Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Krishnamurti Miscellanea For The Curious


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Thu, 18 May 2017 #1
Thumb_untitled5 Ken D United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti Reviews "Krishnamurti's Notebook"

"Krishnamurti's Notebook appears to me to go beyond the Upanishads and Vedanta. When he talks about knowledge and the ending of it, it is in essence Vedanta, which literally means the ending of knowledge. But the Vedantists and their followers in different part of the world are really maintaining the structure of knowledge, perhaps thinking knowledge is salvation, as most scientists do.
Tradition has such a strong grip on the mind that few seem to escape its tentacles and I think this is where Krishnamurti begins. He constantly asserts that freedom is the first and last step. The traditionalists maintain that a highly disciplined mind is necessary for freedom; be a slave first and afterwards you will be free. To Krishnamurti what seems the most important thing, and he had repeated this in all his talks and dialogues, is that there must be freedom to observe, not some ideological freedom but freedom from the very knowledge and experience which has been acquired yesterday. This brings about a tremendous problem. If there is no knowledge of many yesterdays, then what is it that is capable of observing? If knowledge is not the root of observation, what have you with which to observe? Can the many yesterdays be totally forgotten, which is the essence of freedom? He maintains that it can. This is possible only when the past ends in the present, meeting it fully, head on. The past, as he asserts, is the ego, the structure of the "me" which prevents total observation.
An ordinary person reading this book will inevitably cry out, saying, what are you talking about? To him Krishnamurti explains very carefully in manifold ways the necessary memory and the psychological memory. Knowledge is necessary to function in any field of our daily life but psychological memory of our hurts, anxiety, pain and sorrow is the factor of division and hence there is a conflict between the essential knowledge which is required to drive a car and the experience of knowledge which is the whole movement of the psyche. He points out this fact in relationship, in our fragmented ways of life. I have read this book very carefully. I am familiar with the Upanishads and have delved deeply into the teachings of the Buddha. I am fairly familiar with the psychological studies of modern times. As far as I have come in my studies I have not found the phrase "the observer is the observed"; with its full meaning. Perhaps some ancient thinker may have said it, but one of the most important things that Krishnamurti has found is this great truth which, when it actually takes place, as it has occasionally happened to me personally, literally banishes the movement of time. Let me add here that I am not a follower, nor do I accept Krishnamurti as my guru. To him the idea of becoming a guru is an abomination. With critical examination I find this book totally absorbing because he annihilates everything thought has put together. It is a shocking thing when on realizes this. It is a real physical shock.
Can a human being live in this state of absolute nothingness except for his daily bread and work..in the total emptiness of consciousness as we know it? As Krishnamurti points out over and over again, consciousness is the movement of all thought. Thought is matter, measurable, and thought is time, which implies that psychologically there is no tomorrow. That means no hope. This is a devastating psychological fact and our everyday mind is not only shocked by this statement but probably will refuse to examine it closely. It is death now. From this death arises a totally different quality of energy, of a different dimension, inexhaustible and without an end. He says this is the ultimate benediction...
I can feel through all the pages of this book a sense of extraordinary love which the Tibetans might call the love or the compassion of the Bodhisattva, but when you give it a name and an ideological symbol you will lose the perfume. It has strangely affected my life...
It is curious also how he deals with meditation. Meditation, according to him, can never be a conscious thing, and one can see the reason for this. If one meditates purposefully with a deliberate intention, consciousness then continues with all its content." Krishnamurti

From Krishnamurti: The Years of Fulfilment by Mary Lutyens

This post was last updated by Ken D Sun, 21 May 2017.

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Fri, 19 May 2017 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

idiot's review of idiot's posts in kinfonet:

idiot ? is an unfortunate name, although the question mark placed after the name gives one hope. idiot ? doesn't seem idiotic at all. In fact, keen insight into K teachings seems to proceed from every idiot post. idiot ? departs from where others begin, taking basic K teaching for granted, and explores nooks and crannies in the teachings. To some this neglects the essential K message but if you read closely, (s)he typically expresses core teaching briefly before going further in the direction of idiotic concern. idiot ?, having spent decades soaking in K teaching, now apparently is more interested in nuance, in exploration of subtle detail.

A year or so ago, (s)he seemed to engage in humorous posts, with references such as "the whirled teacher." While mildly amusing, these sorts of posts seem largely to have been left behind and more serious posts have ensued. However, you never know when a satirical post might emerge once again. (Like in what is.)

idiot ? writes with lucidity and insight. (S)He never engages in belittling of other kinfonet posters or disparagement of others. On the contrary, (s)he is interested in friendly, joint exploration and welcomes multiple viewpoints. (S)He is a treasure among kinfonet posters and I look forward to more brilliant, idiotic commentary.

The audacity and irony of reviewing yourself in the third person is not lost on idiot ?

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Fri, 19 May 2017 #3
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

I have to say, the thing that jumps out at me in K's review of his own book is how, as a reviewer, he is fine expressing his familiarity with Vedanta and Buddhism. At other times when he spoke, K claimed that he had not read ANY spiritual books.

Now which do you think is true? Do you really think someone raised by Theosophists to be the world teacher would have had NO exposure to Hindu and Buddhist literature/ideas that were esteemed by the Theosophists?

Of course, a big part of K teaching is freedom from the known. This means, among other things, setting aside gurus, spiritual traditions, organized religions, and yes, spiritual books. It means going into questions for yourself and exploring anew, with freedom from past influence.

But it is a fact, (is it not?), whether one has or has not read a spiritual book. Here the reviewer K has knowledge of Vedanta and Buddhism. The teacher K is free of all knowledge and has never read a spiritual book.

For you, I'm sure there is no contradiction. For me, my baloney detection Geiger counter is ticking loud and strong.

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Fri, 19 May 2017 #4
Thumb_untitled5 Ken D United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But it is a fact, (is it not?), whether one has or has not read a spiritual book. Here the reviewer K has knowledge of Vedanta and Buddhism. The teacher K is free of all knowledge and has never read a spiritual book.

Well, maybe he found out about it through conversations he had with others. Here is a passage from The Only Revolution....

"A man came to see us that afternoon. He said he was a believer in Vedanta. He spoke English very well for he had been educated in one of the universities and had a bright, sharp intellect. He was a lawyer, earning a great deal of money, and his keen eyes looked at you speculatively, weighing, and somewhat anxious. He appeared to have read a great deal, including something of western theology. He was a middle-aged man, rather thin and tall, with the dignity of a lawyer who had won many cases. He said: "I have heard you talk and what you are saying is pure Vedanta, brought up to date but of the ancient tradition."

We asked him what he meant by Vedanta. He replied: "Sir, we postulate that there is only Brahman who creates the world and the illusion of it, and the Atman - which is in every human being - is of that Brahman. Man has to awaken from this everyday consciousness of plurality and the manifest world, much as he would awaken from a dream. Just as this dreamer creates the totality of his dream so the individual consciousness creates the totality of the manifest world and other people. You, sir, don't say all this but surely you mean all this for you have been born and bred in this country and, though you have been abroad most of your life, you are part of this ancient tradition. India has produced you, whether you like it or not; you are the product of India and you have an Indian mind. Your gestures, your statue-like stillness when you talk, and your very looks are part of this ancient heritage. Your teaching is surely the continuation of what our ancients have taught since time immemorial."

Let us brush aside whether the speaker is an Indian brought up in this tradition, conditioned in this culture, and whether he is the summation of this ancient teaching. First of all he is not an Indian, that is to say, he does not belong to this nation or to the community of Brahmins, though he was born in it. He denies the very tradition with which you invest him. He denies that his teaching is the continuity of the ancient teachings. He has not read any of the sacred books of India or of the West because they are unnecessary for a man who is aware of what is going on in the world - of the behaviour of human beings with their endless theories, with the accepted propaganda of two thousand or five thousand years which has become the tradition, the truth, the revelation."

This post was last updated by Ken D Fri, 19 May 2017.

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Sat, 20 May 2017 #5
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, Ken, your two lengthy K quotes make my point quite well. K the reviewer knows about Vedanta and states that it means the ending of knowledge. He also understands something of Buddhism. In your second quote above, K the teacher denies completely the Indian religious traditions. He confirms what I said: he claims not to have read any spiritual books.

Now it could be argued that as the reviewer, K is playing a role of someone who has read Krishnamurti's Notebook (rather than the person who wrote it). This reviewer K is feigning compares K teaching to Vedanta and Buddhism and concludes there really isn't substantial similarity. K is playing a reviewer role.

But it also begs the question, in his normal capacity as "the speaker," as someone conveying the teachings and urging them to be explored by each listener, was he also playing a role? Was he really so completely free of spiritual traditions that he knew nothing of them, which seems to be the point of claiming never to have read spiritual books? The point is that the traditions are unnecessary burdens, that only freely investigating for yourself will unveil truth. But clearly he did know something of Eastern religious traditions. He was raised and educated by Theosophists.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 20 May 2017.

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Sat, 20 May 2017 #6
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 77 posts in this forum Offline

Re: Posts #1 to #5

Reducing K's works to a literary body and positing ourselves as a critic, we maybe right in pointing out that there indeed is a contradiction and as a matter of fact he did read other books.But this criticism involves overemphasizing the conceptual elements and then waging war on words. Note that same applies to K when he did attempt to reduce Vedanta and Upanishads (unknowingly wearing the garb of a literary critic) by overemphasizing it conceptually and reducing it to an axiom of 'ending of knowledge', but importantly he didn't pursue the criticism any further. All in all everything has cancelled out and the discussion could be considered closed, imo.

contraria sunt complementa

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Sun, 21 May 2017 #7
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 523 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Ken

That was a remarkable extract, review of K on K himself . It immediately struck a chord as that was the understanding one arrived at after absorbing , internalizing the teaching for a good period of time / years .. which started when one is in sort of prime of ones life . More so because as I haven't read Mary Leuteyn's book ' The years of fulfillment ' , ( may be a compilation of K 's own statements , extracts spoken by him ) and that's why I was surprised to find similar views expressed by K .

If one goes by the written words of K , one can never be able to grasp the inner, deeper, coherent meaning / understanding k intending to point out . The teaching works only when one is completely , integrally , passionately imbibing the teaching in ones day to day activities . Because that is the arena / laboratory where one starts finding ... exploring the answers , the strong message one receives after crossing the phase of the initial stage of K terminology ... and the protagonist , the million dollar character of all this tremendously unfolding saga is none other than ' oneself '

There can be help from all sides , the ancient texts like the Upanishads, the Vedas and the essence of both the ancient texts is the ' Bhagavadgitha ' which I happened to read prior to coming across K books . Born in Hindu family I got familiar with the basic at the same time the fundamental tenets of the ancient texts ... The doctrine of Karma , deep belief in destiny and yes there is love for nature and reverence for the creator . If one reads K really searching, one comes across his respect for the ancient texts and of his extreme love of the ' beloved ' and his feeling so much at home in ' nature ' .

From the main post : " I can feel through all the pages of this book a sense of extraordinary love which the Tibetans might call the LOVE OR THE COMPASSION of the Bodhisattva, but when you give it a name and an ideological symbol you will lose the PERFUME . It has strangely affected my life...

It is curious also how he deals with meditation. MEDITATION according to him, can never be a conscious thing, and one can see the reason for this. If one meditates purposefully with a deliberate intention, consciousness then continues with all its content." Krishnamurti

' Love and compassion ' is the GROUND on which the inquiry is set in . Life and being in itself is in meditation

This post was last updated by pavani rao Sun, 21 May 2017.

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Mon, 22 May 2017 #8
Thumb_untitled5 Ken D United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

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Mon, 22 May 2017 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Ken,

Your latest post is a description by K of what he eventually called "the process." I know in the past you have stated that you believe that K underwent rising of kundalini.

Personally I wonder if he had some kind of medical condition that explained his sensations.

Here's a story about my mother: She was driving home on the highway from my sister's house. She blacked out and awoke in the gutter lane driving slowly. She was convinced that she had had a mystical experience!

I asked her if there had been any recent change in the medications she was taking. She replied, "Why yes! I am taking a new blood pressure medication." I had her check the dosage and the side effects of the new medication. Turns out she was taking twice the dosage she was supposed to and a major side effect could be loss of consciousness. There was a specific warning not to operate machinery, etc.

She hadn't had a mystical experience at all. She had taken too much of her blood pressure drug and blacked out. Thank god she wasn't killed!

We will never know if a medical condition was behind "the process." K-interested people will continue to have various ideas about what "the process" was and what it meant. You can see K's own interpretation metamorphosing. Here, in your post above from 1924, he mentions "Lord and Master." Later, he describes physical sensations and calls it "the process" but no longer mentions "Lord" or "Master."

It is true that C.W. Leadbeater used kundalini yoga techniques and likely passed on this training to K.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 22 May 2017.

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Tue, 23 May 2017 #10
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 12 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
We will never know if a medical condition was behind "the process."

We will never know if mental illness was behind K's "the process". Or even fraud. Who knows? But we do know "it is the frustrated, shallow, narrow mind, the conditioned mind that seeks the more." (knowledgeinformationauthority).

This post was last updated by richard head 1 day ago.

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Tue, 23 May 2017 #11
Thumb_untitled5 Ken D United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti on Male and Female Elements

"Krishnamurti: I think one can observe this in oneself. I have often observed that in each one of us there are the male and female elements. Either they are in perfect balance or in a state of imbalance. When there is this complete balance between the male and the female, then the physical organism never really falls ill; there may be superficial illness but deep within there is no disease which destroys the organism. This is probably what the ancients must have sought - identifying it with mercury and mica, the male and the female and through meditation, study, and perhaps through some form of medicine tried to bring about this perfect harmony. One can see very clearly in oneself the operation of the male and female going on. When one or the other gets exaggerated, the imbalance creates disease; not superficial ailments but disease at the depths. I have noticed personally within myself under different situations and climates, with different people who are aggressive, violent, the female takes over and becomes more prominent. This prominence, the other uses to assert himself. But when there is too much femininity around one, the male does not become aggressive but withdraws without any resistance.

S: What are the male and female elements?

Krishnamurti: The male is generally aggressive, violent, dominating and the female is the quiet, which is taken for submissiveness and then exploited by man. But submissiveness which is taken to be the quality of the female, is really gentleness which gradually conquers the other.

When the female and the male are in complete harmony, the quality of both changes. It is no longer male or female. It is something totally different, in relation to what is considered as male and female. The male and the female as the positive and negative because of their very nature are dualistic, whereas the complete balance, a harmony of the two has a different quality. May I say something? It is like the quality of the earth in which everything lives but is not of it. I have noticed this operating very often. When the whole mind withdraws from the physical and the environment, it is as though it is very far away; far away not in space and time, but a state which nothing can touch. This state is not an abstraction nor a withdrawal but an inward, absolute, non-being. When this perfect harmony takes place, because there is no conflict, it has its own vitality. It does not destroy the other. So conflict is not only in the outer but also in the inner and when this conflict completely comes to an end, there is a mutation which is not touched by time."
Krishnamurti 12-14-1970

This post was last updated by Ken D Tue, 23 May 2017.

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Tue, 23 May 2017 #12
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:

Krishnamurti on Male and Female Elements

Now that is a very unusual quote. K, the Taoist! Yin and Yang! Amazing.

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Sat, 27 May 2017 #13
Thumb_untitled5 Ken D United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

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2 days ago #14
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 1174 posts in this forum Offline

Ken's depiction of the K. story when K. is riding in India in the passenger seat and the three passengers in the back seat are having an intense conversation about 'consciousness'...so intense that when the driver ran over a goat they never even noticed! (Looks like the goat got away OK in the above.)

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott 2 days ago.

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2 days ago #15
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2980 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
three passengers in the back seat are having an intense conversation about 'consciousness'

I think they were discussing what it means to be aware. And the lack of awareness of the one driving was lethal for the poor goat.

Let it Be

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2 days ago #16
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti, Flight of the Eagle, page 41:
I remember once travelling in a car, in India, with a group of people. I was sitting in front with the driver, there were three behind who were talking about awareness, wanting to discuss with me what awareness is. The car was going very fast. A goat was in the road and the driver did not pay much attention and ran over the poor animal. The gentlemen behind were discussing what is awareness; they never knew what had happened! You laugh; but that is what we are all doing, we are intellectually concerned with the idea of awareness, the verbal, dialectical investigation of opinion, yet not actually aware of what is taking place.

I haven't been able to find the story where K looks over and is horrified to see that the car is being driven by Alfred E. Newman.

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1 day ago #17
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 542 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
(Looks like the goat got away OK in the above.)

I think Ken D may have been trying to avoid the driver becoming the scapegoat here :)

While some may see the above sentence as an example of creative thought, others will no doubt see it as a conditioned response from thought and the known. Any attempt at humour on this forum may get your goat.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen 1 day ago.

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1 day ago #18
Thumb_untitled5 Ken D United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

No, not Alfred E. Neuman...that's my alter ego Mortimer Snerd, a puppet of rare wisdom....

This post was last updated by Ken D 1 day ago.

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1 day ago #19
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

Ken, maybe Mortimer could convince you not to delete your own posts. Just because we don't comment doesn't mean they aren't interesting.

I want the blinking Inspector Clouseau back. He evidently was realizing that the observer is the observed, the investigator is the investigated.

This post was last updated by idiot ? 1 day ago.

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1 day ago #20
Thumb_untitled5 Ken D United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

This post was last updated by Ken D 1 day ago.

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1 day ago #21
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

With regard to Mortimer Snerd, there's seems to have been a mutation...

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1 day ago #22
Thumb_untitled5 Ken D United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

Today's Trivia Note:
The recently convened G7 summit was held in the village of Taormina on the island of Sicily.

Krishnamurti was sent to Taormina in 1912 to undergo initiation rituals at the behest of the Theosophical Society. This visit is impressively recounted in the book "The Taormina Seclusion: 1912" by Joseph Ross (forward by Radha Burnier) 2003.

This post was last updated by Ken D 1 day ago.

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24 hours ago #23
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
"The Taormina Seclusion: 1912" by Joseph Ross (forward by Radha Burnier) 2003.

Looks like an interesting book. But it's currently selling for more than $90 on amazon.

Zoiks! I mean, Gorsh!

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24 hours ago #24
Thumb_untitled5 Ken D United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

Ross's books on the early history of the Theosophical Society and Krishnamurti (from 1927-1940) are exceptional.

The Taormina Seclusion:1912....

https://www.krishnamurtibookstore.com/product-p...

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22 hours ago #25
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 163 posts in this forum Offline

Much better price at the k bookstore you cited. Google also told me about free pdf downloads but they looked scary and nefarious.

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