Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Krishnamurti Miscellanea For The Curious


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Thu, 06 Jul 2017 #31
Thumb_k2 Ken D United States 60 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Sure. He was obviously afraid and not free of fear.

Then what is the point of understanding the nature of fear while still being controlled by it? And make no mistake, to Krishnamurti fear in so many ways is something very dangerous and detrimental to healthy living. After all, it is the fear itself which is needlessly wrecking the mind. So what difference does it make to listen to Krishnamurti's views on the subject? It's like observing all the pipes under the kitchen sink but not knowing how to fix the faucet when it starts leaking. Listening to Krishamurti's observations on fear is no different than never having heard them.

"What emptiness do you gaze upon! Do you not feel a thrill passing through the air with the notes of the far-away song floating from the other shore?" Rabindranath Tagore

This post was last updated by Ken D Thu, 06 Jul 2017.

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Thu, 06 Jul 2017 #32
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 307 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Then what is the point of understanding the nature of fear while still being controlled by it?

As I said, love and fear are like magnetized objects repelling. If you're afraid, your response is defended, self-centered. If you're without fear, you are naturally open, caring, kind, attentive. This is a moment by moment thing. So at any given time, love or fear may be operational. This is my understanding. For me, letting go of fear and opening to love is moment to moment renewal. I'm not always perfect. I'm human and sometimes when danger arises, fear does, too.

To me the point of understanding the nature of fear is to free myself from it as it occurs, with awareness, to the degree that is possible. To see it and understand it. And if possible, to allow love to flower. But as I said, I'm not perfect by any means.

K, however, claimed to be completely free of fear. "It's finished!" In other words, he claimed to be at a point of no return where fear was permanently gone. But your examples call into question if that was really so.

What is your view on this, Ken? You brought up these examples for a reason. Do you feel they invalidate K's teachings on fear? Were they momentary lapses by K? Or did he not always live the teachings, which implies hypocrisy at least some of the time, doesn't it?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 06 Jul 2017.

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Thu, 06 Jul 2017 #33
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3098 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
What is your view on this, Ken? You brought up these examples for a reason. Do you feel they invalidate K's teachings on fear? Were they momentary lapses by K? Or did he not always live the teachings, which implies hypocrisy at least some of the time, doesn't it?

Sorry to butt in here as you asked the questions of Ken, but I have a view on this issue. It may be totally off the wall, but here it is fwiw. There's fear where there is attachment, and if K had any attachment at all, it was to the teachings. I suspect he put up with the Rajagopals in order to protect the teachings. I mean, if someone is yelling at you over the phone, you can simply hang up, no? K may have been afraid to give R. control of the teachings in any way. So he put up with the verbal assaults.

Let it Be

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Fri, 07 Jul 2017 #34
Thumb_stringio richard head United States 332 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

idiot ? wrote:
So at any given time, love or fear may be operational.

Yet we (the mind) consistently choose the sensation of thought based response (fear/anger-pleasure-pain). This preference for thought/effort leaves no space for this other thing you speak of.

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Wed, 12 Jul 2017 #35
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 307 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
There's fear where there is attachment, and if K had any attachment at all, it was to the teachings. I suspect he put up with the Rajagopals in order to protect the teachings.

Obviously K, who was "free of conflict," had tremendous conflict with Rajagopal. There were law suits, there exist letters that K dictated where he complained at length about Rajagopal (and these are probably locked up in the library in Ojai or otherwise inaccessible but some of these have been leaked), and so on.

Control of the teachings, the finances, whether K's affair with Rosalind would come out, and so on were likely all issues and threats to K. So he probably had good reasons to fear that things could blow up and they kind of did. Then he rebuilt with a new entourage of supporters and many of his old supporters.

A lot of K's life was very sheltered. He was taken care of and had little to fear. But conflict did arise and, extremely sensitive as he was, in all likelihood he felt it.

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Wed, 12 Jul 2017 #36
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3098 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
A lot of K's life was very sheltered. He was taken care of and had little to fear. But conflict did arise and, extremely sensitive as he was, in all likelihood he felt it.

I think he told M.Z. that if he wasn't taken care of by the K foundation or trust he would have been a poor beggar in India. Fortunately he wasn't left penniless in the US where you can't survive as a beggar...at least in the winter in the north east or northern rockies. He WAS sheltered and had MZ and other rich friends to make sure he had enough to eat and a safe comfortable place to sleep at night. What would his life have been like without that? We'll never know. But he sure had amazing insight into the human mind and spent his life sharing his insights. It's possible that without the protection of his rich friends all the talks wouldn't have happened. I for one, am ver glad that he was provided for and had the opportunity to share his amazing insights. I can't see him surviving the kind of jobs and life situations most lower class folks live with in my part of the globe. Life here is so ugly and violent I don't think he would have survived. But no one really should have to live in such a violent and mad society as we've created in the US. Not that it's much better elsewhere.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 12 Jul 2017.

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Wed, 12 Jul 2017 #37
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3098 posts in this forum Offline

Ken,

:) But he'd have been out of a job from mid October until May....if he lived here in NJ.

Let it Be

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Mon, 17 Jul 2017 #38
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 642 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K, however, claimed to be completely free of fear. "It's finished!" In other words, he claimed to be at a point of no return where fear was permanently gone. But your examples call into question if that was really so.

Hi idiot?. Obviously I don't know if K was completely free of fear. It seems, as far as I can see, that his mind was largely free of thought and this meant that his powers of observation were extraordinary. He could see fear, anger etc. as soon as they arose and in this seeing there was understanding and instant action. I think that is something that is there for us all, a challenge in our day to day lives. Fear and anger are probably felt universally by all human beings and Krishnamurti shone much needed light on understanding these things both inwardly and outwardly.

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Tue, 10 Oct 2017 #39
Thumb_k2 Ken D United States 60 posts in this forum Offline

"Around 3 p.m., Krishnaji, Asit, Nandi, and I were in Pupul’s sitting room, and Krishnaji said quietly, “I don’t know if you believe in ghosts, but I’ve been seeing Mrs. Gandhi standing there.” He indicated a spot about two feet from where I was sitting at the right end of the sofa. He said that she stood there, looking at him, for more than a minute, and then disappeared. As the afternoon continued with no word from Pupul, Asit, Nandini, and Rajiv Sethi went to the PM’s house to look for her. Pupul had gone to the hospital and they waited at the house. Around 6 p.m., the news of the Prime Minister’s death was announced."

From Mary Zimbalist's Memoir

"What emptiness do you gaze upon! Do you not feel a thrill passing through the air with the notes of the far-away song floating from the other shore?" Rabindranath Tagore

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Fri, 16 Mar 2018 #40
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

English is not my mother tongue

Ken D wrote:

idiot ? wrote:

Sure. He was obviously afraid and not free of fear.

Then what is the point of understanding the nature of fear while still being controlled by it? And make no mistake, to Krishnamurti fear in so many ways is something very dangerous and detrimental to healthy living. After all, it is the fear itself which is needlessly wrecking the mind. So what difference does it make to listen to Krishnamurti's views on the subject? It's like observing all the pipes under the kitchen sink but not knowing how to fix the faucet when it starts leaking. Listening to Krishnamurti's observations on fear is no different than never having heard them.

Hello to everyone, ken, idiot, tom etc..

talking about the mental here...
thought, the thinker, the analytical process , etc many words for one program-capacity in fact, thought desperately seeks a way out of anything it rejects without any understanding of the problem, which of course is absurd!! a way out which usually is simply the opposite of what it rejects, it can be about something very trivial and totally superficial too of course..I seek for what I call happiness means : I am totally unhappy.

Unhappiness is the fact, happiness is the illusion..what is what should be..

Thought for me will always produce such problems so say my own experiments like fear, sorrow, suffering, anxiety, despair, madness, insanity, dementia, ruthlessness, wars, crimes, poverty, lies, tortures, destruction, science etc; one needs a book to describe all that, especially when it is working alone as the dictator of one's brain as it permanently attempts to do in the outer world as well...

If by reading k ones hope is to become absolutely untouched by all that, a super hero of the mind, super K, then one may just be living in an another illusion made up by thought as another of its little attempts to get rid of a problem without going into it at all....

Thought as a machine, for me will always produce some side effects..and alas or not some are pretty nasty aren't they ?? They just make one's life an everyday painful experience with very little blue sky, this is usually negated of course , some side effects could make us wipe out mankind from earth...as k mentioned it somewhere and I see it that way as well, we are living a suicidal life..suicide like everyone knows of course is the impossible attempt to run away from mental pain..it never works..so the increasing pain and suffering..but what is the ultimate origin of pain ??

Could it be in the functioning itself of thought as a program ???

If so we are prisoner of that program's side effects with no way out ?

To know such thing one must know about this program and more.

K for me just spoke his life,naturally sharing what took place for him...what else could one do ? We are meant to be fully grown adults not totally lost children! Are not we fully grown adults ,mentally speaking ...

some share their insanity, they called themselves the elites and we work for them making them very powerfully dangerous and some share their sanity..sharing is natural..oneness is ..

K's words have brought what they have brought which of course I cannot and do not want to measure that would be so stupid and useless; for me and possibly some if not many one man cannot change billions at all,one cannot change even another one and this appears all over the place in what he wrote yet we can see the exact opposite as well, and contradictions seem to appear often in ks words, when i started reading k I was 17 years old back to 1967 as I had and have still a very good memory I was struck by many apparent contradictions... but in fact experiences helping, this is usually not so..those subjects are quite subtle and usually words are more for the world of practicality than for the world of what is not of that.

He could not change even one because it is a lonely path to be walked when one is eventually for once living what is behind suffering..which for me is a clear process producing some very specific effects of some sort to anyone of us walking that "door", at least "a minima" it participates to the turning on of our other capacities, long time asleep in us, since millennium, but it is impossible to be more define as our official history is mostly pure lies and crap but everyone knows that of course..,

Suffering or rather what really is behind that word is a symptom of wrongness of course and a catalyst repeatedly says what I, like some, live..And yes it is a process and it has a very define reason to be and a very specific effect on the brain-mind..For sure we will not know about that by running away from it when it is our common lifetime mistake..hoping for a relief or for some goodness or advantage to take place from it, is running away as well..

Anyway one usually does not speak about ones life as it is but about ones hopes and desires..The division is already there..well not surprising as this is precisely how thought must function in order to analyse ..division is the field of thought, the observer and the observed of course and this is vital in practical fields or even to be able for the body to walk within the environment, me versus the environment..the "I" is already there before I even am aware that I think...but as we have only that program left at work, division is our life...

If I say that it is because I know about some other programs like some do know ...and those programs or capacities are not analytical, so create no division at all..are not comparing, do not calculate, do not create hierarchies etc and contain a sort of transmitter receiver and gosh know what else is there...Just by describing this we see that those other capacities contain what we are missing in our sort of no life at all. And may be found there as it wishes , some absolute contentment , not the one of the winner of course, they have absolutely nothing at all in common...

Then out of division and out of a too limited tool called thought, too limited to apprehend life, we have put forth individuality where what absolutely prevails is voluntary cooperation , I mean for collective practical survival..this is a crime against nature and we sure pay the price for it..

and we have put some sort of collective organisation ( organised perverted religions and all usual such bullshit etc ) where individuality must absolutely be first...

we were meant to "love"( be one with = united etc) one self( not as a separate "me" so but as "something " different) so life, so others, so nature etc and as sch would be capable to solve problems which will always rise as they come....

and we were meant to use tools, helping so altogether to properly survive..we basically have turned that into we love tools and use others (thanks to dhirendra singh for that one ;-))...this is what we are up too with false pride..and then one wonders what is wrong, oh my god what a stupid species we are!!

But this is still OK don't panic, don't panic, thought must fail is what is clear for me and some...and first of all I am concerned with my problems so my suffering..like we all should do...then we share what took place or did not take place..

and whether k had a special comb over or did this or that may be very interesting of course , but this will lead nowhere but to more problems for me , if i am in fact searching for a way out of MY misery without living the problems as it is as this is our main activity...attempting to replace facts with ones own desires, of course this is another way to put in words, what is and what should be...

but all this is really so complex that thinking ,talking personally only here now, that thinking-analyzing my mental problems has not brought anything good in my life but the opposite...

what is left then...? thought...and suffering + apparent meaningless life..wait k mentioned that too did he not ..yes , but nothing prevents anyone to go that path as well..

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 16 Mar 2018.

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Fri, 16 Mar 2018 #41
Thumb_2018-01-20-120616 Daniel Paul. Ireland 89 posts in this forum Offline

And look what today's quote brought us for Christmas..

Questioner: What guarantee have I that the new faculty of which you speak will come into being?

Krishnamurti: I am afraid none what ever! This is not an investment, surely. If you are seeking surety then you will meet death but if you are uncertain, therefore adventuring, seeking, the real will be discovered. We want to be guaranteed, we want to be sure of the result before we even try for we are lazy and thoughtless and do not wish to set out on the long journey of self-discovery. We do not apply ourselves; we want enlightenment to be given to us in exchange for our effort which indicates possessive security. In security there is no discovery of the real; this search for security is self-protectiveness and in the self there is ignorance and sorrow. To understand, to discover the real, there must be the abandonment of the self; there must be negative comprehension for that which lies beyond all the cunning schemes of the self. What is discovered in the search of self-knowledge is true and it is this truth that is liberating and creative - not my guarantee that you will be liberated which would be utter folly. We are in conflict, in confusion, in sorrow and it is this suffering, not any promise of reward, that must be the compelling force to seek, to search out and to discover the real. This search must be made by each one of us and self-knowledge is to be cultivated through constant self-awareness; right thinking comes with self-knowledge which alone brings peace and understanding. The end is made distant through greed.

Dan ...........

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