Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Just a word of thanks...


Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 105 in total
Sat, 15 Jul 2017 #1
Thumb_dsc00089_2_ Katy Alias United Kingdom 339 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Everyone,

I just wanted to say 'enormous thanks'...

Your collective interest, 'different kind of intelligence' K spoke about and sure erudition has definitely helped to catalyse my understanding of K's teaching - and how to write in a way which seems helpful with others 'out there' in life - especially with/for those who are being the most tortured in and by it - in/by life...in this world which presents us all with so much needless rack and ruin...the 'sense of urgency' is truly seen now by this nobody - writer ; I am typing as fast as I can !

Edward, a writer in Facebook, told me that I am 'one of the most compassionate and intelligent' writers there...Glory, this was surely on my blind side... and I owe this 'gift' to you all.

Yours humbly, Katy

p.s I hope Dev will forgive me for posting another beautiful song - and you, especially, Jack. I see/regard you as the minder of this fort !

(Bob Dylan's music and lyrics help to keep me going in the background)

Enjoy :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2XwL-IL4UY

This post was last updated by Katy Alias Sat, 14 Oct 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 17 Jul 2017 #2
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Katy,

Nice to see you back here!

Jack hasn't been around for a few weeks in this forum. It would be good to hear more from both of you soon!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 25 Jul 2017 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Alias wrote:
Jack. I see/regard you as the minder of this fort, sir !

Hi Katy I hope you are well. It's nice to "see" you here again. You know I never claimed that title nor wanted it. But we have a had a few people, one in particular, who was the very antithesis of what K was pointing out and who flooded the forum with his own misinterpretations that someone had to say something.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 25 Jul 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 25 Jul 2017 #4
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks Sean. And I hope you are well too. I feel like the world is in a very precarious position. The so-called "leader of the free-world" is a petty, vindictive 10 year old who routinely throws tantrums and seeks blind revenge on all those he imagines are against him. He has his finger on a nuclear trigger and he is most certainly stupid enough to pull that trigger.

It is beyond comprehension that someone like this could be elected but it was inevitable I suppose for the oligarchy that the US has long since become to elect just such a person. We are speeding in the very opposite direction from what K pointed out. It sort of takes the wind out of your sails as the old saying goes.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 25 Jul 2017 #5
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
We are speeding in the very opposite direction from what K pointed out. It sort of takes the wind out of your sails as the old saying goes.

I've been feeling pretty much the same, Jack. It almost makes me literally sick to watch the total madness of this administration and the sickening GOP. But this is a K forum so I won't go on about this other than to say our president seems to be totally mad, almost in a league with the freaking Nazis. I'm sure if he could get the power to do so, he'd have no problem with shutting down the free press as Hitler did.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 25 Jul 2017 #6
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 1214 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
It sort of takes the wind out of your sails as the old saying goes.

Hi Jack

I know, it comes as a shock to realize so many people can go along with this...but it brings home K.'s message that the house is indeed burning. And the need is greater than ever to realize this in ourselves. How the 'self' works in every situation, how it maintains its equilibrium, its 'self-esteem'. And how when something or someone knocks it off its track, how desperately it tries to get back into its 'old groove'.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 25 Jul 2017 #7
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 1214 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
It almost makes me literally sick to watch the total madness of this administration and the sickening GOP.

Having a strong sense of shame keeps most of us from doing terrible things. Because when we do something 'wrong', even if its inadvertent, we suffer for it. What it seems we are seeing now is a lot of 'shameless' people coming to power. In their greed for money and power, feeling 'bad' about the negative consequences stemming from their actions is considered a weakness, an impediment. Many get into their wealth and power because they really 'feel' no shame. Doing the 'right thing' is for losers and suckers. It's an upside down morality.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Tue, 25 Jul 2017 #8
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
makes me literally sick to watch the total madness of this administration and the sickening GOP.

This is the beauty of the "system" of mind controls we call society. It pits us-vs-them. So our attention is drawn to the entertainment (which is the work of our "free press") of conflict. Can you imagine how sick the right was while we had that damn "liberal" in office for 8 years? :)

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 26 Jul 2017 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Can you imagine how sick the right was while we had that damn "liberal" in office for 8 years? :)

Of course they were, but you're missing the point here. We're not talking about the difference between Democrat and Republican, liberal and conservative. With Trump we're talking about a madman....a sociopath...a pathological liar, who, if he could do it, would take away all the freedoms guaranteed by our Bill of Rights. I mean Richard, would you compare a relatively(!) sane politician with all his/her flaws to a lunatic like Hitler? We're talking potential tyranny here with a nutcase like Trump. The Bushes and Clintons and Obamas, and even Reagan, with all their flaws, were in a different category from this guy.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 26 Jul 2017 #10
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
you're missing the point here.

No no, the point is us and them. Was Hitler a maniac? Or was Truman, who unleashed weapons of mass destruction on civilians? I mean, come on, history is not what we read in school books. We take sides based on the information available. We ignore Hiroshima and focus on Sadaam Hussain. Us, good guys them, bad guys. You/we can proclaim that we are unbiased and neutral but we are not.

This post was last updated by richard head Wed, 26 Jul 2017.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 2 readers
Back to Top
Wed, 26 Jul 2017 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Was Hitler a maniac? Or was Truman, who unleashed weapons of mass destruction on civilians?

Hitler was a total madman who would have enslaved and exterminated countless more millions than he did if he was not stopped. No, I don't believe all world leaders are equally mad. Nor do I believe Obama, or even Clinton, are anywhere near as insane as Trump and the far right wing nuts like Alex Jones on info wars....who Trump has praised, if I'm not mistaken. Of course there are extremists on the left here, too. The Nazi Gestapo under Himmler and the NY Police under mayor De Blasio are not equivalent. You'd have to be totally blind to think that.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 26 Jul 2017 #12
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I don't believe all world leaders are equally mad.

The human mind is mad/insane, some minds are in better position than others to express. Go ask Mr. Krishnamurti if you don't believe me.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 26 Jul 2017 #13
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Hitler was a total madman

It's amazing how some can make a diagnosis such as this based on history books.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #14
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
It's amazing how some can make a diagnosis such as this based on history books.

Oh come on...you can read his speeches for yourself....and his views on race and the Jews. Remember that stuff about the Aryan race...the master race, he called it, who were supposed to rule the world? Exterminating 6 + million because of their religion or ethnicity or political views? You think he wasn't insane...really??

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 27 Jul 2017.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #15
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
You think he wasn't insane...really??

I think that is a loaded word. Insane? Then a majority are so. He didn't exist in a vacume.

In any case, individuals are not the point. The minds ineffective model of relationship.....is.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
I think that is a loaded word. Insane? Then a majority are so. He didn't exist in a vacume.

In any case, individuals are not the point. The minds ineffective model of relationship.....is.

Well Richard don't you think you are straining the point you're trying to make just a little? If everyone is insane then it's over. Thought is certainly limited, conditioned and often irrational but insane? Uniformly insane? I don't think so.

You really don't see the difference between Hitler, Mussolini, Trump (who bears a remarkable resemblance to the Italian dictator both in appearance and childish, arrogant facial expressions and body language) and the majority of humans? Now I will grant you that Obama, Clinton, Bush I and II and other presidents are mass murders. K often referred to war as "legalized murder" which, of course, it is.

I'll give you an example of varying degrees of insanity. I was drafted into the army and was eventually sent to Vietnam as a rifleman in an infantry company. About 10% of the guys I served my time with were clearly psychopaths. They would kill people, unarmed people, without warning or reason. Much like a large percentage of our police persons in this country are doing to our civilian population even as we speak. Do you know what it takes to look an innocent person in the eye and shoot them dead? I don't either. I simply can't imagine being able to do that. Most of us in Vietnam couldn't and didn't do that. So don't lump me and the rest of 90% of the young men who were forced to endure Vietnam (some chose to go prison or Canada and I respect them very much for that) with the 10 percentile who were psychopaths.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 27 Jul 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Exterminating 6 + million because of their religion or ethnicity or political views? You think he wasn't insane...really??

Tom I understand why you used the number "6 million" when talking about the numbers Hitler exterminated. We have all been bombarded by Zionist propaganda all of our lives.

Six million is the number of Jews who were thought to have been exterminated by Hitler. Which is probably true and undeniably horrible and unforgivable. But in fact Hitler's prison camps exterminated at least 20 million. Fourteen million of whom were, presumably, not Jews. Don't they deserve to be mentioned too?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 27 Jul 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #18
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
But in fact Hitler's prison camps exterminated at least 20 million. Fourteen million of whom were, presumably, not Jews. Don't they deserve to be mentioned too?

Thanks for the correction, Jack. And to Richard....not all of us would willfully send innocent civilians, including women and children, to the gas chambers. Degrees of insanity, yes. There's a physician working for the Red Cross to save lives...and there's a Charles Manson. Which one of those would you want your daughter, if you had one, to be dating?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 27 Jul 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #19
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I'll give you an example of varying degrees of insanity

Calm down Mr. Pine. On Kinfonet, we are not discussing legitimate psychological disturbance, are we? We are discussing the common human experience, aren't we? I am not saying anything that Mr. Krishnamurti didn't point out, am I? In fact, it is yourself and Mr. Paine that are contradicting mR. K in substance, no?

This post was last updated by richard head Thu, 27 Jul 2017.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #20
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Which one of those would you want your daughter, if you had one, to be dating?

Mr. Paine, Tom please, tell me you don't view humanity as a collection of individuals whom we need to analyze one by one in order to discover what makes them tick??

This is the traditional methodology employed by the academic discipline we refer to as psych-ology. Listen to the things K had to say about that path.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #21
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
....not all of us would willfully send innocent civilians, including women and children, to the gas chambers

Awfully sure of your self, aren't you Tom. If you/we have never been in position to find out the fact, we/you can make any claim about what we/you might or might not do. The human mind needs to understand what it means to be humble. We should not make grand proclamations about an entity we have not discovered the truth/fact about.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #22
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Mr. Paine, Tom please, tell me you don't view humanity as a collection of individuals whom we need to analyze one by one in order to discover what makes them tick??

NO. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here. I'M simply differentiating between a madman and the rest of humanity in practical terms. I wouldn't want my daughter dating a madman...that's all. I might not want her dating a right wing Republican either, but I'd prefer that to a Charles Manson. No one's analyzing here...nor feeling superior to the madman. A madman or violent criminal is simply more dangerous to one's physical well being. BTW, K did call Hitler a madman. Donn't know the exact quote but it had to do with Germany being ruled by a madman. I don't feel superior, nor essentially different, from the drug dealers and gang bangers in the hood a mile or so from my apartment. But I wouldn't want my sister dating one.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #23
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

....not all of us would willfully send innocent civilians, including women and children, to the gas chambers
Awfully sure of your self, aren't you Tom.

What the hell are you getting at R? Of course I'm sure I don't have any desire to exterminate a whole race or religion like Hitler wanted. Nor would I willfully send an innocent child to his/her death. However if I was brought up in the early 20th century in Austria in the same culture as Hitler with a strict father who beat me daily, who knows what I might do. My mind is not essentially different than the Nazi's mind, but my conditioning....my background...is very different.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 27 Jul 2017 #24
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here. I'M simply differentiating between a madman and the rest of humanity in practical terms

Right. As I indicated to Mr. Pine, real expressed mental illness is not what we are discussing on Kinfonet.

Again, you didn't address my point about Mr. Truman. Does History, or even Mr. K, consider him a "madman"? So, "our" madmen are ok, and "their" madman are not?

The point being, when we take a position on this or that, we must defend that from other contradicting positions. Us and them.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jul 2017 #25
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 216 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
who knows what I might do. My mind is not essentially different than the Nazi's mind, but my conditioning....my background...is very different.

This is all I was saying. I was not being personal to you Tom Paine.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jul 2017 #26
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3067 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Again, you didn't address my point about Mr. Truman. Does History, or even Mr. K, consider him a "madman"?

The history books don't. I don't know what K thought about that monstrous act on the Japanese civilian population. It's really unthinkable in its monstrosity.

richard head wrote:
The point being, when we take a position on this or that, we must defend that from other contradicting positions. Us and them.

Could you elaborate on that point? I see some obvious examples like the liberal position on economic issues vs. the conservative position. Or the Christian view of moralitywhich considers itself to be superior to the Hindu or the atheist view.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jul 2017 #27
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I'll give you an example of varying degrees of insanity. I was drafted into the army and was eventually sent to Vietnam as a rifleman in an infantry company. About 10% of the guys I served my time with were clearly psychopaths. They would kill people, unarmed people, without warning or reason.

Hi Jack and all. Seeing the horrors of the Vietnam War at first hand must have been very traumatic. Anyone who could kill an unarmed person in the way in which you described is clearly deeply disturbed and something is far wrong. Maybe it's all about understanding. Maybe we don't fully understand that in killing another person we destroy ourselves. We are confused and understand things partially and this leads to behaviour which brings about conflict and violence. When we see something clearly and really understand, our behaviour changes. I suppose many people never have the chance to learn much about the important things in life. It's important to have access to a good education system and grow up in a supportive, caring home environment. I don't think people are evil by nature but are sometimes warped by terrible experiences and conditioning.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jul 2017 #28
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

richard head wrote:
Calm down Mr. Pine. On Kinfonet, we are not discussing legitimate psychological disturbance, are we? We are discussing the common human experience, aren't we? I am not saying anything that Mr. Krishnamurti didn't point out, am I?

First of all there is no need to make personal comments about another's personal state of mind. Especially when you don't know that other person at all. I am perfectly calm. And yes in the discussions of what K pointed out we are certainly discussing "legitimate" psychological disturbance along with many other things.

Then after rejecting "legitimate" (whatever that means) psychological disturbance you go on to write that we are discussing the common human experience. "Legitimate" psychological disturbance is part of the common human experience. Do you see the inconsistency here?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jul 2017 #29
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Anyone who could kill an unarmed person in the way in which you described is clearly deeply disturbed and something is far wrong. Maybe it's all about understanding. Maybe we don't fully understand that in killing another person we destroy ourselves.

Yes it is partly about not understanding what killing another human being and that we, as part of humanity, are killing ourselves. But as you know Sean we are not educated, conditioned with seeing life that way. On the contrary the young men who served in Vietnam grew up in the aftermath of WWII thinking war was glorious and patriotic. All the John Wayne movies and so forth.

But as a young man myself I was exposed for the first time to the fact, as I have pointed out, that there are psychologically defective human beings who do not possess the mental restraint that keeps us all from being murderers. We call them psychopaths or sociopaths. People who can kill a man, woman or child without remorse.

The point I'm trying to make is that there was a huge gap between most of us in combat in Vietnam and about 10% who could freely kill. I think a lot of these 10% who survived became cops. Certainly we have that problem of wanton murder with a shocking number of police here in the US.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jul 2017 #30
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4906 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The history books don't. I don't know what K thought about that monstrous act on the Japanese civilian population. It's really unthinkable in its monstrosity.

Actually Tom K did express his feeling of horror and the wholesale loss of life particularly from aerial bombing in the European theatre during WWII. I don't know if he reacted to what Truman did with "the bomb" in two Japanese cities. What Truman did was indeed a war crime.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 105 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)