Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Choiceless perception

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Displaying posts 241 - 270 of 297 in total
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #241
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
And then you point out that the discussion "does not move". Are you saying that it should move? Sounds like it.

Again. the people who post here have the idea things move and go "somewhere". Randal is simply pointing to the fact. Argue your beliefs all you like Jack, repeat Pauls nonsense, it's ok by me, but don't expect me to respond.

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Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #242
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
The problem with criticizing almost everything that others say and do is that one who does that invariably finds himself doing the same thing he is criticizing others for.

Just pointing to the fact, Jack.

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Mon, 03 Apr 2017 #243
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Again. the people who post here have the idea things move and go "somewhere". Randal is simply pointing to the fact.

Hi Randall. It seems strange to me that you can say this. Firstly, this is a huge generalisation. Many different people post here but you have lumped them all together and told us how that they all have the same idea. How can you possibly know this?

To go back to the analogy of this forum as a forest. We are all walking through the forest together. There is no "going somewhere" or "escaping the forest", we're just all in here. There is great beauty in the forest if we have the eyes to see it but we normally don't. We are too busy wrapped up in our individual envelope of thought.

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Mon, 03 Apr 2017 #244
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Again. the people who post here have the idea things move and go "somewhere". Randal is simply pointing to the fact. Argue your beliefs all you like Jack, repeat Pauls nonsense, it's ok by me, but don't expect me to respond.

This is the strangest argument I have so far encountered on this forum !!

Who is the person responded here and who is the person posted this post here ??
Did/do you come from nowhere ??

So it appears that some one gone doesn't mean something is gone !!

Wimbledon, London, United Kingdom | 2nd Public Talk, 16th March 1969

The eagle in its flight does not leave a mark, only the scientist does.
And in enquiring into this question of freedom there must be not only the
scientific observation, but also the flight of the eagle that does not leave a mark at all;
both are required; which is, both the verbal explanation
and the non-verbal perception
,
bearing in mind that the description is never the described, the explanation
is never that thing which is explained, that is the word is never the thing.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 03 Apr 2017.

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Mon, 03 Apr 2017 #245
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Just pointing to the fact, Jack.

Are you just pointing to "the fact" or are you just expressing your opinion which is based on your conditioning?

A fact might be that the sun appears to rise in the east because of the rotation of the earth. Most people agree with that because it can be confirmed by casual observation. But there is apparently not a consensus that what you have pointed out is indeed a "fact". And you have not conclusively demonstrated that what you have written are facts.

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Mon, 03 Apr 2017 #246
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, last night I was reading a chapter, Thought and Perception, in the publication "The Limits of Thought" which is a dialogue between K and Dr Bohm that took place in 1975. If you can find this publication, which isn't easy, I strongly recommend that you read it. It is a very interesting discussion that is very relevant to your thread here.

I will post something from this chapter later when I have more time.

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Mon, 03 Apr 2017 #247
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Wim, last night I was reading a chapter, Thought and Perception, in the publication "The Limits of Thought" which is a dialogue between K and Dr Bohm that took place in 1975.

Jack thanks for the tip,

This paperback stands on my bookshelf and I will reread the section tonight !

One of the beautiful things in the forum is that you can read quotes you otherwise would not get because one does not have all the books available.

But Krishnaji and Bohm, They are still my favorites.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 03 Apr 2017 #248
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
But there is apparently not a consensus that what you have pointed out is indeed a "fact".

Apparently not. In fact, there seems to be a consensus that what I post, is not.

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Mon, 03 Apr 2017 #249
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Most people agree with that because it can be confirmed by casual observation.

For hundreds, if not thousands of years, casual observation said that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. So much for casual observation being a reliable tool to tell us the truth/fact.

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Mon, 03 Apr 2017 #250
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

No, I guess I didn't state it very clearly. Casual observation could see that it was a fact that the sun came up in the east. Later it was found that the earth is rotating rather than the sun moving. By adding the detail of the earth spinning I was hoping to forestall a comment to the effect that the sun really isn't rising but rather the earth is turning. No matter what anyone writes it can be twisted to mean something else or used against the writer. You know what I meant and it still applies as a simple example of a fact.

You know you can either try to understand what someone is saying and communicate with them or you can put your energy into trying to one up them; to make a point and appear to "win". Maybe you should have been a lawyer.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 03 Apr 2017.

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Tue, 04 Apr 2017 #251
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Maybe you should have been a lawyer.

Maybe, we should just move on Jack. I have nothing else to add to this conversation.

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Tue, 04 Apr 2017 #252
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Wim I don't know if you have had time to read the chapter I pointed out. But if you have it becomes clear that "perception" is so much more than a definition in a dictionary. K and Bohm discovered so much together about perception, what affect it may have on brain cells, consciousness and by extension one's thinking. Since consciousness is thought.

I am certainly not able to paraphrase or summarize what they said. Mostly because I don't think I understand a lot of what they are saying. I am going to reread the chapter again and maybe again.

All of us are so deeply locked into our conditioning we don't really appreciate how any response at all is that conditioning in operation, in response.

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Tue, 04 Apr 2017 #253
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
All of us are so deeply locked into our conditioning we don't really appreciate how any response at all is that conditioning in operation, in response.

True. Consciousness it totally conditioned....so any movement it makes is conditioned...not free. Seeing the fact of that brings thinking to a stop, if only momentarily.

Let it Be

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Tue, 04 Apr 2017 #254
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Wim I don't know if you have had time to read the chapter I pointed out.
But if you have it becomes clear that "perception" is so much more than a definition in a dictionary.

Yes, i've read it years ago and after rereading now seeing that the understanding
of it changed from 'I knoW, I understand ' to 'I know that I don't know !'

although the logic is easy to follow at the same time I realize that I do not understand it as such that I can explain to another with my own words, nor that it feels or looks as understanding.

It's different from - what I now understand from the former "intellectual understand" without feeling like it's fully understood.
Do you understand what I'm saying?

But maybe this is again also a trick of the mind !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Tue, 04 Apr 2017.

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Wed, 05 Apr 2017 #255
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

Hi all

Last night while again rereading the chapter something special happened.
Quite spontaneously dropped the reading rate repeatedly to nearly zero and with at those moments an intense bright energy.

During the night several times long and very bright awake to fall asleep afterwards.

Something is definitly changed although I can't describe what, but it feels good.

P.S. I'll let it rest and may be come back on it or not .

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Wed, 05 Apr 2017.

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Wed, 05 Apr 2017 #256
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1162 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Apparently not. In fact, there seems to be a consensus that what I post, is not.

Some "nowheres" are better than others.

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Wed, 05 Apr 2017 #257
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

dave h wrote:
Some "nowheres" are better than others.

Exactly dave, the same old "nowhere", day after day, over and over.....gets old. At least consider the possibility of some other "nowhere" to not pursue.

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #258
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Exactly dave, the same old "nowhere", day after day, over and over.....gets old...

It gets old for you. You can't speak for others and what they might or might 'get' out of the forum. You have no way of knowing that. We know already your view by now, but do you have to let us know every single day...sometimes several times a day? Do you have any hobbies? Not trying to be snide but your response is 'getting old'. Sorry, but that's my view.

Let it Be

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #259
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
It gets old for you. You can't speak for others and what they might or might 'get' out of the forum. You have no way of knowing that. We know already your view by now, but do you have to let us know every single day...sometimes several times a day? Do you have any hobbies? Not trying to be snide but your response is 'getting old'. Sorry, but that's my view.

It gets old for someone not pursuing pleasure/comfort/security.

My posts generally are a response to the same tired old path of information/knowledge/thought.

Me pointing to the fact, over and over, is quite different than someone expressing self, over and over, for the sake of self agrandizment/expression and the comfort/security/pleasure it brings.

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #260
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
We know already your view by now,

We also see the view of the disoriented mind lost and confused by the hypnotic effect of knowledge/thought. Perpetually repeating slogans and quoting memorized ideas promoted within and without. All in the guise of some elusive goal or reward (in this life or next) and calling it happiness or love or some other movement from here (what is) to there (what should be).

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #261
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
It gets old for someone not pursuing pleasure/comfort/security.

Aren't you doing it too? Or are you really that different than the rest?

Let it Be

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #262
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3072 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
. Perpetually repeating slogans and quoting memorized ideas promoted within and without.

Yes, that's the human mind seeking security in the known.

randall merryman wrote:
All in the guise of some elusive goal or reward (in this life or next) and calling it happiness or love or some other movement from here (what is) to there (what should be).

I doubt that that's ALL that's going on on the forum. I know you disagree. Perhaps others will share their view.

Let it Be

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #263
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Exactly dave, the same old "nowhere", day after day, over and over.....gets old.

But what you have to ask is; are you really seeing what others are doing or is what are seeing, the basis of your conclusions, simply your conditioning, your boredom with life, your view of life? If there is observing who is it that is feeling the boredom?

Try leaving yourself, your beliefs and simply watch without wanting or expecting something else.

Perhaps what is happening is what you have suggested others are doing and that is you come here wanting to be entertained, stimulated. You don't need anyone here to show you or tell you anything.

I think the only honest objection for one to make on here is if someone is consistently preventing conversations, dialogues, from happening. We had that problem recently and hopefully it has been remedied.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 06 Apr 2017.

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #264
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1162 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I think the only honest objection for one to make on here is if someone is consistently preventing conversations, dialogues, from happening. We had that problem recently and hopefully it has been remedied.

Yes, that definitely prevents the discussion from going somewhere.

The notion has come up, that if someone does this, somehow it's OK because it's then up to the others to ignore them. The thing is we are not idealised constructs, but actual human beings, who do get distracted and bothered by these things. That is the fact of it, and surely on a K-site, this is the place to stay with these sorts of facts. Being compared ad nauseam to some idea of how we could or should be able to react, seems to be an example of going nowhere. Is that really the purpose of the forum?

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #265
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
Is that really the purpose of the forum?

I don't know. What is the purpose of this forum?

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #266
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1040 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I don't know. What is the purpose of this forum?

Inquisitiveness !!

btw who of you heared of The blue economy ??

Working together is better than concurring eachother !!

good starting point would be: http://www.theblueeconomy.org

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #267
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 576 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Are you just pointing to "the fact" or are you just expressing your opinion which is based on your conditioning?

Hi Jack and all. I think we all like to think that our version of the truth is "a fact". We all look at the world through our screen of conditioning, don't we? Whether we're looking at this forum, a mountain or a cloud, we see it through our own personal screen. So this forum is going to be interesting, boring, worthwhile etc depending on who is observing it. I would say that this is a fact :)

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #268
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4908 posts in this forum Offline

Your above post is a good and concise summary of what I was trying to say in post 263, thanks.

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #269
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
Aren't you doing it too?

Am I? The majority seem to think so.

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Thu, 06 Apr 2017 #270
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
But what you have to ask is; are you really seeing what others are doing or is what are seeing, the basis of your conclusions, simply your conditioning, your boredom with life, your view of life?

Good question. How would you find the fact of it? Come to consensus with other posters? Use your own thinking/authority/judgement?

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