Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Being what one is


Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 65 in total
Sat, 14 Oct 2017 #1
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

How can one be what one is, while spending all day in the authority of ones own thinking, pretending to be what one believes one should be (becoming)? Does one even understand what one is?

No criticism of any one individual intended.

This post was last updated by richard head Sun, 15 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 15 Oct 2017 #2
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Pretending to be what one should be - IS what one is.

Believing that "I" should be other than what I am or that "you" should be other than what you are - IS the authority of one's thinking.

Believing that there is another me, a true me, a better me, which is not what I am now - IS the authority of one's thinking.

Therefore these beliefs - all one's beliefs - are also what one is, as is avoiding to face these simple facts ... as is avoiding to face the fear which lies beneath.

No?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sun, 15 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Mon, 16 Oct 2017 #3
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 80 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Pretending to be what one should be - IS what one is.

Believing that "I" should be other than what I am or that "you" should be other than what you are - IS the authority of one's thinking.

Believing that there is another me, a true me, a better me, which is not what I am now - IS the authority of one's thinking.

Yes

Huguette . wrote:
Therefore these beliefs - all one's beliefs - are also what one is, as is avoiding to face these simple facts ... as is avoiding to face the fear which lies beneath.

No?

As I see, Richard's question was more like, the above (i.e. the insight that observer is the observed) being an ongoing description of our inner state, how is it that it ends up with a conclusion and a vague sense of self righteousness. To put it differently, insight being integral to action, how is it possible that we can split off from it?

contraria sunt complementa

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 16 Oct 2017 #4
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Pretending to be what one should be - IS what one is.

Yes, becoming is, what is.

But I was trying to come from a different angle. For instance, my cat isn't becoming something. She is being what she is. So I can see that a mammal can exist without constant illusion. So why can't we? It must be possible. Even K thought so. ;)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 16 Oct 2017 #5
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
how is it possible that we can split off from it?

Because we are quite lazy my friend. We want some fad psychological "diet" (There are many to choose from) to lose our excess baggage yet continue a life of pursuit/achievement/escape.

K pointed out that the intensity of our passion is not an "easy" endeavor. Most people prefer to sit in a comfortable chair and exchange opinions in a safe (psychologically) environment. Yet seem quite perplexed that no change of habit occurs. Most will deny stagnation and can become indignant when the obvious is pointed out.

This is not a criticism, btw.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 16 Oct 2017 #6
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 80 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
K pointed out that the intensity of our passion is not an "easy" endeavor. Most people prefer to sit in a comfortable chair and exchange opinions in a safe (psychologically) environment. Yet seem quite perplexed that no change of habit occurs. Most will deny stagnation and can become indignant when the obvious is pointed out.

As I see, passion is not a matter of endeavor, it is the natural response as awareness to every movement the body-mind complex makes.

contraria sunt complementa

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 16 Oct 2017 #7
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote at #3:
As I see, Richard's question was more like, the above (i.e. the insight that observer is the observed) being an ongoing description of our inner state, how is it that it ends up with a conclusion and a vague sense of self righteousness. To put it differently, insight being integral to action, how is it possible that we can split off from it?

In the moment of inattention where “I split off” from awareness into self-righteousness, isn’t the mind in a state of ignorance? There is nothing “I” - self - can willfully or deliberately do to end ignorance, is there? It is not aware of being ignorant. It thinks it "knows" something. Ignorance cannot end ignorance.

I - the mind - can only understand this once the fog of inattention or ignorance has lifted. Doesn’t the mind move from attention to inattention, back and forth? It is only in attention that it understands its own fragmentation, isn’t it?

Is there an answer to the “why” which has the ability to end or prevent this back and forth movement such that, if "I act” according to the “answer”, I will be able to permanently end ignorance? Isn’t the very search for the “why” a movement away from awareness? As I see it, I can’t rightly answer the origin of the “why”, I (the mind) can only observe the fact. Even if I say fear is the root of it, it doesn't end it. And in the moment of attention, observation of the fact ends the "splitting off", doesn't it?

In facing its discontent, the mind understands its own limitations. It cannot prevent itself from being inattentive. This is not an idea, is it? Doesn’t the mind see that it is so?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 16 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 16 Oct 2017 #8
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote at #4:
But I was trying to come from a different angle. For instance, my cat isn't becoming something. She is being what she is. So I can see that a mammal can exist without constant illusion. So why can't we? It must be possible. Even K thought so. ;)

But isn’t it a hop, a skip and a jump from “it must be possible” to “it should be”? If we say “it MUST be possible”, doesn’t that conclusion influence the direction of our looking into it? And if we say “it is NOT possible”, then we instantly stop looking into it, don’t we?

But if we approach it without any predisposition or desire, if we ask “IS it possible”, then the enquiry is not tainted by thought, is it?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Mon, 16 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 17 Oct 2017 #9
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But if we approach it without any predisposition or desire, if we ask “IS it possible”, then the enquiry is not tainted by thought, is it?

We approach with no desire to achieve or posses. We simply want to find the reality behind the mythology. We cannot frame a term or concept (IS it possible) to help lead us.

This is off the beaten path of knowledge.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 17 Oct 2017 #10
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
passion is not a matter of endeavor

Maybe that is not a word that conveys the reality I was getting at. One either has the passion to find out, or one doesn't. To consistently and persistently apply this passion amidst life's ups and downs, is the endeavor aspect.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 17 Oct 2017 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
To consistently and persistently apply this passion amidst life's ups and downs, is the endeavor aspect.

Why be consistent? That sounds like an ideal. Or is it simply interest in finding out? If we're interested there's no thought of being consistent or persistent.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 17 Oct 2017 #12
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If we're interested there's no thought of being consistent or persistent.

No one said anything about thought.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 17 Oct 2017 #13
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
That sounds like an ideal.

No one said anything about thought. ;)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 17 Oct 2017 #14
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why be consistent?

We are consistent/persistent in our pursuit of pleasure. Why not be, in attending our passion to find out?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 17 Oct 2017 #15
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

re 9 and 10:

Richard,

Doesn’t the passion you mention bring us to the realization that “I really don’t know, I really don’t understand human behaviour, the human predicament, what shapes relationship and action”? It can’t be denied, it is there: I don’t understand, I don’t know what to do to live altogether differently, I am stuck repeating the same patterns over and over.

Is this state of "not-knowing" different than wondering ”IS it possible for this life of confusion, compulsion, fear, unrequited desire, suffering, conflict to end?” (I don’t mean suicide.)

Saying “I don’t know” in the moment that I am face-to-face with the fact, is not an idea or a pretense, is it? Asking “IS there an altogether different way of living?” because I see that I really don’t know, is asked without the expectation of an answer. It is facing the fact, without time or knowledge.

If the passion is THERE, it cannot be put on hold, can it? It’s not up to “me” to apply it. I can’t say, “Today I’ll give passion a rest”. IT moves, IT acts on its own if I don’t repress it or try to escape it, doesn’t it?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 18 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 18 Oct 2017 #16
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
IT acts on its own if I don’t repress it or try to escape it, doesn’t it?

I say this in all kindness and without criticism or judgement but....in one breath we say "I don't know" then we go on to explain how much we know. This sentence I highlighted is your knowledge being expressed. We have all been posting on these forums for a long time. Some of us post many paragraphs of knowledge expressing and explaining and back and forth and so on and so forth. We cannot then express the sentiment that "I don't know" and expect to be taken seriously. It is another formula of the well worn path of knowledge.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 18 Oct 2017 #17
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Saying “I don’t know” in the moment that I am face-to-face with the fact, is not an idea or a pretense, is it?

For most minds it is pretense. It is like saying "abra-cadabra...salami-salami-bologna" and expecting some magic to occur. K called this type of behavior superstition.

When face to face with the fact one needn't say anything.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 18 Oct 2017 #18
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote at #10:
One either has the passion to find out, or one doesn't.

richard head wrote at #14:
.... our passion to find out?

What is this passion, where does it comes from, how do you know it is there?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 18 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 18 Oct 2017 #19
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

re 16:

Richard,

When you see something you have never seen before (maybe a UFO), or something that is in an incongruous place (maybe a baby alone deep in the forest), doesn’t a question arise: “What is that? What is this doing here?” Don't these questions arise spontaneously in awareness without being formed into words? Don't I (the mind) "know" them just as I "know" passion?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 18 Oct 2017 #20
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote at #17:
For most minds....

Why do I concern myself with most minds? Is it that I want them to conform to my ideal?

To learn about the mind, I must look inward, no?

richard head wrote at #17:
When face to face with the fact one needn't say anything

I agree that one needn’t necessarily anything. Or one might need to say something. Am “I” the one to decide?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 21 Oct 2017 #21
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1163 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
But I was trying to come from a different angle. For instance, my cat isn't becoming something. She is being what she is. So I can see that a mammal can exist without constant illusion.

How do you know what your cat dreams of? Or what illusions it may be caught in?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 21 Oct 2017 #22
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
How do you know what your cat dreams of? Or what illusions it may be caught in?

Simple observation. Relationship. The becoming psychological entity is quite obvious.

Whether she has visions of sugar plum fairies dancing in her head while asleep, is difficult to determine I grant you. ;)

This post was last updated by richard head Sat, 21 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 21 Oct 2017 #23
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I agree that one needn’t necessarily anything. Or one might need to say something. Am “I” the one to decide?

The situation will unfold all necessity.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 21 Oct 2017 #24
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Why do I concern myself with most minds?

Commonalities should be attended.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 21 Oct 2017 #25
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
doesn’t a question arise:

Thought is helpful and useful in certain aspects of human endeavor.

Thought apparently, must find it's own level of incompetence.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 21 Oct 2017 #26
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
how do you know it is there?

How do you know it isn't? Simple observation makes many things in life clear. My actions my activities will tell me many things about myself. My mind will frequently deceive me.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 21 Oct 2017 #27
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Don't these questions arise spontaneously in awareness without being formed into words?

This is a very tricky point. Unless one has "been there-done that", it is difficult to comprehend an understanding not based on information/knowledge/words/mental image.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 21 Oct 2017 #28
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Why do I concern myself with most minds?

richard head wrote at #24:
Commonalities should be attended.

Why "should" they be attended?

richard head wrote at #17:
For most minds it is pretense. It is like saying "abra-cadabra...salami-salami-bologna" and expecting some magic to occur. K called this type of behavior superstition.

And IS it attending to commonality to say that "for most mind it is pretense" and the rest of it? Is this commonality because you see that it is so for you as well, because it is something that you see in observing yourself? Or do you mean that it is common to most minds other than your own mind, but that your own mind is not like that?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 21 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 22 Oct 2017 #29
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1163 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Simple observation. Relationship. The becoming psychological entity is quite obvious.

The cat has desires and suffers. Is it so different? Maybe it just lacks imagination.

I read somewhere that dolphins have names for each other, and might even gossip about other dolphins when they are away.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 22 Oct 2017 #30
Thumb_77 Ken D United States 20 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
I read somewhere that dolphins have names for each other, and might even gossip about other dolphins when they are away.

¶ Sounds like your typical Kinfonet member.

This post was last updated by Ken D Sun, 22 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 65 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)