Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Choiceless self-awareness


Displaying posts 121 - 150 of 233 in total
Sat, 20 Jan 2018 #121
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Rich Nolet wrote:
Is harassment the mark of a healthy mind , of sanity ?

With all due respect Rich, my pointing out what is actually going on here, though it might not make people feel good, falls far short of unhealthy harassment. If one comes to Kinfonet, expecting a pleasurable experience conversing/sharing with other like minded information exchangers, then stay on track with those interactions. I did not comment to you recently and if I do, you are welcome to ignore what I post.

The persons who recommended your post, are welcome to ignore me also. ;)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jan 2018 #122
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

So if I may ask you Richard, what is it that is going on here , to be clear about what you want to share ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 20 Jan 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jan 2018 #123
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:

Richard, will eventually derail or deflect nearly every thread he posts on.

Richard Head:
Implied in this claim is that discussions/threads are actually on rail to somewhere. And that a single individual simply pointing to the fact can derail/deflect a circular knowledge/information exchange in progress. Absurd.

richard head wrote:
If one comes to Kinfonet, expecting a pleasurable experience conversing/sharing with other like minded information exchangers, then stay on track with those interactions.

You're being contradictory here Randall. When I wrote about derailing discussion, which is just another way of saying staying on track, you belittled that. Now you are saying the same thing but now it's OK to do.

Another thing Randall, who appointed you moderator to decide how we should post and how we shouldn't? You, apparently, think that we all have to discuss K in your approved way or it is your duty to stop the discussion and point out our errors. This has been your pattern for years. And this is why I warned Sean that if he or anyone else interacts with you it will quickly derail any discussion on the thread you are on. You have given us a perfect example above.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jan 2018 #124
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
So, bye for now. Perhaps some of us can rebuild again sometime.

I hope you reconsider your decision to leave this thread. I think there is more to be explored here.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jan 2018 #125
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
After all, why bother to follow every thought? What a pain. And who can really do it? Sure, give it a half hearted go. But to really watch every thought, in solitary quiet sitting, as well as throughout the day in various activities?

The only way it will really happen is if the urgency is crystal clear. If I don't even notice when I'm mean to my spouse or friend or co-worker, how will it stop?

This seems to sum up a central problem we all have. We are aware of the terrible mess the world is in and we on this forum are also aware of the role of thought in this terrible mess. However, the urgency to be attentive to every movement of thought eludes us.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jan 2018 #126
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
So why the violent reaction? Well one reason might be, the obvious one, is that the image that you have of yourself is being violently disrupted or challenged by another's words and you want to put an immediate stop to that disharmonious feeling those words have produced.

Yes, this seems to be true. Is there an element of protection in many different forms of violence? Protecting yourself from an enemy for physical survival in a war, protection of an image we have of ourselves when it comes under threat verbally or in written form here in the forum or protection from perceived slight or ridicule in a street brawl? Krishnamurti spoke of the link between fear and violence. Is fear of a real or imagined threat a key element in all violence?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jan 2018 #127
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
You're being contradictory here Randall.

No contradiction in substance or essence.

Some of my ex's used to make false claims about the past in order to bait me into an argument. This is a common ploy Jack. It's a pattern you have used for years.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jan 2018 #128
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Rich Nolet wrote:
be clear about what you want to share

I do what I do, in the moment Rich. I do not sum up the past (what was said and why it was said) to be consumed in a convenient manner.

If you choose to reject what is posted and judge it to be harassment, carry on. I have no problems with the things I post being rejected and ridiculed.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jan 2018 #129
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

It is not about rejecting, judging choosing or ridiculed what you post. However, what I see is that you don't differenciate knowledge/information from perception. I will pass.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sun, 21 Jan 2018.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #130
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
I do what I do, in the moment Rich.

It sounds more like you're on automatic pilot ;) repeatedly making the same point over and over. Which you are free to do, of course.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #131
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
No contradiction in substance or essence.

Some of my ex's used to make false claims about the past in order to bait me into an argument. This is a common ploy Jack. It's a pattern you have used for years.

Not a ploy at all simply quoting you are two different occasions showing your inconsistency and hypocrisy.

Somehow I'm not surprised to read that you have a bunch of "exs". Well, to your credit at least you married people who eventually developed good taste.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #132
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
repeatedly making the same point over and over.

Well Tom, as long as people/the human mind continues to, as Mr. Krishnamurti points out in todays quote, escape through the drug of explanation/knowledge over and over, I will continue to point it out, over and over.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #133
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
at least you married people

Never been married never had children.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #134
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Well Tom, as long as people/the human mind continues to, as Mr. Krishnamurti points out in todays quote, escape through the drug of explanation/knowledge over and over, I will continue to point it out, over and over.

And that's because only you know what K was saying and the rest of us are too stupid to figure it out without your pointing it out to us? How so very kind and helpful of you. Where do you find time during your busy days to do this?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #135
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Never been married never had children.

Really? The expression,"Ex's, usually refers to ex-wives or "partners" that one was married to. So what are you referring to by using "ex's"? Ex lives perhaps, ex-jobs? Or is it a secret?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #136
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Well Tom, as long as people/the human mind continues to, as Mr. Krishnamurti points out in todays quote, escape through the drug of explanation/knowledge over and over, I will continue to point it out, over and over.

Is thinking that you are right and see K's teachings clearly while others do not, something of a common occurence on this forum?

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Sun, 21 Jan 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #137
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
My natural reaction is to retaliate or defend. If it's not in person then all you can do is write something that you hope will "hurt" or anger the other person. If it happens in person, with the person standing there in your face, then the reaction is often one where you plant your fist in the middle of the guys face just as hard as you can. This action also gives one an immediate and wonderfully satisfying relief and an outlet to the adrenaline that is screaming through your veins which is desperately seeking a release.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #138
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Well Tom, as long as people/the human mind continues to, as Mr. Krishnamurti points out in todays quote, escape through the drug of explanation/knowledge over and over, I will continue to point it out, over and over.

But no real engagement other than that one point, because what goes on here has zero value according to your view. No value other than entertainment, that is, because no one has any insight into the teaching to share. No one other than you. You should just copy and paste....would save time typing. Or just write, "blah, blah, blah," a somewhat crude way of expressing your view.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #139
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Friendly place...this.

It is what it is for you !

Qotd:21 jan 2018

The 'I' is non-existent without memory, its tendencies, gifts and so on, i.e. non-existent without continuity, the racial, the traditional, the past in conjunction with the now, the past flowing through the present to the future which is hope.

Isn't the problem that one don't understand that "what is" can't be changed by the "what was" ??

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #140
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Isn't the problem that one don't understand that "what is" can't be changed by the "what was" ??

Isn't the problem that "what is" is a bunch of people fighting and no urgency to change?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #141
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Idiot, in your above post you have taken something I wrote out of context to try to do exactly what I was talking about in the quote.

The context you took this quote from was a discussion on violence. We all feel violence at one time or another. I was describing different scenarios we all face from time to time and how many of us react in a violent way whether we are honest enough to admit it or not.

You demonstrated perfectly for us the part where I wrote: My natural reaction is to retaliate or defend. If it's not in person then all you can do is write something that you hope will "hurt" or anger the other person You see we all strike out at others.

Are you making an ideal out of " non violence" and just see violence in others? If you don't see violence in yourself then you are not seeing violence at all. You are just seeing your ideal of violence.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #142
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
no urgency to change?

Do you see how you are making an icon out of the word "urgency". Something you have read that K said. You seem to keep using that word, "urgency" over and over again. What exactly does "urgency of change" mean to you? What do you think K was trying to express with these words?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 21 Jan 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #143
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Friendly place...this.

It's easy to see the faults of others but what do you see about yourself? Are you not part of this "place"? Do you not post here and react to what others have posted? Are you apart from the rancor of this forum?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #144
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Wim Opdam wrote:

Isn't the problem that one don't understand that "what is" can't be changed by the "what was" ??

Isn't the problem that "what is" is a bunch of people fighting and no urgency to change?

"Fighting", arguing, discussing, questioning, escaping, easy banter, but no seeing the necessity of change. As long as pleasure is available I'm afraid there's no feeling of urgency. I've seen newsreel footage from WWII, and while bombs were destroying innocent civilian lives by the thousands, in the dance halls, civilians were busy jitter bugging away to the jazz music of the popular big bands like Benny Goodman.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #145
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:

My natural reaction is to retaliate or defend. If it's not in person then all you can do is write something that you hope will "hurt" or anger the other person. If it happens in person, with the person standing there in your face, then the reaction is often one where you plant your fist in the middle of the guys face just as hard as you can. This action also gives one an immediate and wonderfully satisfying relief and an outlet to the adrenaline that is screaming through your veins which is desperately seeking a release.

[The context for the above is post #123]

My reaction to this is amazement and concern. How can a mind filled with visceral animosity, with self-justification, with sadistic vengeance, believe that it can touch the sacred, which is fragile, sensitive, innocent? That is amazing.

My concern is that you get some anger management, or whatever is necessary, so that you don’t continue hurting yourself and those around you.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 3 readers
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #146
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
My concern is that you get some anger management, or whatever is necessary, so that you don’t continue hurting yourself and those around you.

No, you're not concerned about me. And you seem to be the one who is striking out in anger. You don't know me but that doesn't seem to stop you from psycho analyzing someone you have never met. Instead you seem to just continue to make my point that in your frustration you are trying to hurt me with names and accusations. Maybe you should take your own advice and seek help for your own anger, idiot?

Instead of setting yourself apart from others you probably need to start being honest with yourself and the way you feel. That, really, is the only thing any of us can do. Understand ourselves.

When you were reading what I have written above to Sean about violence so you could find something to attack me with you seemed to have skipped over what K once said and which was the subject of the Daily Quote the other day. So here it is again for you to read.

It is futile to waste time over what another is thinking, or what you imagine he is thinking - because you can never know. The one to be scrutinised is yourself. 1/19/2018

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 21 Jan 2018.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #147
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

I am concerned and I'm not angry.

You are right that I'm not perfect. I continue to watch myself in relationship.

I am definitely learning, in interacting with this forum, that I sometimes assert views in a way that is too didactic, that doesn't encourage joint inquiry. I'll never be K and don't want to imitate him.

It is interesting how K would sometimes "inquire together" and "question anew" but tended to come around to the same old teachings, dressed in slightly different clothes. Was he really "inquiring together" from not knowing, or was it a sly way of coming back around at what he felt was important to teach? Maybe both?

In any case, I have some responsibility for conflict here. May we see it and end it.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #148
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5765 posts in this forum Offline

Idiot, here is the point I am trying to make and what the example you quoted twice was part of: We all get angry. It may be something we don't like to admit especially in public but it's a fact.

I hope we can, you and me and everyone else, can discuss anger together. I may be wrong but to do that we have to first see and understand our own anger. Just as a matter of fact, I have never hit someone in the "middle of the face as hard as I can" in my whole life. But I have certainly felt like it at times. Don't get me started on Trump and his smirking faced sons.

Can we drop the rancor, the anger and discuss our own anger and what we see, what we understand about it? And then discuss it honestly on this forum? I think it might be productive.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #149
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 690 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Can we drop the rancor, the anger and discuss our own anger and what we see, what we understand about it? And then discuss it honestly on this forum? I think it might be productive.

That sounds like the right approach to me. Maybe we should refer to person X or person Y so that we don't fall into personal attacks?

Is anger related to fear? It seems to me that anger is an activated fear. With fear, we turn and run. With anger, we face and fire back. In both cases, there is intensity of feeling.

K says, be aware of the emotion, see that you are the emotion - that you are not separate from it, stay with it, and it transforms. But with personal experiment, I have found that fear and anger are deep in the gut when they happen. It's not just something mental I can watch, play with, unify with, and poof! it goes away. As aware as I am during it, it lingers, and doesn't instantly transform. It is a powerful physical feeling, a cascade of chemicals in the body, and not just mental. Your thoughts?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jan 2018 #150
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But with personal experiment, I have found that fear and anger are deep in the gut when they happen. It's not just something mental I can watch, play with, unify with, and poof! it goes away.

Indeed...it's much more than just mental. Fear can be so intense that it feels in your 'gut' as if you're facing a man eating tiger in the jungle and your whole being wants to run away. Now do you 'stay with it' and face the tiger when your whole being is telling you, "run like hell!"?

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 121 - 150 of 233 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)