Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Was Krishnamurti senile at the end of his life?


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Tue, 18 Jul 2017 #1
Thumb_9204480_n03 French Touch France 45 posts in this forum Offline

With this quote you have to wonder.

“You won’t find another body like
this, or that supreme intelligence
operating in a body for many hundred
years. You won’t see it again. When he
goes, it goes. There is no
consciousness left behind of that
consciousness, of that state. They’ll
all pretend or try to imagine they can
get into touch with that. Perhaps they
will somewhat if they live the
teachings. But nobody has done it.
Nobody. And so that’s that.” (M.
Lutyens, The Open Door, p. 149)

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Tue, 18 Jul 2017 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

No, I don't believe K was senile. This quote is often talked about.

To me, the main thing K is saying is that he leaves no spiritual successor. He didn't feel that anyone had fully seen into what he taught and was qualified to carry on his teaching. The recordings of his teachings would have to stand alone.

In a way this is the Theosophical idea that he was raised in: the planet gets a World Teacher every 500 years or so. He was it and there won't be another for some time. Beware any imposters that may follow.

Now my personal view is that K was unique only in that each of us is unique. The things he taught are available to pretty much everyone. Other people can, have, and will discover deep insight. Compared to a lot of religions, K teaching was remarkably free of baggage but he did bring some baggage to it. Others will bring their different baggage and slants.

It is up to each person to investigate deeply and transform. The earth certainly needs it.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 18 Jul 2017.

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Wed, 19 Jul 2017 #3
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Hello French Touch. I remember reading the quote when I read The Open Door many years ago. Reading it again, it doesn't suggest to me that K was in any way senile. What in particular suggests senility to you in the quote, may I ask?

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Thu, 20 Jul 2017 #4
Thumb_9204480_n03 French Touch France 45 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? I really like your comment.
Sean Hen. About every word. Occasionally (I should say very rarely) K arrogance made things more complicated than they are, contradictory with everything he has demonstrated so beautifully.

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Sun, 23 Jul 2017 #5
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Hello French Touch and all. The video below (just under 10 minutes) was filmed about six weeks before Krishnamurti died. Based on the evidence from this clip, Krishnamurti did not seem at all senile when it was filmed. You can watch the video here.

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Sun, 23 Jul 2017 #6
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It is up to each person to investigate deeply and transform. The earth certainly needs it.

Hello idiot? and all. I don't imagine anyone would argue with the sentence you wrote above idiot?. I think it's interesting that in the quote from K that started this thread he says, "But nobody has done it." Perhaps there was a certain amount of frustration on K's part that after so many years dedicated to pointing the way, nobody, in his view, had changed in the way that he talked about. He also said in the same quote, "They'll all pretend or try to imagine they can get in touch with that. Perhaps they will somewhat if they live the teachings." I don't see anything outrageous about that at all. It seems accurate to me and leaves the door open, as it were, for anyone with sufficient interest to investigate deeply and transform.

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Mon, 24 Jul 2017 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
He also said in the same quote, "They'll all pretend or try to imagine they can get in touch with that. Perhaps they will somewhat if they live the teachings." I don't see anything outrageous about that at all. It seems accurate to me and leaves the door open, as it were, for anyone with sufficient interest to investigate deeply and transform.

In addition, with this action he has every claim of his inheritance disclaimed, marvelous !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 25 Jul 2017 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

French Touch. It's interesting that when someone doesn't understand something they have heard or read they want to blame the problem on the person making the statement. You read something that most of us have read, some many times, and see clearly what K was saying but you think what he was pointing out was somehow not rational. Perhaps you should be questioning the workings of your own mind?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 25 Jul 2017.

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Tue, 25 Jul 2017 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

French Touch asked a question. He did not assign blame. He does not deserve to be personally attacked. He questioned something for himself.

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Tue, 25 Jul 2017 #10
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
French Touch asked a question. He did not assign blame. He does not deserve to be personally attacked. He questioned something for himself.

Well OK. I can see that what you have written above has some validity. I guess what I was asking that person, French Touch, is why would you ask whether K was senile after reading that particular statement of his?

Why do some see that statement clearly for what K was pointing out. To me he was making it clear there was no successor, no one got it. That once K was gone that was it. All that would be left behind were the teachings but no interpreter, no teacher to carry on K's work.

If you see K's statement, as a response (at least partially), to some members of the K Foundations feeling, rightly or wrongly, that David Bohm was lining himself up to be something of a successor to K, if may make more sense.

K's and Bohm's relationship suffered a severe rift in the last year to two of K's life. K realized that Dr Bohm had not understood some or all of the teachings. At least this is what David Peat, the author of INFINITE POTENTIAL The Life and Times of David Bohm, wrote in his biography of Bohm. Information that he may have received fro Bohm's wife Saral or others. And who knows how accurate that information may have been. The rift was real.

And French Touch I apologize if I offended you. That was not my intention.

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Wed, 23 Aug 2017 #11
Thumb_9204480_n03 French Touch France 45 posts in this forum Offline

No problem. I still question why he felt necessary to be so over dramatic.

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Wed, 23 Aug 2017 #12
Thumb_virg2 BTeulada II Portugal 4 posts in this forum Offline

Not senile: if anything sharp as a tack, as usual.
This excerpt - from something I believe the KFA has never published -, was a reply to a specific question about "succession" (If I remember correctly).

Not only do I not see anything indicating senility in this reply/statement, as I imagine (but only imagine) that he wanted to be extremely clear that there was to be no Krishnamurti-ism after he died and no head of any hyerarchical spiritual structure built in his name.

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Wed, 23 Aug 2017 #13
Thumb_virg2 BTeulada II Portugal 4 posts in this forum Offline

French Touch wrote:
No problem. I still question why he felt necessary to be so over dramatic.

Not dramatic I think, but categoric.

Speculation alert : Maybe he sensed he needed to really pull the plug on the "succession" nonsense, and this was it.

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Wed, 23 Aug 2017 #14
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 1214 posts in this forum Online

BTeulada II wrote:
Maybe he sensed he needed to really pull the plug on the "succession" nonsense, and this was it.

Yes it is "nonsense", thank you. And hopefully the "plug" will stay pulled.

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Wed, 23 Aug 2017 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

BTeulada II wrote:
Not senile: if anything sharp as a tack, as usual.

Yes of course K was alert and sharp. I can attest to that up to at least 1983 which I think is the last time I heard him speak.

In small groups, especially, K seemed to be aware of everyone that was in attendance and of their reactions or lack of attention.

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Wed, 23 Aug 2017 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

BTeulada II wrote:
Speculation alert : Maybe he sensed he needed to really pull the plug on the "succession" nonsense, and this was it.

I think this is right. In the last several years of his life K forcefully reiterated that there was no successor, no authority, no replacement for the "speaker". When the speaker died all of this would die with him. Only a record of the teachings would be left and they must remain undiluted, unedited and certainly not interpreted by anyone. No one was allocated any authority where the teachings were concerned. K repeated what I have paraphrased above many times. He was emphatic about this.

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Fri, 08 Sep 2017 #17
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
In small groups, especially, K seemed to be aware of everyone that was in attendance and of their reactions or lack of attention.

Hello Jack. That's very interesting that you have direct experience of this and it confirms what I've seen on video of Krishnamurti being sharp minded even towards the end of his long life.

Someone being aware of everyone and being attentive to their reactions or lack of attention is always very, very impressive. I did a one month educational course many years ago and I was one of 18 students. I would say that one of the tutors on the course had something of the same quality of alertness that you described Jack. She was very sensitive to her students' level of engagement and very quick onto the reactions of her students.

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Fri, 08 Sep 2017 #18
Thumb_77 Ken D United States 19 posts in this forum Offline

I heard Krishnamurti in 1985 (as well as 1978 and 1984). Was in the Oak Grove for his last talk in Ojai. Most impressive talk I ever heard in person. (The second being his talk on psychological pressure in 1978 at Nordhoff High School - Ann Francis sat behind me in the bleachers). Sharp as ever.

This post was last updated by Ken D Fri, 08 Sep 2017.

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Fri, 08 Sep 2017 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Ann Francis sat behind me in the bleachers). Sharp as ever.

I was there that day and I just happened to notice Anne Francis walk out. She appeared to be alone and she had that look about her, stars in the eyes, like she thought she had just heard Jesus speak and that she was now going to heaven or something. I'm not saying this critically. She just appeared to be awestruck.

And was that the day K spoke about "Transcendental Trash" and the "industrialized gurus" from India making a mint on the naïve Americans who were willing to pay someone to instruct them on how to "meditate" and to be given a "mantra". Well not given. You had to pay for it.

Those were the first set of talks I attended. Too much rain to meet in the Oak Grove.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 08 Sep 2017.

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Fri, 08 Sep 2017 #20
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I did a one month educational course many years ago and I was one of 18 students. I would say that one of the tutors on the course had something of the same quality of alertness that you described Jack. She was very sensitive to her students' level of engagement and very quick onto the reactions of her students.

Thanks for the input Sean. I've never been a teacher of any kind. At least not formally but I think probably the best teachers are the ones who can "tune" into their students and make and hold contact with them. It's either an art or a gift and I have experienced it from a very few people. But never like I felt it from K who was, without a doubt, the most sensitive and aware person I have ever been around.

I can think of two personal examples of this kind of sensitivity and awareness that K exhibited. Certainly not something one would expect from a person who was senile.

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