Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Krishnamurti Miscellanea For The Curious


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Thu, 18 May 2017 #1
Thumb_77 Ken D United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti Reviews "Krishnamurti's Notebook"

"Krishnamurti's Notebook appears to me to go beyond the Upanishads and Vedanta. When he talks about knowledge and the ending of it, it is in essence Vedanta, which literally means the ending of knowledge. But the Vedantists and their followers in different part of the world are really maintaining the structure of knowledge, perhaps thinking knowledge is salvation, as most scientists do.
Tradition has such a strong grip on the mind that few seem to escape its tentacles and I think this is where Krishnamurti begins. He constantly asserts that freedom is the first and last step. The traditionalists maintain that a highly disciplined mind is necessary for freedom; be a slave first and afterwards you will be free. To Krishnamurti what seems the most important thing, and he had repeated this in all his talks and dialogues, is that there must be freedom to observe, not some ideological freedom but freedom from the very knowledge and experience which has been acquired yesterday. This brings about a tremendous problem. If there is no knowledge of many yesterdays, then what is it that is capable of observing? If knowledge is not the root of observation, what have you with which to observe? Can the many yesterdays be totally forgotten, which is the essence of freedom? He maintains that it can. This is possible only when the past ends in the present, meeting it fully, head on. The past, as he asserts, is the ego, the structure of the "me" which prevents total observation.
An ordinary person reading this book will inevitably cry out, saying, what are you talking about? To him Krishnamurti explains very carefully in manifold ways the necessary memory and the psychological memory. Knowledge is necessary to function in any field of our daily life but psychological memory of our hurts, anxiety, pain and sorrow is the factor of division and hence there is a conflict between the essential knowledge which is required to drive a car and the experience of knowledge which is the whole movement of the psyche. He points out this fact in relationship, in our fragmented ways of life. I have read this book very carefully. I am familiar with the Upanishads and have delved deeply into the teachings of the Buddha. I am fairly familiar with the psychological studies of modern times. As far as I have come in my studies I have not found the phrase "the observer is the observed"; with its full meaning. Perhaps some ancient thinker may have said it, but one of the most important things that Krishnamurti has found is this great truth which, when it actually takes place, as it has occasionally happened to me personally, literally banishes the movement of time. Let me add here that I am not a follower, nor do I accept Krishnamurti as my guru. To him the idea of becoming a guru is an abomination. With critical examination I find this book totally absorbing because he annihilates everything thought has put together. It is a shocking thing when on realizes this. It is a real physical shock.
Can a human being live in this state of absolute nothingness except for his daily bread and work..in the total emptiness of consciousness as we know it? As Krishnamurti points out over and over again, consciousness is the movement of all thought. Thought is matter, measurable, and thought is time, which implies that psychologically there is no tomorrow. That means no hope. This is a devastating psychological fact and our everyday mind is not only shocked by this statement but probably will refuse to examine it closely. It is death now. From this death arises a totally different quality of energy, of a different dimension, inexhaustible and without an end. He says this is the ultimate benediction...
I can feel through all the pages of this book a sense of extraordinary love which the Tibetans might call the love or the compassion of the Bodhisattva, but when you give it a name and an ideological symbol you will lose the perfume. It has strangely affected my life...
It is curious also how he deals with meditation. Meditation, according to him, can never be a conscious thing, and one can see the reason for this. If one meditates purposefully with a deliberate intention, consciousness then continues with all its content." Krishnamurti

From Krishnamurti: The Years of Fulfilment by Mary Lutyens

This post was last updated by Ken D Sun, 21 May 2017.

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Fri, 19 May 2017 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

idiot's review of idiot's posts in kinfonet:

idiot ? is an unfortunate name, although the question mark placed after the name gives one hope. idiot ? doesn't seem idiotic at all. In fact, keen insight into K teachings seems to proceed from every idiot post. idiot ? departs from where others begin, taking basic K teaching for granted, and explores nooks and crannies in the teachings. To some this neglects the essential K message but if you read closely, (s)he typically expresses core teaching briefly before going further in the direction of idiotic concern. idiot ?, having spent decades soaking in K teaching, now apparently is more interested in nuance, in exploration of subtle detail.

A year or so ago, (s)he seemed to engage in humorous posts, with references such as "the whirled teacher." While mildly amusing, these sorts of posts seem largely to have been left behind and more serious posts have ensued. However, you never know when a satirical post might emerge once again. (Like in what is.)

idiot ? writes with lucidity and insight. (S)He never engages in belittling of other kinfonet posters or disparagement of others. On the contrary, (s)he is interested in friendly, joint exploration and welcomes multiple viewpoints. (S)He is a treasure among kinfonet posters and I look forward to more brilliant, idiotic commentary.

The audacity and irony of reviewing yourself in the third person is not lost on idiot ?

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Fri, 19 May 2017 #3
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

I have to say, the thing that jumps out at me in K's review of his own book is how, as a reviewer, he is fine expressing his familiarity with Vedanta and Buddhism. At other times when he spoke, K claimed that he had not read ANY spiritual books.

Now which do you think is true? Do you really think someone raised by Theosophists to be the world teacher would have had NO exposure to Hindu and Buddhist literature/ideas that were esteemed by the Theosophists?

Of course, a big part of K teaching is freedom from the known. This means, among other things, setting aside gurus, spiritual traditions, organized religions, and yes, spiritual books. It means going into questions for yourself and exploring anew, with freedom from past influence.

But it is a fact, (is it not?), whether one has or has not read a spiritual book. Here the reviewer K has knowledge of Vedanta and Buddhism. The teacher K is free of all knowledge and has never read a spiritual book.

For you, I'm sure there is no contradiction. For me, my baloney detection Geiger counter is ticking loud and strong.

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Sat, 20 May 2017 #4
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, Ken, your two lengthy K quotes make my point quite well. K the reviewer knows about Vedanta and states that it means the ending of knowledge. He also understands something of Buddhism. In your second quote above, K the teacher denies completely the Indian religious traditions. He confirms what I said: he claims not to have read any spiritual books.

Now it could be argued that as the reviewer, K is playing a role of someone who has read Krishnamurti's Notebook (rather than the person who wrote it). This reviewer K is feigning compares K teaching to Vedanta and Buddhism and concludes there really isn't substantial similarity. K is playing a reviewer role.

But it also begs the question, in his normal capacity as "the speaker," as someone conveying the teachings and urging them to be explored by each listener, was he also playing a role? Was he really so completely free of spiritual traditions that he knew nothing of them, which seems to be the point of claiming never to have read spiritual books? The point is that the traditions are unnecessary burdens, that only freely investigating for yourself will unveil truth. But clearly he did know something of Eastern religious traditions. He was raised and educated by Theosophists.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 20 May 2017.

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Sat, 20 May 2017 #5
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 77 posts in this forum Offline

Re: Posts #1 to #5

Reducing K's works to a literary body and positing ourselves as a critic, we maybe right in pointing out that there indeed is a contradiction and as a matter of fact he did read other books.But this criticism involves overemphasizing the conceptual elements and then waging war on words. Note that same applies to K when he did attempt to reduce Vedanta and Upanishads (unknowingly wearing the garb of a literary critic) by overemphasizing it conceptually and reducing it to an axiom of 'ending of knowledge', but importantly he didn't pursue the criticism any further. All in all everything has cancelled out and the discussion could be considered closed, imo.

contraria sunt complementa

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Sun, 21 May 2017 #6
Thumb_beautiful-nature-wallpaper pavani rao India 528 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Ken

That was a remarkable extract, review of K on K himself . It immediately struck a chord as that was the understanding one arrived at after absorbing , internalizing the teaching for a good period of time / years .. which started when one is in sort of prime of ones life . More so because as I haven't read Mary Leuteyn's book ' The years of fulfillment ' , ( may be a compilation of K 's own statements , extracts spoken by him ) and that's why I was surprised to find similar views expressed by K .

If one goes by the written words of K , one can never be able to grasp the inner, deeper, coherent meaning / understanding k intending to point out . The teaching works only when one is completely , integrally , passionately imbibing the teaching in ones day to day activities . Because that is the arena / laboratory where one starts finding ... exploring the answers , the strong message one receives after crossing the phase of the initial stage of K terminology ... and the protagonist , the million dollar character of all this tremendously unfolding saga is none other than ' oneself '

There can be help from all sides , the ancient texts like the Upanishads, the Vedas and the essence of both the ancient texts is the ' Bhagavadgitha ' which I happened to read prior to coming across K books . Born in Hindu family I got familiar with the basic at the same time the fundamental tenets of the ancient texts ... The doctrine of Karma , deep belief in destiny and yes there is love for nature and reverence for the creator . If one reads K really searching, one comes across his respect for the ancient texts and of his extreme love of the ' beloved ' and his feeling so much at home in ' nature ' .

From the main post : " I can feel through all the pages of this book a sense of extraordinary love which the Tibetans might call the LOVE OR THE COMPASSION of the Bodhisattva, but when you give it a name and an ideological symbol you will lose the PERFUME . It has strangely affected my life...

It is curious also how he deals with meditation. MEDITATION according to him, can never be a conscious thing, and one can see the reason for this. If one meditates purposefully with a deliberate intention, consciousness then continues with all its content." Krishnamurti

' Love and compassion ' is the GROUND on which the inquiry is set in . Life and being in itself is in meditation

This post was last updated by pavani rao Sun, 21 May 2017.

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Mon, 22 May 2017 #7
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Ken,

Your latest post is a description by K of what he eventually called "the process." I know in the past you have stated that you believe that K underwent rising of kundalini.

Personally I wonder if he had some kind of medical condition that explained his sensations.

Here's a story about my mother: She was driving home on the highway from my sister's house. She blacked out and awoke in the gutter lane driving slowly. She was convinced that she had had a mystical experience!

I asked her if there had been any recent change in the medications she was taking. She replied, "Why yes! I am taking a new blood pressure medication." I had her check the dosage and the side effects of the new medication. Turns out she was taking twice the dosage she was supposed to and a major side effect could be loss of consciousness. There was a specific warning not to operate machinery, etc.

She hadn't had a mystical experience at all. She had taken too much of her blood pressure drug and blacked out. Thank god she wasn't killed!

We will never know if a medical condition was behind "the process." K-interested people will continue to have various ideas about what "the process" was and what it meant. You can see K's own interpretation metamorphosing. Here, in your post above from 1924, he mentions "Lord and Master." Later, he describes physical sensations and calls it "the process" but no longer mentions "Lord" or "Master."

It is true that C.W. Leadbeater used kundalini yoga techniques and likely passed on this training to K.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 22 May 2017.

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Tue, 23 May 2017 #8
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 167 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
We will never know if a medical condition was behind "the process."

We will never know if mental illness was behind K's "the process". Or even fraud. Who knows? But we do know "it is the frustrated, shallow, narrow mind, the conditioned mind that seeks the more." (knowledgeinformationauthority).

This post was last updated by richard head Sun, 28 May 2017.

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Tue, 23 May 2017 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:

Krishnamurti on Male and Female Elements

Now that is a very unusual quote. K, the Taoist! Yin and Yang! Amazing.

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Sat, 27 May 2017 #10
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 1213 posts in this forum Offline

Ken's depiction of the K. story when K. is riding in India in the passenger seat and the three passengers in the back seat are having an intense conversation about 'consciousness'...so intense that when the driver ran over a goat they never even noticed! (Looks like the goat got away OK in the above.)

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 28 May 2017.

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Sun, 28 May 2017 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3058 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
three passengers in the back seat are having an intense conversation about 'consciousness'

I think they were discussing what it means to be aware. And the lack of awareness of the one driving was lethal for the poor goat.

Let it Be

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Sun, 28 May 2017 #12
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti, Flight of the Eagle, page 41:
I remember once travelling in a car, in India, with a group of people. I was sitting in front with the driver, there were three behind who were talking about awareness, wanting to discuss with me what awareness is. The car was going very fast. A goat was in the road and the driver did not pay much attention and ran over the poor animal. The gentlemen behind were discussing what is awareness; they never knew what had happened! You laugh; but that is what we are all doing, we are intellectually concerned with the idea of awareness, the verbal, dialectical investigation of opinion, yet not actually aware of what is taking place.

I haven't been able to find the story where K looks over and is horrified to see that the car is being driven by Alfred E. Newman.

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Sun, 28 May 2017 #13
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 574 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
(Looks like the goat got away OK in the above.)

I think Ken D may have been trying to avoid the driver becoming the scapegoat here :)

While some may see the above sentence as an example of creative thought, others will no doubt see it as a conditioned response from thought and the known. Any attempt at humour on this forum may get your goat.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Sun, 28 May 2017.

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Sun, 28 May 2017 #14
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Ken, maybe Mortimer could convince you not to delete your own posts. Just because we don't comment doesn't mean they aren't interesting.

I want the blinking Inspector Clouseau back. He evidently was realizing that the observer is the observed, the investigator is the investigated.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 28 May 2017.

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Sun, 28 May 2017 #15
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

With regard to Mortimer Snerd, there's seems to have been a mutation...

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Sun, 28 May 2017 #16
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
"The Taormina Seclusion: 1912" by Joseph Ross (forward by Radha Burnier) 2003.

Looks like an interesting book. But it's currently selling for more than $90 on amazon.

Zoiks! I mean, Gorsh!

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Sun, 28 May 2017 #17
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Much better price at the k bookstore you cited. Google also told me about free pdf downloads but they looked scary and nefarious.

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Tue, 30 May 2017 #18
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Krishanamurti, The Beginnings of Learning, 250:

Thought is mechanical and meditation is not.

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Wed, 31 May 2017 #19
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Krishanamurti, Seventh Talk in the Oak Grove, 1955:

Why is it that we are violent, not only as a race, but also as individuals? I do not know if you have ever asked yourself that question. And what is our approach to violence when we look at it, when we are aware of it, when we think about it? Obviously, most of us say it cannot be helped; we are brought up in this particular society which conditions, encourages us to be violent, and so we slur over the problem very briefly and quickly.

Sometimes K slipped. He occasionally blurted out something inconsistent with his teachings. Was that the case in Ken's quote? Ordinarily K says that violence, conflict at any level is not so different from full on war. Since we spread conflict without awareness, we are responsible for war, large scale and small.

Many of us would argue that we sometimes need to defend the defenseless, that some level of violence is necessary, by police for example, to protect us and keep peace. A young woman harassed on a bus ought to be able to defend herself. Yet have you ever seen K in theoretical discussion allow for such exceptions? Quite the contrary, notwithstanding Ken's rare quote above where K is talking one on one and not before an audience.

Krishanamurti, The First and Last Freedom, On war:

An American lady came to see me a couple of years ago, during the war. She said she had lost her son in Italy and that she had another son aged sixteen whom she wanted to save; so we talked the thing over. I suggested to her that to save her son she had to cease to be an American; she had to cease to be greedy, cease piling up wealth, seeking power, domination, and be morally simple - not merely simple in clothes, in outward things, but simple in her thoughts and feelings, in her relationships. She said, "That is too much.You are asking far too much. I cannot do it, because circumstances are too powerful for me to alter". Therefore she was responsible for the destruction of her son.

Above K claims that a woman's failure to put her life in order makes her responsible for her son's death. The things K exhorts of this woman are completely removed from her son's immediate circumstances. Yet K suggests an almost karmic relationship. This is an example of how far K will go in speaking out against violence, conflict.

Fortunately there are altruistic people who step in and defend the defenseless. Most of us would not condemn their violence. So it is refreshing, if surprising, to see K speaking up, in Ken's quote, about a possibly appropriate self defense response.

Of course, it is lucky that K was not there on the bus because the young men would have beat the crap out of K. And that wouldn't have helped anyone.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 31 May 2017.

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Wed, 31 May 2017 #20
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3058 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:

So it is refreshing, if surprising, to see K speaking up, in Ken's quote, about a possibly appropriate self defense response.
Of course, it is lucky that K was not there on the bus because the young men would have beat the crap out of K. And that wouldn't have helped anyone.

When a niece of mine was young a friend of the family used to have to drive her to school, because some of the kids who rode the school bus were so violent that my niece was very frightened of them. I wonder, did K lock his doors and windows at night? Or did Mrs. Z. do it for him? I'm sure she locked up at night in her very expensive Malibu home....and was thankful that police patrolled the neighborhood at night. Obviously K's ending of violence in himself(if he in fact did so) didn't end all the violence in the U.S.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 31 May 2017.

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Wed, 31 May 2017 #21
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I wonder, did K lock his doors and windows at night?

You can find instances where K described himself as "protected." However, I don't think he ever went into how such implied supernatural "protection" worked.

If you read Michael Krohnen's book, The Kitchen Chronicles, he kind of stalked K before he knew him. Of course, Krohnen doesn't depict himself as a creepy stalker. But, well, you decide for yourself:

Michael Krohnen, The Kitchen Chronicles, pages 32-33:
...three people came down the road toward the chalet. I ducked low behind the yellow-flowered bush, peering through the foliage. One of the three was indeed Krishnamurti. The two ladies following him were animatedly conversing with each other. One of them, of delicate build, I recognized as the driver of the Mercedes, while the other woman appeared rather sturdy and tall. I remained out of sight and kept watching Krishnamurti closely. Although my spying activity triggered a guilty pang of conscience, I yet felt a strange thrill watching him.

Suddenly, he reacted, as if he was aware of someone watching him. He appeared startled, looked around quickly and began to walk faster. Keeping his body close to the stone wall of the driveway, as if seeking its protection, he hurried toward the door of the chalet and swiftly entered.

Naturally Krohnen didn't mean K any harm but it is interesting that K reacted almost exactly how one does when one sees a snake in the road, which K describes as reacting from intelligence rather than fear. So in the Krohnen incident, perhaps K's awareness was its own "protection?"

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 31 May 2017.

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Sat, 03 Jun 2017 #22
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
"The Taormina Seclusion: 1912" by Joseph Ross

Does this book or does any other describe the Theosophical initiations? I have long wondered what the initiations entailed. But I suppose they were and are kept secret, hence the name "esoteric."

My guess is that they involved astral travel to the Masters, possibly both during sleep and during the day in some kind of meditation? Somehow the masters would purify/anoint the initiate and they would get a new name? Perhaps they would see their previous lives? They would receive instruction for how to dedicate their lives from the masters?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 03 Jun 2017.

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Sat, 03 Jun 2017 #23
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3058 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I wonder, did K lock his doors and windows at night?
You can find instances where K described himself as "protected." However, I don't think he ever went into how such implied supernatural "protection" worked.

He once mentioned that he felt 'protected' when he traveled by plane. One odd story in Mark Lee's book, the Open Door....K recommended putting some kind of 'protective' stones beside the door or walkway to one of the cottages or buildings at Ojai. He also did some kind of 'protective' ritual in the hotel room when they stayed at a hotel when traveling....clearing all the accumulated 'negative' energy in the room. Seems a little 'out there' I'd say.

Let it Be

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Sat, 03 Jun 2017 #24
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 400 posts in this forum Offline

1) Quoted by Ken at #8:
"There was a kind of flame and I saw the Lord and the Master.” (letter from K to Mary Lutyens 1924)

2) From Freedom from the Known Chapter 15, 1969:
Most of us demand completely satisfying, lasting experiences which cannot be destroyed by thought. So behind this demand for experience is the desire for satisfaction, and the demand for satisfaction dictates the experience, and therefore we have not only to understand this whole business of satisfaction but also the thing that is experienced. To have some great satisfaction is a great pleasure; the more lasting, deep and wide the experience the more pleasurable it is, so pleasure dictates the form of experience we demand, and pleasure is the measure by which we measure the experience. Anything measurable is within the limits of thought and is apt to create illusion. You can have marvellous experiences and yet be completely deluded. You will inevitably see visions according to your conditioning; you will see Christ or Buddha or whoever you happen to believe in, and the greater a believer you are the stronger will be your visions, the projections of your own demands and urges.

Whatever K said, saw or experienced in his younger days, whatever teaching he was subjected to, whatever the Theosophists tried to inculcate into him, once K was free from conditioning - as it seems he was - he himself did not turn to and did not seek guidance from such books.

By concentrating on what K knew or did not know, are we not distracting ourselves from the essential questions and problems facing us? Aren't we in effect, as K says in his "review" quoted at #1 above, "maintaining the structure of knowledge, perhaps thinking knowledge is salvation, as most scientists do"? Don't his own words (in bold in the quote from 1969 above) speak to this better than any speculation we might make?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 03 Jun 2017.

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Sun, 04 Jun 2017 #25
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Pez - Is the dispenser the dispensed?

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Tue, 04 Jul 2017 #26
Thumb_77 Ken D United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

Excerpts from Mary Zimbalists's Diary:

"The fifth Ojai talk took place that afternoon, and afterward, back at the cottage, there was a long, harrowing telephone conversation between Rajagopal and K, with Rajagopal haranguing and shouting at K and K shaking with the violence and shock of it."

"After breakfast Rajagopal telephoned with all sorts of questions. It clearly made Krishnaji nervous to talk to him. The potential arguments made him shake. And he said this was one of Rajagopal’s good moods."

"K had slept well and had his breakfast when he said he felt he should telephone Radha Sloss because he had said he would. What ensued was a tirade from her, hammering at K.....Her blistering nag had Krishnaji shaking, worse than in his meetings with Rajagopal. He was exhausted by the time he was able to end the conversation."

Now, isn't it somewhat strange that a person with a brilliant understanding of the nature of fear and insecurity would be so jittery in situations like those above? Just asking...

This post was last updated by Ken D Tue, 04 Jul 2017.

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Tue, 04 Jul 2017 #27
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3058 posts in this forum Offline

There's another odd story about K and the Rajagopals that I read in Mark Lee's book, the Open Door....I think it was. K was out late at some event or other and when he got back home(to the cottage where he was staying....Ojai?) he discovered that he didn't have the key. The Rajagopals were already asleep inside the cottage as it was late at night, and rather than wake them and risk their anger, K stood up all night in a little shed that held the hot water heater in order to stay warm. He was obviously very frightened of their anger. I think she tried to hit him over the head with a bottle one time. But I suspect K only put up with Rajagopal because R. had control of the 'teachings' and K didn't want to break off with him. I'm not clear about who had control over the teachings and/or the collected works and when, so forgive me if I'm off base here.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 05 Jul 2017.

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Wed, 05 Jul 2017 #28
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 209 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Excerpts from Mary Zimbalists's Diary:

"...there was a long, harrowing telephone conversation between Rajagopal and K, with Rajagopal haranguing and shouting at K and K shaking with the violence and shock of it."

...Now, isn't it somewhat strange that a person with a brilliant understanding of the nature of fear and insecurity would be so jittery in situations like those above?

Sure. He was obviously afraid and not free of fear. He was subjected to verbal violence from Rajagopal and perhaps the implied threat that his affair with Rosalind R. would be revealed. Of course, the fact that he had had the affair with Rajagopal's wife could be understood to be violence toward Rajagopal, in the first place, although K and his defenders would never see it that way. If someone had secretly slept with your spouse for decades, you might also verbally retaliate.

Anyway, the point is that K did not always live the teachings - in this case, being totally free of fear - which can call into question the validity of the teachings!

This is why it is so important to investigate and verify for yourself and not just toe the K line.

In my own investigations of fear - and I assure you I am NOT completely free of it when dangerous events occur - I have found that no matter how fully aware of the fear you are, no matter how much you stay with it and "are" it, there is a physical, visceral aspect that does not dissipate for some time. You can have all the awareness in the world and in your gut you still feel the fear. Transformation is not. It is one of the most fundamental base instincts.

However, it is true that love and fear are by and large opposites. Real love only is when fear is not. So it is vital to investigate fear through awareness and meditation. Just don't be surprised if fear pops up again in a moment of true danger.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 05 Jul 2017.

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Wed, 05 Jul 2017 #29
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 167 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
the point is that K did not always live the teachings

It is amazing how many people feel qualified/authoritative to make these kinds of judgements, based on third hand information.

If, for instance, K was 80% free of fear/anger, is that living the teaching?

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Wed, 05 Jul 2017 #30
Thumb_3740 richard head United States 167 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
it is true that love and fear are by and large opposites. Real love only is when fear is not. So it is vital to investigate fear through awareness and meditation. Just don't be surprised if fear pops up again in a moment of true danger.

"awareness and meditation"? What is "real love"? A par is only when bogie, is not

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