Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Krishnamurti and organized religion


Displaying all 21 posts
Page 1 of 1
Sun, 04 Mar 2018 #1
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5222 posts in this forum Offline

Something occurred to me the other day during a discussion with a friend. For most of you it may be obvious but for me it was a revelation of sorts.

Organized religion, at least the three "Western" religions, appear to be based on the assumption that they exist to guide the "individual" toward "eternal bliss" and to mold the person into living a life of "goodness". (Of course pretty much the opposite is the reality. Religions are and have been the main root cause of hate, bigotry, separation and wars for eons.)

But K pointed out that the "individual" is an illusion of thought. So if there is no individual and no eternal, indestructible center we believe is the "soul" or "atman" then what meaning does organized religion have?

It wasn't a revelation that K's statements were not a continuation of organized religion or a support of organized religion but specifically where the diversion is of what K discovered and pointed out and what organized religion pushes.

The discovery that the "self" is an illusion removes the main premise that organized religion is based upon.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 04 Mar 2018.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Sun, 04 Mar 2018 #2
Thumb_stringio BTeulada II Portugal 18 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
It wasn't a revelation that K's statements were not a continuation of organized religion or a support of organized religion but specifically where the diversion is of what K discovered and pointed out and what organized religion pushes.

The discovery that the "self" is an illusion removes the main premise that organized religion is based upon.

Hi Jack, it would seem logical that when the illusion of the self is removed, the premise on which religion is based must necessarily go flying out the window.
The fact is that I doubt that there are many of us who have - in fact - managed to see through that illusion (other than intellectually of course). I think that for 99.99% of us the illusion accompanies us since our early childhood until the day we die. So, if we fail to fully see (id, not mentally) the illusion, the hold of religion may still win us over, even in disguise or under other, less official forms (like the thousands of crazy cults and beliefs that are out there).

However there is another thing - to which K also pointed and that is more 'accessible' to all of us - that, I think, totally removes the premise on which religion is based: and that thing is that, much like carpentry or accounting or any other human activity, religion too is entirely the result of and, as such, unable to go beyond thought. For me, this fact, alone, is enough to send religion flying out the window.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 04 Mar 2018 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5222 posts in this forum Offline

BTeulada II wrote:
However there is another thing - to which K also pointed and that is more 'accessible' to all of us - that, I think, totally removes the premise on which religion is based: and that thing is that, much like carpentry or accounting or any other human activity, religion too is entirely the result of and, as such, unable to go beyond thought. For me, this fact, alone, is enough to send religion flying out the window.

Yes of course. I agree with you. I hope you don't mind if I speculate a little here. I assume you grew up in Portugal and that being a "Catholic" country you may have gone to a Catholic school where the conditioning to accept religion, Catholicism, must have been tremendous. If so I respect even more the intelligence you must have that helped you to overcome that conditioning and see things the way you do.

I was somewhat conditioned by having to repeat the Lord's Prayer everyday in public school but nothing like what happens in a parochial school. And of course almost everyone tacitly, or subliminally, accepts religious dogma because it is so interwoven into the fabric of our respective cultures. And my parents, god bless them, couldn't care less about going to church themselves. They did insist that I attend church (Episcopal) for a few months when I was around nine years old but I came back from church one day and informed them that I was through. That was that. I saw religion for what it was when I was very young. I just wasn't mature enough to know how to express it adequately. I wasn't able to put my perception into words which was probably a good thing.

Nationality, organized religion along with superficial and often contrived racial differences are the three main institutions and beliefs that are keeping us, human beings, home sapiens, separated and killing each other. To me a person is no less a bigot by claiming to be a Christian or Muslim or Hindu, Jewish, etc. than claiming to be white, black, yellow, red, American, British and so on.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 04 Mar 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 04 Mar 2018 #4
Thumb_stringio BTeulada II Portugal 18 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes I attended a Catholic school (actually in Rome, not Portugal) since kindergarden right until the end of high school. However, my parents were not Catholic (actually they were not even religious and back then they had already discovered K and were part of a group who attended K’s talks whenever he was in Rome). They just sent me there because it was and is an excellent school and it was very near my home. The nuns knew my parents were not church goers and were ever so graceful about it; they were really an intelligent, open minded, funny, smart and compassionate bunch. I know this is not the norm for Catholic schools but maybe I was just lucky…

Jack Pine wrote:
I wasn't able to put my perception into words.

I always found perception not filtered by thought to be the most accurate. Once thought filters it and it is translated into words, it seems to lose aliveness and clearness

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 26 Mar 2018 #5
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 345 posts in this forum Offline

Hello again and thank you, Jack, for sharing the above interesting observation/revelation (#1)...seeing this element with you.

I went to a Catholic convent grammar school (aged 11-17 years). The teachers there discouraged us from becoming nuns since academia and using one's formal intelligence - or what they called 'God - given gifts'- to help others in life was emphasised though. They also taught us about other world religions and said that the greatest threat to Catholicism was the Islamic faith/tradition...(that was in the 1970's).

The convent had quite an interesting history, really, since they took Jewish children in who were fleeing the Nazis during WW2. (We were free to learn to speak any other language of our choosing except for German in memory of that particular Holocaust).

I am not a practising Catholic but have inherited a 'Catholic conscience' I guess - however liberal, really, my school was /tried to be.

As you probably know/see already a person who is not a practising Catholic in those terms is said to be a 'lapsed' Catholic. My joke about this is that I am not a lapsed Catholic but rather a collapsed one ! :)

Regards, Katy

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Tue, 27 Mar 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 27 Mar 2018 #6
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5222 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks for your reply. I suppose it is very difficult to leave the religious conditioning, any conditioning for that matter, behind. Religious conditioning seems to be particularly insidious. Most everyone seems to accept the notion of "god", "a higher power" and all the other euphemisms for the personification of power or energy.

There was, and maybe still is, this quote from Krishnamurti Online that I think ties into what I have been saying and is deeply connected to and the reason for belief in "god" and organized religious dogma. It is essential to understand and therefore liberate ourselves from all conditioning.

Reincarnation Is Essentially Egotistic

You want me to give you an assurance that you will live another life, but in that there is no happiness or wisdom. The search for immortality through reincarnation is essentially egotistic, and therefore not true. Your search for immortality is only another form of the desire for the continuance of self-defensive reactions against life and intelligence. Such a craving can only lead to illusion. So what matters is not whether there is reincarnation, but to realize complete fulfillment in the present. And you can do that only when your mind and heart are no longer protecting themselves against life. The mind is cunning and subtle in its self-defense, and it must discern for itself the illusory nature of self-protection. This means that you must think and act completely anew. You must liberate yourself from the net of false values which environment has imposed upon you. There must be utter nakedness. Then there is immortality, reality.
J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Tue, 27 Mar 2018 #7
Thumb_basquiat-boom-for-real-feature-001 Katy Alias United Kingdom 345 posts in this forum Offline

...A most pertinent quote (#6). Thanks again Jack

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 22 Apr 2018 #8
Thumb_9204480_n03 French Touch France 54 posts in this forum Offline

French, I went to catechism. That's the reason I ended my relation with any religion at 9. I remember the city, the street, the place where I made this decision.
The fact they were talking about things absolutely not plausible was enough for me.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 22 May 2018 #9
Thumb_photo saurab marjara India 61 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The discovery that the "self" is an illusion removes the main premise that organized religion is based upon.

Is this your discovery or are you repeating what K said ? What I mean is that have you discovered for yourself that the "self" is an illusion ?

It seems that you have made K into an authority..... just like the religious people have their religious beliefs as their authority.

Now, take Buddhism as an example. Buddhist teachings are what the Buddha taught. Just like the K books are the teachings that K taught. NO difference between K books and Buddhism. It is the same thing. And what's more.... just like K teachings are useful, similarly Buddhist teachings are also useful.

I was born a Hindu, by the way.....

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 22 May 2018 #10
Thumb_photo saurab marjara India 61 posts in this forum Offline

BTeulada II wrote:
However there is another thing - to which K also pointed and that is more 'accessible' to all of us - that, I think, totally removes the premise on which religion is based: and that thing is that, much like carpentry or accounting or any other human activity, religion too is entirely the result of and, as such, unable to go beyond thought. For me, this fact, alone, is enough to send religion flying out the window.

Religions as taught by their founders are very similar to the concept of K teaching. You could say that the K teachings are also unable to go beyond thought, because after all they too are expressed in the form of words/thoughts. So, in this respect, what is the difference between K books and other religious teachings ? Both are based on words/thoughts. Both are pointing at a reality beyond thought, but both are expressed in words, and are unable to go beyond words. I think it was foolish of K to have said that religions are all nonsense. He might as well have not written books, if he felt that way, because one can apply the same logic to his written works... that they are nonsense.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 22 May 2018 #11
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5222 posts in this forum Offline

saurab marjara wrote:
Is this your discovery or are you repeating what K said ?

My post was about what K pointed out and of how it nullifies the very basis of organized religion. Did I discover that thought has invented the self, that thought is not separate from the self? No. All I can claim is that I can see what K was pointing out. If you look at it you can indeed see that we are little more than a collection of experiences and knowledge as memory. If I would have never read K I doubt if that would have occurred to me.

But once again. The post that started this thread was not about what I know or have discovered, other than religion is trying to save something that K pointed out is an illusion. I find that interesting. If you don't that's OK with me.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 22 May 2018 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5222 posts in this forum Offline

saurab marjara wrote:
You could say that the K teachings are also unable to go beyond thought, because after all they too are expressed in the form of words/thoughts. So, in this respect, what is the difference between K books and other religious teachings ?

The difference between what K pointed out and organized religion is very simple. K did not require the listener to have faith, belief or hope in what he said, nor was K promoting dogma, ceremonies, traditions, authoritarianism or a way or method to receive enlightenment. K promoted no ultimate authority, God, nor did he demand that you worship him or any spiritual entity.

K pointed out that only you can discover what is true and no authority pushing what K has pointed out can give you truth. And certainly truth is not owned and therefore cannot be handed out by an organization or institution that claims to be the keeper of Truth. Which is exactly the illusion organized religion is selling to the gullible.

You get the drift? There is no relationship between what K pointed out and the usual trappings of organized religion.

As for the K teachings not going beyond thought. That's your opinion which is based on a very incomplete understanding of what K was pointing out.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 22 May 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 22 May 2018 #13
Thumb_photo saurab marjara India 61 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
As for the K teachings not going beyond thought. That's your opinion which is based on a very incomplete understanding of what K was pointing out.

JUst like K teachings go beyond thought, so do the Buddha'[s teachings go beyond thought, if the listener is the right material.

If the listener is the wrong material, both the Buddha's teachings and K's teachings fail to go beyond thought. This is what I meant.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 22 May 2018 #14
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1281 posts in this forum Offline

You also have to distinguish, I think, between the 'teachings' (a collection of insights?) and what happens to them when they are 'organized'. That's when the 'exploitation' begins, the 'hierarchies', the 'trappings', the hypocrisies ...which have nothing to do with the original insights. The 'Organization' says if you do this, that,or the other thing (methods), you will realize (in time) the truth of what was said. But can anything external to oneself reveal the truth about oneself: the belief, the fear, the greed, etc. except oneself, through one's own insights into oneself? Can 'dependance' on anyone or anything 'help' one to see one's own conditioning?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 22 May 2018.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Tue, 22 May 2018 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5222 posts in this forum Offline

I just happened on this quote today. It was on J Krishnamurti online.org. It seems appropriate to this thread.

The screen of belief

You believe in God, and another does not believe in God, so your beliefs separate you from each other. Belief throughout the world is organized as Hinduism, Buddhism, or Christianity, and so it divides man from man. We are confused, and we think that through belief we shall clear the confusion; that is, belief is superimposed on the confusion, and we hope that confusion will thereby be cleared away. But belief is merely an escape from the fact of confusion; it does not help us to face and to understand the fact but to run away from the confusion in which we are. To understand the confusion, belief is not necessary, and belief only acts as a screen between ourselves and our problems. So, religion, which is organized belief, becomes a means of escape from what is, from the fact of confusion. The man who believes in God, the man who believes in the hereafter, or who has any other form of belief, is escaping from the fact of what he is. Do you not know those who believe in God, who do puja, who repeat certain chants and words, and who in their daily life are dominating, cruel, ambitious, cheating, dishonest? Shall they find God? Are they really seeking God? Is God to be found through repetition of words, through belief? But such people believe in God, they worship God, they go to the temple every day, they do everything to avoid the fact of what they are and such people you consider respectable because they are yourself.
J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 23 May 2018 #16
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1186 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I just happened on this quote today. It was on J Krishnamurti online.org. It seems appropriate to this thread.

Hi Jack

It's indeed appropriate to this thread about organized religion, but there is also the great amount of believes which are not organized, to me those are as dangerous as the organized and much more subtle embedded.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 23 May 2018.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 23 May 2018 #17
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1281 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
there is also the great amount of beliefs which are not organized, to me those are as dangerous as the organized and much more subtly embedded.

Perhaps the most insidious among these "embedded" beliefs in us is that there exists a 'psychological time'...a time other than the immediate present. When we admit this 'belief' in our thinking in order to 'relish' the pleasure of some event that we are 'looking forward to', it poses no problem, we embrace it. But the other side of this 'coin' is, when we are faced with a 'future' event that we imagine will be painful, humiliating,etc., we run to escape it. And in that running or avoidance there is conflict and pain. This concept/belief of 'psychological time' dictates who or what 'I' will associate with and who or what 'I' will avoid in order to protect myself from psychological pain. Seeing how this 'belief' works in us is important as I see it.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 23 May 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 23 May 2018 #18
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5222 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
but there is also the great amount of believes which are not organized, to me those are as dangerous as the organized and much more subtle embedded.

Yes, I think you are probably right about that. After reading your post a few people I know came to mind who are shall we say "independent" believers and perhaps more susceptible to mental manipulation by those who would exploit their inherent gullibility.

I know a person who believes that the condensation trail, the ice particles, that are formed when jet aircraft fly at high altitude is actually a poison being spread some unnamed nefarious forces.

More recently he was trying to convince me that Fascism was actually an "invention" of the left or liberal forces. He said a guy had written a book about so to my acquaintance that was proof enough.

And then there are the fundamentalist Christians who overwhelmingly voted Trump into office. And, of course, Trump represents the biggest threat to world peace, order and to life itself, in my opinion.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 23 May 2018 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5222 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Perhaps the most insidious among these "embedded" beliefs in us is that there exists a 'psychological time'

By "psychological time" do you mean, in part, the movement of thought that sees what is now as being something different tomorrow? I am this today but I will be something else tomorrow. The grand illusion that we are constantly progressing or changing.

I agree that psychological time is a problem, or the problem. It is what invents a center around which everything turns. An independent entity with it's own thought, beliefs and existence separate from the rest of the world. This is the illusion we live in.

Dan McDermott wrote:
But the other side of this 'coin' is, when we are faced with a 'future' event that we imagine will be painful, humiliating,etc., we run to escape it. And in that running or avoidance there is conflict and pain.

Yes, the conflict between what is and what should or will be. But as you pointed out we are afraid of what will be or what is so instead of trying to understand we find it much easier to escape. But, of course, the escape is only temporary at best. So the pain-escape cycle becomes an intricate part of who we are and the misery we feel. Our own conflict is the conflict of the world and it appears that we are bringing ourselves and the world to the brink of oblivion.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 23 May 2018 #20
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1281 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
By "psychological time" do you mean, in part, the movement of thought that sees what is now as being something different tomorrow? I am this today but I will be something else tomorrow. The grand illusion that we are constantly progressing or changing.

I think that's right. And that 'illusion' creates the thought that there is no sense of urgency, the 'seeing' can always be postponed until 'tomorrow'...

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 24 May 2018 #21
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1186 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And then there are the fundamentalist Christians who overwhelmingly voted Trump into office.

The belief that another will take care of our problem is not only
imputable to the fundamental Christians. The belief that it is fake news because someone says so is random.

The list of subtle believes seems exhausting.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying all 21 posts
Page 1 of 1
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)