Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Just a word of thanks...


Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 105 in total
Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #61
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Angry women and posters at Kinfonet are among the things I don't take personally.

I don't care about the angry women, although you must think about them some for it to pop out like it did. About the posters; your many responses to the Kinfonet posters seem to belie that you don't take us seriously.

Look the world is in terrible shape. We are well into the Sixth Great Extinction and this one may be the last. The planet is becoming uninhabitable and at what some "experts" think may be an exponential rate. We have and idiot and probably a psychotic, narcissist, a pathological liar and so on, in the White House (which I admit may not be the first time for any of these conditions but this may be the first time they all appeared in one guy).

The guy is about 10 years old mentally. Although one person compared Trump to a toddler with a dirty diaper who isn't getting enough sleep which is making him cranky and who is within reach of a button for nuclear weapons. We're in trouble Richard. Let's at least try to get along, not agree necessarily, but get along together on this site.

Why not post regarding your own understanding of what K pointed out and let others do the same?

And yes I admit that I have often not done what I am preaching to you now. What the hell? Why not get along instead of bickering. You can do whatever you want but I'm not going to join the fray this time. Good luck to you and have a pleasant day or evening.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #62
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Ken, your quote above by Whitman. Was he referring to the Civil War and saying the truth of what that war was, what all wars are, never is reported or ever will be reported? Instead there are a great many words dedicated to glorifying war and rewriting the history of what actually happened. They have already rewritten Vietnam. That expression, history is written by the winners kind of thing. So true and so false.

If the vast majority of people could see first hand and experience first hand what war really is there wouldn't be any more war. K often said that "....if you really loved your children there wouldn't be any more war". And now we are in perpetual war with no end in sight. A windfall for the profiteers of the war machine and a death knell for the rest of us. How did our species become so stupid and destructive? Was it our "superior" intelligence, our sense of self, our deep need to acquire, our greed, our self-righteousness?

At the end of the geologic period called the Permian which was 299 to 251 million years ago 96% of all life on the earth; terrestrial and oceanic died. All life today comes from the 4% that survived that holocaust of geologic upheaval 251 million years ago. And the species that became dominant, homo sapiens sapiens, is the one that is the primary, probably the only, cause of this mass extinction we are in now.

Ironic. The ancestor of what was to become the dominant survivor of the previously worse upheaval the earth has experienced since life began around 600 million years ago is going to be the cause of what may be the final extinction event. Science works in mysterious ways (to paraphrase).

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #63
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 235 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
your many responses to the Kinfonet posters seem to belie that you don't take us seriously.

I take the activities that occure at Kinfonet to be of a sacred nature. When I attend Kinfonet I am passionate and earnest in mind-set.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #64
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The guy is about 10 years old mentally. Although one person compared Trump to a toddler with a dirty diaper who isn't getting enough sleep which is making him cranky and who is within reach of a button for nuclear weapons. We're in trouble Richard.

Hi Jack,

Probably your description is quite correct but can we assign the problem to one person ??

It's also a fact that the media circus has made the man great and a lot of voters have believed his talks, but it's also clear that the money-consuming propaganda election circus is a big theater where truth does not matter !!

Yes We're in trouble but not because one man in the White House
but because of our greed to want more and more.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 01 Aug 2017.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #65
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Wim and everyone,

I was just going to post this when I saw Wim’s comment. It is a source of pleasure for us to blame others as being responsible for the mess, isn’t it? It is so satisfying to see oneself as being clear-sighted or intelligent enough to discern the root of a problem where others just follow authority and are hoodwinked by it. It’s so tempting to follow the well-worn route of analysis and explanation. I see this in myself, that's how I know about it.

But upon reflection, analysis can in no way lead to truth, can it? Being the product of the fragmented, confused mind, can any analysis be whole and accurate? The analyzer is himself fragmented, isn’t he? Can the true source of a problem be perceived by the conflicted mind? The mind looking at the problem being itself fragmented, it looks through a fragmented contradictory tormented prism and it in turn breaks down the observed into fragments - as time, as systems, as groups, personalities and organizations. Time is an integral part of analysis, isn’t it? And as the problem keeps growing, getting more and more complex with time, time cannot illuminate truth, time cannot bring about understanding. Truth cannot be understood by analyzing the present or the past, can it?

The analyzer cannot help but insert his or her own self-centred prejudices, interpretations, ideas, beliefs, limitations, fears, etc., into his analysis, can he? As soon as the analytical faculty goes into motion, the past goes into motion with it - i.e. the self-centred prejudices, interpretations, ideas, beliefs, limitations, fears, etc. So the analysis is biased from the start, isn't it? It begins in and is based on fragmentation. How then can the very analysis which is intended to bring clarity NOT perpetuate division and stalemate? How then can analysis lead to right action? Yet we revere and cherish the past, we commemorate and memorialize the past, we cling to it.

I think that analysis is seen as a stepping-stone to solving the problem, as a basis for recommending action. But does it advance understanding as to what action to take? In the end, after all the supposedly “rational” analyses, isn’t action still simply determined by fear, anger, self-righteousness, etc.?

Is this post itself analysis? I see it as observation, self-observation, but maybe others will disagree.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Tue, 01 Aug 2017.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
The analyzer cannot help but insert his or her own self-centred prejudices, interpretations, ideas, beliefs, limitations, fears, etc., into his analysis, can he? As soon as the analytical faculty goes into motion, the past goes into motion with it - i.e. the self-centred prejudices, interpretations, ideas, beliefs, limitations, fears, etc. So the analysis is biased from the start, isn't it?

Of course we're biased, but some of us are biased in favor of protecting the environment from total destruction by selfish business interests and are biased in favor of protecting a free press. Don't I want my grandchildren to have a planet with clean air and water to grow up on? Should we stand by helplessly while a madman destroys our clean air and water and other natural resources....destroys the free press and takes total power like the Nazis did? Should we not speak out against a madman who preaches racial or national or religious superiority, and is willing to jail or murder anyone who opposes him? Do we let a madman or convicted sex offender drive a school bus? Do we not speak out when a madman is ready to empower police brutality and rape of the environment destroying rivers and streams and oceans and air quality? Do you call this self-righteousness? Don't forget, there was child labor back in Dickens' England. It was political action...self righteousness(?)...that eliminated child labor....that got us the 40 hour work week...overtime pay...health and safety rules in the workplace....food and water protections ...food and drug safety inspections. Give big money interests free reign and political power and all that could disappear.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 01 Aug 2017.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #67
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Tom,

If there’s a man-eating tiger prowling in the village, or a grizzly bear as recently happened in British Columbia, action must be taken without vilifying the animal. Is vilification action? If there’s a madman in the village, a pied piper preying on children, action must be taken. I have children and grandchildren. I don’t want any children to be prey to a disordered mind. Doesn’t the mind which takes action have to be in “order” so that the action is not skewed, corrupted, distorted by anger, fear, judgment? Is the mind which self-righteous, judgmental in order? Is it necessary to be judgmental or hateful in order to take action? If the adoring crowds listening to Hitler’s speeches with glowing eyes, with hearts filled with pride, had order in their “house”, could he have done what he did? If the French, Chinese or Russian Revolutionaries had order in their “house”, could their Revolutions have been the springboard for more atrocities? Do you see what I’m trying to say? No?

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Is it necessary to be judgmental or hateful in order to take action?

No. And it was Mrs Clinton's self righteous and very judgmental remark that helped get Trump elected. She called the Trump voters mostly 'deplorables'. I blame the self righteousness of many on the left for the rise of Trump. Hell, many on the left make ME sick with their pandering to various constituencies, and I'm normally inclined to vote liberal.

Let it Be

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #69
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I have children and grandchildren. I don’t want any children to be prey to a disordered mind. Doesn’t the mind which takes action have to be in “order” so that the action is not skewed, corrupted, distorted by anger, fear, judgment?

Yes otherwise we wind up contributing to the disorder...empowering the ones we oppose, just as Clinton and many of her supporters did. If she actually listened to some of the concerns of the Trump supporters instead of vilifying them, she might be in the White House now. But she and many on the left felt oh so superior to those 'trailer park' Whites who gave Trump their support. He convinced them that he would be their savior. Hitler did the same to the German workers.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 01 Aug 2017.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #70
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Yes We're in trouble but not because one man in the White House
but because of our greed to want more and more.

Of course not and I never said that. Trump is a very large source of potential disaster but he is just the blacken mole on the surface of the skin beneath which lies a spreading cancer. You did read the post about the Sixth Extinction didn't you? That's a very big part of what I meant when I said "We're in trouble".

Wim you are a nice guy and I appreciate your posts. But sometimes you seem to find grist for a response to something that was neither stated nor implied.

Trump is but of symptom of the anger and frustration and bigotry of a large percentage of Americans who were outraged that a black man was elected and served as president of the US. In Trump they found a representative of their bigotry, white supremacy and Fascist leanings. Also as Tom pointed out above the Democrats, Clinton et al, did just about everything they could to insure a Trump victory.

I disagree with Hugette's somewhat sanctimonious response to Tom about Trump. We must speak out against people like Trump, Hitler, Mussolini and others who inevitably lead those who would follow to kaos and war. People who exploit the anger and frustrations of a people and offer a solution that only leads to more misery must be exposed for what they are.

Trump is a very dangerous human being because he is extremely unstable and he has the power to obliterate the world. Even members of his own party are saying he is "loosing it" and is becoming very noticeably unhinged, psychotic, insane. All these words have been used to describe Trump in the past week by members of his own political party. He is a chronic "looser" who is scared to death the world will see this, as if they don't already. So he goes to greater and greater extremes to cover it up or divert the world's attention away from his incompetence.

Philosophizing about this or that on a site like this will have very little meaning if someone like Trump ends up turning this once garden planet into a smoking ember revolving around the sun.

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Tue, 01 Aug 2017 #71
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Now look at how many people promote this communication thing here at Kinfonet. What does K say about this use of knowledge? He generally uses the word communion when he points to the futility of using knowledge/information/communication when we are looking into human psychological issues.

Hi Richard and all. Yes, K did talk about communion. Without looking up a quote, I understand that word to mean something more than communication. I understand it to mean a mutual interest, understanding and perhaps affection when exploring something as equals. Is that what you understand by the word "communion" Richard? Would you agree that in investigating and exploring Krishnamurti's teachings on this forum, a degree of "communion" would be very positive?

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #72
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1858 posts in this forum Offline

Trump is the epitome of the 'self'. He is the total danger that K consistently pointed out which makes up the 'self'. Which we all are unless it is understood.

So to have a man with absolutely no self-awareness in such a position of power is a big lesson to humanity - but the lesson is about the 'self' - not about Trump.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #73
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

70:

Jack Pine wrote:
I disagree with Hugette's somewhat sanctimonious response to Tom about Trump. We must speak out against people like Trump, Hitler, Mussolini and others who inevitably lead those who would follow to kaos and war. People who exploit the anger and frustrations of a people and offer a solution that only leads to more misery must be exposed for what they are.

Jack,

I did not say one mustn’t speak out. I only said that before one takes any action, one must put one’s own house in order. To put one’s house in order, one must learn about oneself in the way we talk about here.

Speaking out is action. “Madmen” like Hitler, Trump, Mussolini and others like them also speak out and warn people about the dangers of certain political, professional, ethnic, social and religious groups, don’t they? So while you're warning others about Trump being dangerous, Trump is doing his own warning and he has a large receptive audience.

I too am speaking out in my own way, as others here do. So we have a cacophony of voices “speaking out”, some calm, some strident, some angry, some hateful, some thoughtful, some peaceful, some deceitful, some deceived. I don’t say that one must not speak out. If one's house is in order, I think it can't help but be reflected in what one says and it just might arouse someone. And if one's house is not in order, what one says must necessarily contribute to the division, I think.

It may be that I AM “somewhat” sanctimonious or supercilious. If I do feel superior to others, of course it can’t help but be reflected in my words. As far as I can tell, I don't feel that way. I’m not sure that you’re right about me.... but you might be.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 02 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 02 Aug 2017 #74
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Wim you are a nice guy and I appreciate your posts.

Don't feed my ego too much, Jack ;-)

On my daily activity of reading my mailes I also look at the daily quote and some of the replies.

I didn't knew nothing of 'Sixth Extinction' so investigated it on internet and realized again that very small things can have very great impact.
You probably also know that genetical - we humans - difference from the apes for only 2% and look what a different outcome.

And yes may be - we humans - will be the last Monkey type on earth or as you say will go up in smoke and that's all because as :

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Trump is the epitome of the 'self'. He is the total danger that K consistently pointed out
which makes up the 'self'. Which we all are unless it is understood.

So to have a man with absolutely no self-awareness in such a position of power
is a big lesson to humanity - but the lesson is about the 'self' - not about Trump.

My humble contribution to this forum is not to criticize others but to give my view on the matter. It may be good, wrong and/or incomplete and it keeps me sharp and sometimes I learn something about my environment or my own reactions.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 03 Aug 2017 #75
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 235 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I understand that word to mean something more than communication.

Yes, but it is still just a word. In any case, I don't recall that there is any implication that something of that nature could or should exist over the internet. :)

The point though, when I did use that word in a recent post, was that when folks here recommend I get right communication with the good folks here, is a little like my Christian friends telling me I need some Jesus.

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Sun, 06 Aug 2017 #76
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1162 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Trump is the epitome of the 'self'. He is the total danger that K consistently pointed out which makes up the 'self'. Which we all are unless it is understood.

There is a genetic component to narcissism. What if Trump was just born that way? Is self built into DNA?

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Sun, 06 Aug 2017 #77
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1858 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
There is a genetic component to narcissism.

So they say. They could be wrong. Question everything! :)

Is self built into DNA?

Is self the greatest invention of self?

Is a narcissist just an ordinary unaware human being who is very 'good' at that invention? And very easily deluded into completely believing in it? :)

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sun, 06 Aug 2017.

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Sun, 06 Aug 2017 #78
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
There is a genetic component to narcissism. What if Trump was just born that way? Is self built into DNA?

Dave I want to tell both you and Patricia something I deeply believe is accurate. Trump is a self-made man in that he is without a doubt the worse human being I have ever heard of. He has worked hard and diligently to obtain this. He has absolutely no saving graces, no positive personality traits. Among many other things he is a consummate and pathological liar. He lives in an almost completely delusional world. He is a bigot, a racist, a cheat, a sociopath, a fat slob (he lives on McDonald's processed garbage food) and there is a fairly good chance that he has or is sexually molesting his daughter.

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Mon, 07 Aug 2017 #79
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Jack,

I also want to tell you something and I hope that you won’t be angry. I’m not saying you’re wrong about Trump. There are millions, perhaps billions, in the U.S. and around the world who agree with you. Although most politicians are dangerous and dishonest I think (not Bernie Sanders!), I do feel that Trump is a particularly dangerous madman. But his supporters are not turning their backs on him and isn’t that what makes him so dangerous?

So what does it accomplish to denounce Trump as a liar, a cheat, a sociopath, and so on? What can one actually do other than to preach to the choir? Plot against him? Mobilize and go to war? Aren’t these the ways of time, the traditional ways? So after all our talk about understanding the nature and processes of self, time, consciousness and division, and the importance of awareness, we can only turn to these traditional ways of resolving conflict? Are we not ready or willing to act in a totally new way?

I’m not saying we must “set our own house in order” BEFORE we rail against Trump. I’m not saying that once we establish order in our own mind, then we will be entitled to tearing Trump down. It’s not a question of the pot calling the kettle black. I’m saying that if “I” am in disorder, whatever I say and do will reflect that. And if my own house is in order, whatever I say and do will reflect it.

Even most of those who vehemently oppose him are not against war, against drone strikes, against collateral damage, against exploitation and neglect, against the present order (disorder) of things, if it means they must give up what they have, are they? I could be mistaken.

I’m surely not expressing myself very clearly. Is there a way for us to talk to each other without being governed by fear and desire? If you and I, two strangers, can’t understand each other, can't get past our own disorder, how can we communicate truth or danger to the world? Don’t you wonder about it? Am I being sanctimonious?

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Tue, 08 Aug 2017 #80
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Trump is a particularly dangerous madman. But his supporters are not turning their backs on him and isn’t that what makes him so dangerous?

Well yes that's certainly part of it. It appears that about 35% of American voters have consistently supported him. Many are avowed racist, fascists and other extreme rightwing hate groups. That's one of the things that makes this so depressing. Trump is also one of the greatest factors in causing a huge division in the American public. Friends "defriending" lifelong friends on social media. I don't think there has ever been a person more divisive than Trump in the US (by the way I agree with you on Bernie. I have supported him since he was a Congressman).

Huguette . wrote:
So after all our talk about understanding the nature and processes of self, time, consciousness and division, and the importance of awareness, we can only turn to these traditional ways of resolving conflict? Are we not ready or willing to act in a totally new way?

What do you suggest? Passive resistance? Ignoring the destructive affect of a psychopath with so much power? I believe that it is important to speak out about Trump. One of my closest friends is a Trump supporter and I told him how I feel about Trump. He things Trump is really smart and has a plan. He also thinks that the contrails, the vapor trails, that high flying aircraft produce and that streams behind them is poison that "they" are spreading on all of us.

Huguette . wrote:
I’m saying that if “I” am in disorder, whatever I say and do will reflect that. And if my own house is in order, whatever I say and do will reflect it.

I am, of course, nothing like K was. I have read K, listened to K and even spoke briefly to K on two occasions. But that doesn't give me any advantage at all. Saying this I am reminded of hearing K speak of what he referred to as "Transcendental Trash (Meditation)" and of how much he deplored the "guru industry" that invaded the West especially the US. I remember K relating an incident when he was on the same airplane with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the inventor of TM, and of how he, K, turned away from the Yogi when the Yogi came up the aisle of the airplane holding a rose in his had to speak with K. K clearly had no use for the Yogi or his "racket" as K referred to it. And K felt and spoke very strongly against TM and his inventor.

I feel very strongly opposed to "neoliberals", fascists, Nazis, Republicans and many Democrats. And I speak out against them and shun them. You get my drift? What's wrong with that and how is it inconsistent with what K pointed out?

Huguette . wrote:
Even most of those who vehemently oppose him are not against war, against drone strikes, against collateral damage, against exploitation and neglect, against the present order (disorder) of things...

You are probably right about this although neither of us have the figures, the facts to prove it.

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Tue, 08 Aug 2017 #81
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I’m surely not expressing myself very clearly.

Actually I think you are expressing yourself clearly enough and I appreciate the time and effort you have made to express your thoughts.

Huguette . wrote:
Is there a way for us to talk to each other without being governed by fear and desire? If you and I, two strangers, can’t understand each other, can't get past our own disorder, how can we communicate truth or danger to the world?

Well of course this is the problem that is facing the world. We don't communicate very well with each other. Most of us have been deeply conditioned by our religious and nationalistic beliefs and we feel we need to defend "our way of life" against those who live another way. Why in the hell we can't all live the way we want is a mystery to me.

I got drafted into a war that I had no opinion about before being drafted. A war against a small agrarian country that had no intention and certainly not the means to attack the US. But the US being an empire and wishing to control as much of the world as it can invaded this country and eventually killed a million and a half of it's citizens. A war crime. I was in my early 20's when I got pulled into this criminal activity. I didn't have the wherewithal to leave my home, family and country to go to Canada and I was way too good looking to go to prison (ok this last statement was joking). So I saw first hand the horror, the wanton murder, the destruction of the life and culture of a country that did nothing to deserve it. And I read about and see the cowardly and wanton murder by drone and other weapons of people who cannot defend themselves. And I cannot help but to despise, deplore and speak out against those who perpetuate this industrialized killing.

And maybe this is something that will forever keep me trapped in my feeling that I need to say what I say against the criminal, murderous, sociopathic policies of the country I presently live in.

I once lived, had the feeling, of a sense of well-being of love of life, of peace of sorts that reading and listening to K live filled me with but that was before Reagan, Bush and Trump. Clinton and Obama weren't much better. Now I feel a sense of dread about where the world is heading. Of the horror that will be the life of those who are young today.

The only way I have found to deal with this, so far, is that half the year I live in the Rocky Mountains and I walk every morning in the forests on the side of the 14,000 plus foot mountain I live under. In the other six months I live in Ojai in a small place that touches the KFA Foundation land that is part of the Oak Grove School and I walk on that land and other places around Ojai everyday when I am there.

I feel empty and drained and the only thing left from my contact with K's teachings is the effortless, nearly judgeless and almost habitual watching of my feelings, thoughts, reactions to all of it. I simply can't discuss K anymore. There is nothing more to say, to add to what he said. I don't know if he was right or not. All I can do is watch. I feel like I'm waiting for something and I don't know what. Maybe it's just waiting to die

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Tue, 08 Aug 2017 #82
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Anyway, Huguette, thanks for "reaching out" to me. And I apologize for calling you "sanctimonious". It's too easy to judge others.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 08 Aug 2017.

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Tue, 08 Aug 2017 #83
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
One of my closest friends is a Trump supporter and I told him how I feel about Trump. He things Trump is really smart and has a plan. He also thinks that the contrails, the vapor trails, that high flying aircraft produce and that streams behind them is poison that "they" are spreading on all of us.

I'm sorry for you to have such a person as 'one of your closest friends' but also sorry for your friend who is surely topsy-turvy and in need of such friends as you are.

But may I suggest to you, talk to him with love and care
for example in the way K. talked for so long to audience may be you touch his inner life.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 08 Aug 2017.

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Tue, 08 Aug 2017 #84
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Well of course this is the problem that is facing the world. We don't communicate very well with each other. Most of us have been deeply conditioned by our religious and nationalistic beliefs and we feel we need to defend "our way of life" against those who live another way. Why in the hell we can't all live the way we want is a mystery to me.

Because of 'me', 'me', 'me'....me first. Because we share this earth with others. Because self-centeredness makes it impossible to live in peace with our fellow man. Because the oligarchs in power want total control and power, and would make the rest of us into slaves if they could have their way. Others want to sit home in front of the TV all day and get high and collect a government check that the rest of us pay for out of our taxes. Lots of reasons why we can't get along, but I guess they all boil down to each of us putting ourselves first. The extreme example is a billionaire like Trump and the Koch bros. But ordinary examples are to be found everywhere. A musician friend back in the '70's used to practice being the next Rolling Stone in his living room with his guitar amp turn way up. His neighbor used to hate the racket and asked him to turn it down. He ignored her. His pleasure and fulfillment came first, and she suffered. We can't just each of us live the way we want and still have a peaceful, harmonious society. We need to find a way to live in harmony with one another....obviously. the alternative is what we have now.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 08 Aug 2017.

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Wed, 09 Aug 2017 #85
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 235 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Others want to sit home in front of the TV all day and get high and collect a government check that the rest of us pay for out of our taxes

Tom, why single out poor people with little if any real opportunity to be self-sufficient as a drain on our tax base?

Of course the real drain is from the "military-industrial complex'?

Major corporations/banksters are putting us in position to be a "third-world" state in the very near future. Billions and billions put secretly into our "intelligence" community without any accounting or accountability. Please have more compassion for the lowest of the low.

P.S., I watch little, if any, television. :)

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Wed, 09 Aug 2017 #86
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Tom, why single out poor people with little if any real opportunity to be self-sufficient as a drain on our tax base?

I hear you, Richard. If all you can find is a minimum wage job, you can't even afford to pay the rent on a one bedroom apartment...let alone a car to get around. In my neck of the woods a car is almost mandatory if you're job hunting, let alone to get to the supermarket. It's insane that we expect workers to live on minimum, or near minimum, wage pay when rich CEO's and Wall Street hedge fund managers make close to a thousand times more than that. I was thinking when I wrote that post of a woman from Denmark I met online...a musician...who sits home all day smoking weed and composing electronic music on her computer. She could probably find a job since she has a strong background in computers, but she prefers to take the easy way. Well, it seems that way, anyway. I don't want to judge since I don't know her very well. The point I was trying to make is that we're doomed as long as we're each of us only seeking our own fulfillment....whether we're rich or poor.

Let it Be

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Wed, 09 Aug 2017 #87
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you for your responses, Jack. I feel I want to say more, that I cannot leave our conversation at that. I feel that there is much more to be said, to be understood between us…. Not just for YOU to understand but for ME to understand as well.

These matters are truly so important. We're not just killing time. It is in talking things over that things sometimes do become clear, isn’t it? At least it is for me, even if it is often talking things over with myself, on paper. As I said, I’m NOT saying one must not speak out. As you can see, I’m doing a lot of talking even though I’m not sure “whereof I speak”, and maybe I’m speaking too much. So please just ignore me if you think there is nothing further to be said or if I’m going on too long.

As a very simple example, if I see you’re about to step on a rattlesnake, or step into an open pit in the sidewalk, or eat poisoned food, I MUST speak up and warn you. I don’t hate the rattlesnake, the open pit or the poisoned food. There’s neither personal animosity nor a desire to be a hero underlying my action of speaking out. I’m just telling you, look, open your eyes, see the snake, the hole, the poison. In the same way, you feel responsible for pointing out the dangers of Trump to your friend. And as you point out, K did speak out, for 60 years. The danger that he warned of was pretty much what Patricia stated at #72, in my view.

There is no question for me that Trump is dangerous. But the world’s social and psychological disintegration did not begin with Trump, did it? “The world” has faced many crises of the same nature, brought about by greed, crassness, conceit, self-righteousness, vanity, duplicity, desire, fear, selfishness, corruption, lies, and so on. Aren’t the extraordinary capabilities of modern weaponry - their speed, power, reach, etc. - one of the factors which has now amplified the danger? Isn’t another factor the extent and irreversibility of pollution and climate change? The situation is dire. One cannot be silent.

What do YOU suggest, Jack? Our hearts may be in the right place, we may have the best intentions but, being fragmented psychologically, can we devise the right plan of action, zero in on what needs to be done, actually take the right action? After all, when we follow our hearts and minds and we do speak out, it’s not with the desire to make matters worse but better, isn’t it? And can the outcome of the “us against them” duality make things better? After 1000s of years, will we succeed in finally ending conflict through conflict?

So I think we must speak out but hesitantly, because if in our speaking out there is the authority of certainty, this not only creates a division between the speaker and the listener, it is essentially based on fragmented memory. Certainty/authority is memory-based, isn’t it? If there is a shadow within ME of the psychological mechanisms or processes which animate Trump’s actions - and there IS a shadow - then I cannot consider myself to be a human being of a totally different quality from Trump. As long as there is fear, confusion, contradiction, conceit, greed, and so on, in ME, then I and Trump are not fundamentally different human beings. We are both heading north. Then I must be hesitant, watchful, looking for those shadows as I speak out. My interest is in pointing out the dangers of following Trump, not in pointing out that he is evil. I say let him follow the misguided path of evil, just don’t give him power by following him, by giving him authority, by trusting him. Following him, giving him authority, trusting him also comes from those shadows of fear and greed, doesn’t it? If there were no great dangers facing us today, if the world were in a phase of serenity, prosperity, justice for all, could someone like Trump get a foothold in his ascent to power?

And if one speaks out as an authority, if the message is authoritarian, that message conveys only the tone and not understanding, doesn’t it? Then what good does speaking out do?

But if each of us lays the foundation for order within his own psyche, even while seeing the dangers around us, will there not be right action in every field or sphere of life - in the family, in the neighbourhood, politically, socially, economically, globally? Not right action based on the authority of self but spontaneous, naturally-flowing right action. Can I act rightly in one sphere of my life while acting wrongly in the other spheres? Are there actually spheres in my life or is my life an undivided whole? Isn’t inner order the only thing which can establish right relationship on every level - with family, neighbours, co-workers, strangers, politicians, priests, bus drivers, storekeepers, consumerism, nature, and so on? Don’t ask me what “right relationship” or “right action” means, what it looks like. I don’t mean that it must be full of hugs, lovey-dovey and kumbaya. I don’t know what it actually is.

Also, I don’t know if “laying the foundation for order” leads to right action. It does seem so to me. I see in my own life that whenever I act out of pretense or fear, the outcome is more fragmentation.

Sorry to be so verbose but I don't know how to express it in 30 words or less.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 09 Aug 2017.

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Sat, 12 Aug 2017 #88
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1162 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

dave h wrote:

There is a genetic component to narcissism.

So they say. They could be wrong. Question everything! :)

Is self built into DNA?

Is self the greatest invention of self?

Is a narcissist just an ordinary unaware human being who is very 'good' at that invention? And very easily deluded into completely believing in it? :)

Have a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

See Biological and Environmental.

I am not trying to pick a hole in anyone's argument here. Also, this is just social statistics, not therapeutic psychology, so it's not at odds with anything K has said, as far as I can tell.

To me, the main challenge we face as a species is how to respond to such people, and their how they interact with all of us, either directly, or by obtaining positions of power in business or politics. Sure, we can observe these traits in ourselves, and perhaps gain some self-awareness, but I can't see it having any effect on e.g. psychopaths what so-ever. They have no empathy, no shame - they just don't care. You can put your house in order, but this will go on and on.

So what to do?

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Sat, 12 Aug 2017 #89
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 412 posts in this forum Offline

88:

dave h wrote:
Sure, we can observe these traits in ourselves, and perhaps gain some self-awareness, but I can't see it having any effect on e.g. psychopaths what so-ever. They have no empathy, no shame - they just don't care. You can put your house in order, but this will go on and on.

So what to do?

Dave,

Are you saying that there’s no point in putting your house in order unless you can be sure that it will have an effect on psychopaths etc.? Does one put his house in order only as a stepping stone to gaining something else? Or does one embark on the journey of self-understanding because there is a natural curiosity, a natural impulse, to find something totally new? Something other than the inner conflicts which colour my existence. There may be no such thing, no such condition, but isn't one driven by an intense curiosity to look into it?

The experts may explain psychopathy and everything else under the sun, but how do I face life? Who can help me with that? Isn’t there something in most of us that is completely dissatisfied with the present order of things, something that yearns for a totally different way of living?

Anything that I decide in the circumstances must come out of my own disorder, no? If there IS such a thing as inner order, then can I - out of my disordered, conflicted, contradictory state - decide how to sanely deal with psychopaths?

So I want to put my house in order simply because I don’t want to live in disorder. I can’t know what putting my house in order means unless I do it. I may put my house in order and be burned alive by a psychopath. That has happened and is happening. As for me, I still want to put my house in order, to understand what it means, what it entails, to understand my own disorder, fears, compulsions, contradictions, pretenses, conceits, to understand the significance of all of life.

I'm really not saying that I'm right about it. It's my way of seeing it.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 12 Aug 2017.

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Sat, 12 Aug 2017 #90
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1162 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Anything that I decide in the circumstances must come out of my own disorder, no? If there IS such a thing as inner order, then can I - out of my disordered, conflicted, contradictory state - decide how to sanely deal with psychopaths?

Well, how will you decide to achieve inner order (or anything) from a state of disorder? How do you deal with psychopaths/narcissists in your life? How do you deal with disease/illness?

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