Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Krishnamurti & friendship


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Mon, 14 Aug 2017 #1
Thumb_9204480_n03 French Touch France 45 posts in this forum Offline

Did Krishnamurti had any friend?
If not, what does it mean about him or about friendship?

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Mon, 14 Aug 2017 #2
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

French Touch wrote:
what does it mean about him or about friendship?

What part of, a planet full of isolated self absorbed self interested top of the food chain biological entities, don't we understand? "friendship" is an illusory ideal based in speculative imagination.

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Mon, 14 Aug 2017 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4916 posts in this forum Offline

French Touch: Please consider what K said on this one occasion about "friendship". It seems very consistent with who K was and the way he saw, lived and discussed life.

What is friendship? Why do we seek friends, need friends, miss friends? I don't know how old you are but if you are older this may have a particular relevance to you, to your life and to the loneliness one often feels later in life after the loss of so many friends and other significant things in your life that eased you, all of us, through the gaps in our lives so filled with loneliness .

Whatever you feel or understand about this statement by K don't make "friendship" the seed for a long intellectual discussion loaded with opinions and reactions. There is great beauty and simplicity and truth in the statement below.

Friendship. 2nd Talk in Santa Monica, 1974

Questioner: What is real friendship if it does not involve trust or respect?

K: What is real friendship, if in that there is no trust or respect. If there is no trust or respect, what is the meaning of real friendship? I don't know. (Laughter) If you haven't got respect and affection how can you have friendship? I don't quite understand the meaning of this question.

Look sir, first of all why do you want a friend? Why do you want a friend? Is it because you are lonely? Is it because you want to depend on him, rely on him? To have a companionship with him? Is it out of your loneliness, insufficiency, you depend on another to fulfil or to fill that emptiness, and therefore you are using another, exploiting another, to cover your own insufficiency, your own utter emptiness, and so call that person a friend? Is he a friend in that way? When you are using somebody for yourself, for your pleasure, for your whatever it is? Answer sir, go into it, don't accept what I am saying. Because most of us are so lonely, the older we get the more lonely we discover our emptiness. While you are young these things don't occur to you, you have no time, you are enjoying the beauty of the sea, the clouds, the rich earth, or demonstrating against some idiotic politician and so on, you have no time. But as you grow, mature, if you are ever mature at all, then you begin to discover for yourself what it means to be empty, to be lonely, to have no friend at all actually because all your life you have lead a superficial life, depended on others, exploited others, invested your thought, your feelings in another, depended on another and when they go away, die or disappear you feel so lonely, empty, and out of that emptiness there is self-pity, and then you again begin the good game of seeking somebody to fulfil that loneliness. This is what is happening all the time, the days of our life. Now can you see this and learn from it? Learn what it means to be lonely and never escape from it, look at it, live with it, see what is implied, so that psychologically, inwardly you depend on nobody. Then only you will know what it means to love. Yes sir?

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Tue, 15 Aug 2017 #4
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 226 posts in this forum Offline

French Touch wrote:
Did Krishnamurti have any friends?

When he was younger, K's best friend was his brother Nitya. They were inseparable. K insisted he be trained right along with him. When Nitya died it was the strongest, most profound loss in K's life. And it really set up his disillusionment with the Masters and the Theosophical Society.

Later in life, K had an entourage, followers who felt so strongly about his message that they dedicated their lives to him, his teachings, his organizations, his schools. He was on somewhat friendly terms with them. For example, Michael Krohnen, in his book Kitchen Chronicles, said that he would often lunch with K and tell him about current events, since evidently K didn't read the newspaper or watch the news.

Probably closest to him were various women, at different stages in his life. Mary Zimbalist, his lover Rosalind Rajagopol, and his later biographer Pupul Jayakar were perhaps some of his closest friends at different points.

K encouraged friendly interaction. He suggested that dialogue was best when entered into with a friendly rather than confrontational attitude: let's go into these questions together, as friends. That kind of thing. So in one way, he was friends with everyone.

On the other hand, he could be harsh and critical, certainly when he was younger, but I think throughout his life. He had friendly AND stormy relationships with Aldous Huxley, David Bohm and others.

Of course, he claimed to be free of conflict, but tell that to D. Rajagopol, with whom he had law suits, and to others with whom he had falling outs.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 15 Aug 2017.

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Tue, 15 Aug 2017 #5
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
He suggested that dialogue was best when entered into with a friendly rather than confrontational attitude: let's go into these questions together, as friends.

K's suggestions of discussing together as friends, was in response to folks coming to him in awe, as someone to be worshiped or followed, not as a blueprint to be emulated 30-40 years after he died.

K frequently confronted human imbecility during his talks.

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Tue, 15 Aug 2017 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
's suggestions of discussing together as friends, was in response to folks coming to him in awe, as someone to be worshiped or followed, not as a blueprint to be emulated 30-40 years after he died.

K frequently confronted human imbecility during his talks.

He discussed with Mrs Jayakar and other friends as two friends. I heard K live on a radio interview in NY with a clueless egotistical interviewer and K never confronted the man's 'imbecility'. He seemed almost overly kind and patient. You have no compassion for us 'imbeciles', R.?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 16 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #7
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
You have no compassion for us 'imbeciles', R.?

Compassion, like Love or sunshine, cannot be focused down to any one person place or thing. It either exists, or it doesn't.

However, the human minds capacity for imbecility in certain pursuits, lends itself easily to a compassionate response, where it (compassion) exists. If one is expecting a compassionate response to feel "good", one might be disappointed.

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #8
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
K never confronted the man's 'imbecility'.

I certainly cannot argue with logic/knowledge/information like that Tom. :)

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Huh? You can make of it what you wish, but I heard him with my own ears!

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 16 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
If one is expecting a compassionate response to feel "good", one might be disappointed.

I wasn't even expecting compassion. I was joking.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 16 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #11
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I heard him with my own ears!

Therefore, what? The points being referenced become invalid/negated?

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #12
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I was joking.

Me too.

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #13
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

I heard him with my own ears!
Therefore, what? The points being referenced become invalid/negated?

It's knowledge and information, yes. Is this somehow 'bad', in your view? I'm missing what you were getting at. K was patient and polite with an interviewer. Should we emulate him? No, I wasn't suggesting that at all. I don't even recall why I shared it. I was just sharing a little personal anecdote.

Let it Be

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #14
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I don't even recall why I shared it.

Please let me refresh. You shared it as a counter to the point that K "frequently" confronted the childish/imbecilic questions/responses he received during his talks. May we explore why the mind does this?

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Wed, 16 Aug 2017 #15
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Is this somehow 'bad', in your view?

Sorry Tom, but nowhere in my posts do I reference "good/bad". May we explore why the mind persists in seeing things as "good/bad"?

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Thu, 17 Aug 2017 #16
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

I don't even recall why I shared it.
Please let me refresh.

True...thanks for the refreshment. I honestly lost the thread. Why does the mind counter one point with an opposng point? To keep the discussion going, perhaps. To see where it will lead. Because we're interested in the person K? I shared my little anecdote because my impression of K was so at odds with what you stated about confrontations. I find it interesting that he can be so exceedingly polite in spite of some rare moments of confrontation. At least in radio and TV and videotaped interviews he's incredibly polite. Sometimes unbelievably so. But his upbringing among the English upper class may be part of the reason for this personality trait.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 17 Aug 2017.

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Thu, 17 Aug 2017 #17
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Is this somehow 'bad', in your view?
Sorry Tom, but nowhere in my posts do I reference "good/bad". May we explore why the mind persists in seeing things as "good/bad"?

Now that's a good question. This has been our conditioning since the beginning of civilization....maybe earlier. Anyone want to have a go at this? Time to start dinner here.

Let it Be

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Thu, 17 Aug 2017 #18
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
May we explore why the mind persists in seeing things as "good/bad"?

Coming back to your question R., I'd say it began with like and dislike.....with what's good or bad for 'me'. The slave master tells the slaves it's good to work hard and bad to be lazy. Perhaps back in the day when most of us existed by subsistence farming, it was good to work hard, because that means more food....and bad to be lazy because it led to less food(for the family, clan, tribe, whatever).

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 17 Aug 2017.

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Thu, 17 Aug 2017 #19
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Perhaps back in the day

Perhaps. But let us stick to here and now, to try and explore the phenomenon of the civilized expression of the human mind? You and I, we both have one, right? All we need is right before us, no?

So, sabre toothed tigers aside, maybe the phenomenon of us/them /like/dislike right/wrong might have something to do with the mechanisms of the mind, rather than the outer expressions?

If we observe our own minds, in action/relationship, we can see it all very clear, right?

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Thu, 17 Aug 2017 #20
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
If we observe our own minds, in action/relationship, we can see it all very clear, right?

We can see right vs. wrong...like vs dislike, sure. The reason/s why the mind does this might not be so clear. Memory is an obvious reason...the authority of my experiences...my pleasures and fears. I enjoyed some experience, therefore it must be good or 'right'. I felt hurt or frightened by some experience, therefore I say it's wrong.What do you say? Anyone? I like cheating on my wife (not speaking personally! ;)) therefore, I say polygamy is right. I dislike my wife sleeping with my neighbor, therefore I say polygamy is wrong.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 17 Aug 2017.

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Thu, 17 Aug 2017 #21
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The reason/s why the mind does this might not be so clear. Memory is an obvious reason...

If it is not so clear, maybe we should try to clear it up (before we go on to the next level/step)? Giving examples of the hundreds if not thousands of the phenomenon's expression in our daily lives, may not get us an understanding of the deep root of the situation, what do you say?

What do you suggest is the very basic/rudimentary mechanism of the mind responsible for incoming sensory data?

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Thu, 17 Aug 2017 #22
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Memory is an obvious reason...

What seems obvious is that Memory, is but one part of a larger/whole mechanism.

Can we come to a perception of the larger picture, simply speculating about the parts/smaller picture?

This post was last updated by richard head Fri, 18 Aug 2017.

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Fri, 18 Aug 2017 #23
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
What do you suggest is the very basic/rudimentary mechanism of the mind responsible for incoming sensory data?

Huh? This is too obscure. I'm not sure what you're asking. The mind is not responsible for what is sensed. It reacts to what is sensed.

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Fri, 18 Aug 2017 #24
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Memory is an obvious reason...
What seems obvious is that Memory, is but one part of a larger/whole mechanism.

It's not obvious to me what this mechanism you're talking about might be. Like and dislike is based upon memory. what else?

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Fri, 18 Aug 2017 #25
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The mind is not responsible for what is sensed. It reacts to what is sensed.

Ok, the mind 'reacts" to the outer environment. Not overly obscure, quite obvious in fact. So how will we dissect, for observation purposes, this reaction?

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Fri, 18 Aug 2017 #26
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
It's not obvious to me what this mechanism you're talking about might be.

So how can we come to something that is obvious on the same level at the same time?

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Fri, 18 Aug 2017 #27
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Like and dislike is based upon memory. what else?

If it is not clear/obvious to us/you, as we/you are saying, let us not keep using the authority of our thinking to make statements such as this, over and over.....with all due respect to the authority of thought/thinking/knowledge, that gets offended when it's authority is confronted/challenged.

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Fri, 18 Aug 2017 #28
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Like and dislike is based upon memory. what else?
If it is not clear/obvious to us/you, as we/you are saying, let us not keep using the authority of our thinking to make statements such as this, over and over.....with all due respect to the authority of thought/thinking/knowledge, that gets offended when it's authority is confronted/challenged.

And what are you using in this discussion but the authority of your thought/thinking/knowledge/experience, pray tell? Do we both see the limits/limitation of this experience/knowledge? If we don't then we'll continue to rely upon it in our daily living....dividing 'me' from 'you', good from bad, right from wrong, etc.
And there's great danger in those divisions as most of us are aware. we'll continue to achieve all the disasterous results we know of all too well.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 18 Aug 2017.

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Fri, 18 Aug 2017 #29
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
And what are you using in this discussion but the authority of your thought/thinking/knowledge/experience, pray tell?

Sorry Tom, this is not a serious response. All exploration must end at that point.

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Fri, 18 Aug 2017 #30
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 248 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Do we both see the limits/limitation of this experience/knowledge?

Do we? One of us appears to continue repeating this limited experience/knowledge, while the other continues to challenge/confront. You do the math.

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