Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Why don't you change?


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Sun, 23 Apr 2017 #1
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Why don't you change? Krishnamurti answers this question in four minutes and twenty-one seconds here.

Any thoughts on this?

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Sun, 23 Apr 2017 #2
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

I'll paraphrase K's answer to his own question: Because we're so deeply conditioned psychologically and are not aware of it. Unless there is freedom from that conditioning we'll go on with it. That pretty much sumarizes the whole short video. Are all of our thoughts and actions conditioned? Or is there a part of me that is not conditioned...that can act on the conditioning?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 23 Apr 2017.

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Mon, 24 Apr 2017 #3
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
we're so deeply conditioned

I would very politely suggest Tom, that if we deeply understood the phenomenon of conditioning, we might not be so concerned what or what not to do about it (be free of it, etc.). What exactly is conditioning, would you say?

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Mon, 24 Apr 2017 #4
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
is there a part of me that is not conditioned...that can act on the conditioning?

If we use the word programming instead of conditioning, we see that our life experience which we carry around as thought/thinking, is the conditioning itself. There is no conditioning that thought (or any other state of mind) can act upon. But that does not imply that there is not a state of mind that thought will not interfere with.

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Mon, 24 Apr 2017 #5
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Are all of our thoughts and actions conditioned? Or is there a part of me that is not conditioned...that can act on the conditioning?

Hi Tom. I understand that thought and conditioning are very closely connected. Are they the same? When thought is absent perhaps conditioning is absent so we could ask if we ever act without thought being present. Surely we do, don't we?

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Mon, 24 Apr 2017 #6
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sean Hen wrote:
we could ask if we ever act without thought being present.

Certainly for peak performance of any act/action/activity thought must not interfere.

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Mon, 24 Apr 2017 #7
Thumb_photo saurab marjara India 61 posts in this forum Offline

we do change all the time. we are not how we were as a child or even a young adult.

Perhaps K means that we dont change "fundamentally". Well, fundamental change is gradual. WE can have an insight into our conditioning, but that insight alone is not sufficient to change us, because habits cannot be changed all of a sudden. After the insight, there is a gradual process of integrating the understanding with our actions/thoughts/feelings. This process takes time.

People usually think that there is some "big insight" after which we suddenly change. But this is a fallacy. WE dont change suddenly. Even the path to enlightenment is a painstakingly long and gradual one. Slowly, our feelings change. Slowly our conditioning drops away. Slowly there is clarity in our life.

In some sense, this process has already started for most of us. How intense it is, is up to the individual.

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Mon, 24 Apr 2017 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

we're so deeply conditioned
I would very politely suggest Tom, that if we deeply understood the phenomenon of conditioning, we might not be so concerned what or what not to do about it (be free of it, etc.). What exactly is conditioning, would you say?

I was paraphrasing K's answer to his own question that he posed in the video...."why don't we change?" he asked; and he answered that it may be because we're so deeply conditioned. K was the one talking about changing. So let's get to your question. What is conditioning? It's probably deserving of its own thread. Anyone want to start? It's a fact that the mind is conditioned by punishment and reward isn't it? And there's conflict inherent in our way of living....functioning...acting....according to the conditioned patterns of the mind.

Let it Be

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Mon, 24 Apr 2017 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
When thought is absent perhaps conditioning is absent so we could ask if we ever act without thought being present. Surely we do, don't we?

I'm not sure that that's the issue, Sean. The problem is not that we sometimes may act without thought, but rather that most of our actions conform to the pattern of our thinking....conform to our/thought's conditioning. And this way of acting is responsible for the state of our world...suffering, violence, etc.

Let it Be

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Wed, 26 Apr 2017 #10
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The problem is not that we sometimes may act without thought, but rather that most of our actions conform to the pattern of our thinking....conform to our/thought's conditioning.

Hi Tom. I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Could you give an example?

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Wed, 26 Apr 2017 #11
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

saurab marjara wrote:
People usually think that there is some "big insight" after which we suddenly change. But this is a fallacy. WE dont change suddenly.

Hello Saurab. Isn't this sudden change something which Krishnamurti talked about?

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Wed, 26 Apr 2017 #12
Thumb_photo saurab marjara India 61 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Hello Saurab. Isn't this sudden change something which Krishnamurti talked about?

Well, whether K talked about a sudden change or not, the fact is that change is gradual almost always. It could be sudden too, in certain cases, but most of the time, change is gradual.

I could give you an example from my life. When I first read K, about 16 years ago, I was a practising Hindu, which means that I used to worship the Hindu gods and goddesses. This was my conditioning. So, when K used to talk about "petty gods", I used to be disturbed, but I continued in my practices nevertheless.

After a few years, I started seriously questioning the notion of deities/gods. It took me time to digest what K was talking about. Today, I am free of the conditioning. But it took a few years for me to digest this truth. Slowly, I changed in this respect.

Deep seated habits dont change all of a sudden most of the times. They do occasionally, but not most of the times.

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Wed, 26 Apr 2017 #13
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

saurab marjara wrote:
Deep seated habits dont change all of a sudden most of the times. They do occasionally, but not most of the times.

I see it this way also. The 'idea' of a total instantaneous psychological 'Revolution' creates 'craving', the 'pot at the end of the rainbow' etc. The idea becomes a goal you work toward, effort and desire. It brings in 'time':" I don't have it now but I will have it hopefully in the future". You 'measure' yourself against it (judgement). As you say it may happen to some but for me it is just another 'escape' by thought...

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Wed, 26 Apr 2017 #14
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Could you give an example?

Sorry I wasn't clear, Sean. Here's your statement again: "When thought is absent perhaps conditioning is absent so we could ask if we ever act without thought being present. Surely we do, don't we?"

My point was that we mostly DO act out of the conditioning. The fact that we may at times act free of it is not really the issue. The almost ever present conditioning seems to be the relevant issue. You are free to disagree of course.

Let it Be

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Thu, 27 Apr 2017 #15
Thumb_photo saurab marjara India 61 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
There is no conditioning that thought (or any other state of mind) can act upon.

I beg to differ. Thought can and does act on conditioning. Careful thought, which is the result of insight, can act on our conditioning. The trouble is not that we dont realize our conditioning, but that we like it. We like our conditioning. That is why we dont make the effort to get rid of it.

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Thu, 27 Apr 2017 #16
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

saurab marjara wrote:
Careful thought, which is the result of insight, can act on our conditioning.

Many current posters use the word insight as if they occur with regularity.

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Thu, 27 Apr 2017 #17
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

saurab marjara wrote:
Thought can and does act on conditioning

If we use the word programming instead of conditioning, we see that thought is the language of our conditioning/programming. So the suggestion that we throw more thought (gasoline) onto our program/thought (fire) to extinguish same, seems unadequate.

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Thu, 27 Apr 2017 #18
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1453 posts in this forum Offline

saurab marjara wrote:
We like our conditioning. That is why we dont make the effort to get rid of it.

I would say rather that we ARE our conditioning. And our "likes" and dislikes are part of that conditioning. The idea that we can make an effort and change it strengthens the idea that there is this duality: 'me' and my conditioning. That provides a feeling of security, that we are in 'control' That is the 'illusion' created by thought and the source of conflict. I think it is the fear of losing this 'control' that is the powerful 'conditioning' that keeps things as they are: "better this than god knows what."

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Thu, 27 Apr 2017 #19
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

saurab marjara wrote:
We like our conditioning. That is why we dont make the effort to get rid of it.

That effort is more conflict and division...'me' vs the evil conditioning...no?

Let it Be

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Wed, 03 May 2017 #20
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
My point was that we mostly DO act out of the conditioning. The fact that we may at times act free of it is not really the issue. The almost ever present conditioning seems to be the relevant issue

Hi Tom. I just wanted to explore the possibility that we can act and behave free of our conditioning. Maybe at moments when we act without thought operating. Don't we sometimes help someone we see in need, for example? If we can act without thought being present even occasionally then perhaps we can do it more. Aren't there moments when we are free of our conditioning and conditioned behaviour?

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Thu, 04 May 2017 #21
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

People don't change because they don't think there's anything wrong with them. They think others are violent but they don't think they are violent. Then they proceed to lambast someone here at kinfonet. But, of course, that is not violence, that's kind, helpfulness to the person who needs setting straight. Or they are angry or cruel to someone else they know. But they are, of course, justified.

Don't you consider yourself non-violent, justified?

So to begin with, I won't change unless I see my own violence and my own justification. But seeing that is the last thing most people want.

Also, K says that if people really loved their children, they would end all wars. But he didn't end all wars! So if K can't end all war, how are you and I going to do it? I can start with my own personal wars, my conflicts with others and internally with myself. If I notice my own irritation, and see that I am that conflict, I am not separate from it, then moment to moment change is.

If there is no noticing, there is no beginning.

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Sun, 07 May 2017 #22
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
People don't change because they don't think there's anything wrong with them. They think others are violent but they don't think they are violent. Then they proceed to lambast someone here at kinfonet. But, of course, that is not violence, that's kind, helpfulness to the person who needs setting straight. Or they are angry or cruel to someone else they know. But they are, of course, justified.

If you don't mind me saying so idiot?, you seem to have quite a negative opinion of your fellow forum members here on Kinfonet. Or are you being kind and helpful and setting us straight? It's difficult to know .....

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Mon, 08 May 2017 #23
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Also, K says that if people really loved their children, they would end all wars. But he didn't end all wars! So if K can't end all war, how are you and I going to do it? I can start with my own personal wars, my conflicts with others and internally with myself. If I notice my own irritation, and see that I am that conflict, I am not separate from it, then moment to moment change is.

If there is no noticing, there is no beginning.

Sean Hen wrote:
If you don't mind me saying so idiot?, you seem to have quite a negative opinion of your fellow forum members here on Kinfonet. Or are you being kind and helpful and setting us straight? It's difficult to know .....

What idiot? is saying have some truth in it Sean. Is it an opinion or an observation ? It is to you to say.

Another interesting thing is that : if there is a noticing, only then there is a possibility of a beginning. We human being have inherit violence. Can we go beyond violence ? But before answering that, we have to notice it. Then we can begin to look at it and understsand it. And without this beginning, can there be any ending ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Mon, 08 May 2017.

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Mon, 08 May 2017 #24
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
What idiot? is saying have some truth in it Sean. Is it an opinion or an observation ? It is to you to say.

Hello Rich. Yes, what idiot? says usually has some truth in it. Is that an observation or an opinion?

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Mon, 08 May 2017 #25
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Hello Rich. Yes, what idiot? says usually has some truth in it. Is that an observation or an opinion?

As I already said, it all depend on you. The fact that we are maybe not aware of our own actual or pending violence, is it an opinion for you, or an observation, something noticeable ?

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Mon, 08 May 2017 #26
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 689 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
If you don't mind me saying so idiot?, you seem to have quite a negative opinion of your fellow forum members here on Kinfonet. Or are you being kind and helpful and setting us straight?

Sean Hen, I aim to be friendly, warm in interaction, and respectful. And yet, I do wonder if we live up to what K pointed to. Would he sit up from his grave, look at kinfonet, and say, "Yes, they are carrying on rather well in their investigations, in love and caring." Or would he say, "My God, this is what 'dialogue' has descended into?"

It's not just here. I just got back from the annual gathering in Ojai. Some there are such extreme K worshipers, virtually deifying him. (Whereas I take the view that he was human like all of us, with flaws. If we make him into some pinnacle, then how are his teachings practical and reachable for average folk?) Others are very intellectual in their understanding and discussions. I lay part of the blame for that on K himself. He discussed matters very intellectually and sometimes described true meditation as something that cannot be done with any intentionality or even consciousness. Is it any wonder that few K-interested people ever sit down in openness, in silence? Yet without real meditation it all remains intellectual, not heartfelt in the bones.

Perhaps I should reserve the most judgment for myself. Do I do enough to question together with people and to get to the bottom of these questions? No.

Of course, applying K teaching, seeing judgment and comparison without trying to change them, do they not transform with the sunlight of awareness? Sometimes. Sometimes they evaporate. Other times they linger. Thank you for pointing it out.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 08 May 2017.

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Mon, 08 May 2017 #27
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Sean Hen, I aim to be friendly, warm in interaction, and respectful. And yet, I do wonder if we live up to what K pointed to. Would he sit up from his grave, look at kinfonet, and say, "Yes, they are carrying on rather well in their investigations, in love and caring." Or we he say, "My God, this is what 'dialogue' has descended into?"

Thanks for your reply idiot?. I can only say that I feel there is a great deal of truth in your observations.

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Mon, 08 May 2017 #28
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
As I already said, it all depend on you. The fact that we are maybe not aware of our own actual or pending violence, is it an opinion for you, or an observation, something noticeable ?

Hi Rich. I'm not really sure what you mean here. Am I aware of my actual or pending violence? Do you mean in general or here in this forum or both?

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Tue, 09 May 2017 #29
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

In general, in our daily life, in our relations, our interactions with the world, which include this discussion forum.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Tue, 09 May 2017.

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Wed, 10 May 2017 #30
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
In general, in our daily life, in our relations, our interactions with the world, which include this discussion forum.

Hello Rich. So the question is whether we are aware of our own actual and pending violence.

Well, we are probably not fully aware of a great many things. Most of us live in a society where there is a great deal of violence both physical and non-physical. To get on in such a competitive world, an aggressive attitude towards life is seen as desirable in some occupations. The states that we live in spend billions designing and manufacturing the most sophisticated weapons of mass destruction. In daily life it's easier to be aware of more evident violence such as physical violence rather than verbal or written aggression and violence. Perhaps we are violent verbally with our families or workmates without realising it. Here on the forum we may give a curt reply to a fellow forum member because we feel frustrated, insulted or ignored either here in the forum or in earlier an incident in our daily lives.

I try to be aware of violence in myself both as it arises and after it has happened. On the forum, like idiot?, I try to be respectful and friendly to my fellow posters but I'm sure I get drawn into discussions that end up getting overly heated and regret this afterwards.

What do you think Rich and others?

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