or something else..then as I am here it was "something else" which I speak of a lot on websites or in real life when meeting people having too gone too far into oblivion suffering, if and when they are willing to of course...

most people would panic in fact , alas. the fear of fear is a terrible thing and when one says that this word fear means nothing so use escape or running away, avoiding etc instead, then already it is a different situation right away, I have dear becomes: well I am again trying to escape something an it does not work..

I have not forgotten the question about memory , there seem to be at least two types of memory, one is for practical matters , all of them, building, sewing, sowing gardening, tools etc , this is where we are 100% caught since ages apart from the usual exceptions of course (moments and people..), and the other memory is not about practical matters, it is about anything but that..

and this last memory for me clearly is there all the time if needed...

If each time I meet suffering as I already said ,I must again and again re learn all of it from scratch, well if so then we are surely totally doomed as a species. if one takes k's statement " starting anew" to the letter and out of the context, then again one will be caught in another catch 22, not created by k but by the thinking process using a statement it does not get , using it as a method to reach its personal ultimate desire to be let's say enlightened...

so yes there is some memory, not practical ones, which are there to help when needed...it can be as simple as the presence a tiny light which is there for oneself in time of absolute despair, because one knows that there is a way out as well as one knows that one must not try to find a way out but but one must let what is behind suffering be..and when this is done once it can not be done twice in the same way...so here is one person lost in despair knowing all that , knowing that at some stage all what there will be in one's life will be despair and nothing else...

this is what turns on our other capacities as they wished..and it can act only when thought shuts up sufficiently or even if it is still chattering when thought does not even trust itself anymore and strangely finds itself capable to hear its own bla bla without listening to it anymore..for a second or more..even for a second will bring something else into the situation

what really take place in such moment is that thought have stopped running away..then one is not caught in duality and analysing, there is no more me on one hand and suffering on the other hand ,there me which is suffering..

this is why suffering and rather what lies behind all that , is vital for our mental...I must add that suffering is not at all incidental..or is there by chance..it is part of a complex process to bring thought down to its knees , allowing our other capacities which are not turned on at birth, allowing them to start functioning...

If I have seen right, however I am not sure here , suffering contains a countdown , a limit...some people like Graham Hancock, Jacques Grimault etc say that we as a species already have lived some near total extinction, resetting the "clock" ...and I add to that : possibly due to this countdown when we are too wrong too long..but here it is only guesses...yet I see it as a real possibility...in such moments only the so called gatherers hunters ( what a condescending notion ) will survive mainly...but not only...I guess that the way we are heading towards is the one of another resetting ..we have gone too far , but in fact it is never too far ,I have learnt that when deep down into the aches of sorrow and all that, the Origin is not like what we have become.

K spoke of a very rare totally insane moment in human history that we are living in, some 50 years ago

however if k is right, for me he is but ?? when he mentions that we only have thought to start with , then normally here the analyser will go in a blank mood like " I do not know" ..as it has no memory here to analyse ..again it will try to sort of run away instead of staying with I do not know...bingo back to suffering..all this is juts an outcome of its program...when meeting the unknown thought must shut up..

etc

well that is already too much..so I shut up too..regards..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 21 Apr 2018.

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Sat, 21 Apr 2018 #80
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 45 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
.Suffering is THE subject, it says something, it talks , it is a symptom, and and and a catalyst...it is a great tool if one can learn the use of it..

salut Daniel!

et oui c'est la base... c'est là dans notre quotidien ... un formidable support pour "l'éveil"...

sans souffrance, ce site n'existerait pas ;-)

bises à plus!

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2 days ago #81
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1067 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
.if one call me idiot, OK there is immediate reaction of the superficial part of thought looking in its storage where "I" is wonderful and smart, this creates a conflict and whatever happens usually is to violently meet this conflict like any other...as I do not like it, but there is a third thing which is I really may be an idiot ,

Dan wait, first there is the statement that someone is an idiot. Then the brain first sees the meaning of that sentence. Then it is met by the self image, is it not? It is the self image that gets hurt, is it not? So the question here is can we be free of the self image which is the psyche we have built up? Now although we may end the image still the brain must function & recognize the meaning of the sentence, is it not?

So we cannot consider whether the statement is a fact or not.Because then we allow the image to come in & is the image a truth or a comparative notion we have built up? If so how to ascertain whether the statement is a fact?-if comparative it is fictitious.

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2 days ago #82
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1067 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Well I do not get this point I think.

I mean memory of incidents we have & we can use it for day today functioning.

For example K took Rajagopal to courts for transferring property donated to K for R's personnel ownership. K's point was he was responsible to the people who donated the money to use it for the purpose they donated it for. Otherwise it would be cheating the donors. So he said to recover the money.

Now the court case went on for years. K had the memory of what happened, that R embezzled.He took action. But the difference will be , without the image, any action will be without hatred, aversion or anger but out of necessity.

You know K even said that had he known R was still a member of TS he wouldn't have involved him with his work. This is what I am saying. Memory of what happened, of all the incidents, will be there. You can objectively think considering everything & act. But without hatred or repulsion.

Surely a known thief you cannot recommend to guard a bank. If you don't have the image you will help him, help him get over all that, but you can consider his actions & take decisions.

Is it possible to function without chaos otherwise?

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2 days ago #83
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

.Suffering is THE subject, it says something, it talks , it is a symptom, and and and a catalyst...it is a great tool if one can learn the use of it..

salut Daniel!

et oui c'est la base... c'est là dans notre quotidien ... un formidable support pour "l'éveil"...

sans souffrance, ce site n'existerait pas ;-)

bises à plus!

Salut richard

je me demandais il y a un ou deux jours, vais je voir Richard passer, et bien voila c'est fait..oui on se rejoint et je dois dire je crois de plus en plus...je pense même qu'il y a tout un dialogue a créer sur ce sujet d'une manière totalement directe, non alambiquée, non complexe mais seulement à partir d’expériences et-ou avec comme départ un moment de souffrance, mais voila la souffrance ordinaire de tous les jours n'est même plus perçue et comme tu dis oui c'est là dans notre quotidien..exactement...sur le sujet il y a un boulevard énorme, vaste etc...pour tous..c'est vital en fait...

Sans souffrance plus de kinfonet résume tous..

bises et à plus également..

Dan ...........

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2 days ago #84
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 45 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
'il y a tout un dialogue a créer sur ce sujet d'une manière totalement directe, non alambiquée, non complexe mais seulement à partir d’expériences et-ou avec comme départ un moment de souffrance, mais voila la souffrance ordinaire de tous les jours n'est même plus perçue

coucou Dan,

c'est clair...

les choses sont à la base assez simples en fait, je considère je pense, que le point de départ est une question de sensations (5 sens), qui sont traitées sous l'attachement (agréables), l’aversion (désagréables) et neutres. "moi/je" est aussi une sensation, on a beau dire que c'est de la pensée, mais ok, certe y a pleins de bouquin et même ici de dialogues sur le sujet mais ça (la pensée cristallisée moi/je) découle et génère à la fois une (des) sensation (s).

donc oui le "laboratoire" est ouvert du réveil à l'endormissement!! pour peu que l'on y soit attentif afin de laisser être pour observer les faits... le fait qu'au delà de je souffre, j'ai mal, je ne suis pas bien, "fait chier", "quel con" etc... il y a une sensation... et vécue telle quelle, et bien ça change tout...

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2 days ago #85
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 45 posts in this forum Offline

et comment veux tu que l'humain s'en sorte s'il voue son existence à élaborer une vie remplie de sensations agréables ce qui revient à mettre un couvercle sur la solution...

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2 days ago #86
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Dan wait, first there is the statement that someone is an idiot. Then the brain first sees the meaning of that sentence. Then it is met by the self image, is it not? It is the self image that gets hurt, is it not? So the question here is can we be free of the self image which is the psyche we have built up? Now although we may end the image still the brain must function & recognize the meaning of the sentence, is it not?

So now back to the first post..

Well I wrote a long post when I realised that it was not it, and so I will come back to it later on, because it needs a lot of time and energy to properly go into all that ...as well as it needs the proper mood to do so..and this will not be today..so talk to you soon and thanks again..;-)

cheerio

Dan ...........

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2 days ago #87
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
le fait qu'au delà de je souffre, j'ai mal, je ne suis pas bien, "fait chier", "quel con" etc... il y a une sensation... et vécue telle quelle, et bien ça change tout...

Oui c'est clair en ce qui me concerne..et ceci totalement by-pass l'analyse...certains pourrait y voir un processus , une fonction...certains ;-)

et certains en allant plus loin pourraient même oser l’hypothèse que dés lors le fait de souffrir qui est en fait un problème à solutionner ( cause ou origine n'ayant alors pas d'importance en soi à ce moment précis) n'est non seulement pas innocent mais de plus est en quelque sorte un garde fou et une pancarte qui dit: vas y Jeannot c'est par là mais pas par là..une sorte de guide...

n'ayant plus cela, alors les fous sont lâchés et il n'y a aucune direction..çà c'est nous depuis un moment..

richard viillar wrote:
les choses sont à la base assez simples en fait, je considère je pense, que le point de départ est une question de sensations (5 sens), qui sont traitées sous l'attachement (agréables), l’aversion (désagréables) et neutres. "moi/je" est aussi une sensation, on a beau dire que c'est de la pensée, mais OK, certes y a pleins de bouquins et même ici de dialogues sur le sujet mais ça (la pensée cristallisée moi/je) découle et génère à la fois une (des) sensation (s).

Sensation j'aime ou j'aime pas oui + neutre, comme l'analyse des domaines pratique avec le oui/non + je ne sais pas..sauf que ce programme ne marchant plus bien ou en dehors de son domaine qui n'est pas le mental pur, va alors créer cette sorte de cristallisation comme tu dis, pas facile à saisir que cela nom de Dan!!
mais là je me demande si cette cristallisation n'est pas elle aussi une autre illusion de plus ,ceci dans le sens où , cela apparaît comme cela mais il me semble voir derrière en fait des tonnes de cristallisations liées à la peur, aux désirs non satisfaits + ou - , aux fuites genre refus de la mort, aux souffrances enfin etc etc etc et que notre je en fait est le résultat aussi bien sur de toutes ces influences dont la plupart sont en fait totalement non perçue par ce qui nous reste en fonction dans notre cerveau et qui est la pensée analytique superficielle ..

cela semble encore pire que on peut en penser donc..

mais si on reprends ton propos: le fait qu'au delà de je souffre, j'ai mal, je ne suis pas bien, "fait chier", "quel con" etc... il y a une sensation... et vécue telle quelle, et bien ça change tout...

alors il y a un début de clarté !! il y a une ouverture réelle pour tous potentiellement..

Dan ...........

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2 days ago #88
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 54 posts in this forum Offline

richard viillar wrote:
et comment veux tu que l'humain s'en sorte s'il voue son existence à élaborer une vie remplie de sensations agréables ce qui revient à mettre un couvercle sur la solution...

Oui comment ? je ne vois pas dans ce cas là..ainsi je, un je général, je dois saisir l'ensemble e ce qui est et pas le particulier de mes désirs je veux je veux pas....ce que ne peut faire la pensée analytique, non pas qu'elle soit nulle mais c'est pas son travail tout simplement..

de suite retours à la case je vais mal , qui doit être vécu..ce qui n'est pas fait..

Je sais que on a dit redit etc à propos de cela mais d'une part je pense que cela doit être fait et que c'est ainsi , et d'autre part par moment il y a une clarté imprévue qui est là qui est produite par des échanges...donc quand je le sens ainsi j'écris..ou je communique plus autours de moi...

solution il y a oui...

PS..toujours dans le même travail ? ici rien de particulier..vélo, moto, jardin, bronzage etc et bien sur cette constante nécessité présente en fait depuis mes premiers souvenirs vers 5 ans environ, d'appréhender cette sorte de souffrance-problème qui doit être résolu, qui étant assez constante indique aussi que l'erreur fut et est encore monumentale ..mais tout ceci s'apaise grandement et me laisse aussi l'impression étrange mais absolument pas dérangeante que cela devait, doit, être ainsi et que il y a un travail de fond nécessaire sur ce sujet spécifique ... personnel et global..

du à l'erreur profonde...

mais en gros tout ceci n'a rien d'extra-ordinaire et est parfaitement naturel ..on a juste perdu cela ????

bises irlandaises ...

Dan ...........

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2 days ago #89
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 45 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
je me demande si cette cristallisation n'est pas elle aussi une autre illusion de plus ,ceci dans le sens où , cela apparaît comme cela mais il me semble voir derrière en fait des tonnes de cristallisations liées à la peur, ...

on pourrait parler de cette cristallisation.. qui découle de l'élaboration d'un schéma ou plutôt d'une cartographie... en fait quand un corps se sépare de la matrice avec laquelle il fusionné pendant 9 mois (unité) , il est en danger ainsi le cerveau instinctivement va cartographier le corps pour se protéger. cette cartographie est d'une importance fonctionnelle et vitale, basique pour un moi inné qui pourra se différencier de "l'autre". il n'y a pas de soucis tant que l'atrophie causée par la pensée n'a pas lieu. mais voilà, le cerveau a cristallisé cette cartographie via la pensée et le circuit de la pensée tourne en boucle comme un générateur... bref...

tout ça étant forcément généré par les sens qui donnent les infos qui sont des repères gardes fou du corps pour le cerveau... mais qui sont aussi dénaturés par la cristallisation (illusoire) qui est elle aussi élaborée en tant qu'image et se sentira en danger (peur) face à la moindre remarque, ou sera victime de l'attachement au sensations agréables etc..... attachement, aversions les deux finalement sont de l'ordre de dukkha...

et si on laisse les choses être, alors il est possible d'observer (ça n'est pas toujours chose facile mais c'est possible) et de se relier à la sensation qui est derrière. et la tout est plus clair...

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2 days ago #90
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 45 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
.toujours dans le même travail ?

yes, toujours le même ... ya du taf vu l'évolution de la société et du système... mais on distille de bonnes choses... on essaie

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