Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Choiceless perception

This topic is locked.


Displaying posts 211 - 240 of 297 in total
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #211
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

And Randall, I am not trying to isolate, intimidate nor alienate you. I am just responding to what you have written. You often have had interesting and relevant things to say on this forum. It just seems to me that you have made your point(s) and can we move on now?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #212
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 997 posts in this forum Offline

Ken B wrote:

Jack Pine wrote:

Let's no worry about Jean. Jean was irrational and delusional and he had to be stopped or no topic could have proceeded without his disrupting it. Thankfully he's gone.

He's not gone, merely offline.

Free at last, not on a leach, let's hope he is happy now ;-)

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #213
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 997 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We want to understand why humanity is screwing up big time, with our brutality and violence and our callousness towards the plight of our fellow man. "You are the world." Donald Trump is US!

Tom,

Hearing the words and now HE is telling the world I'am the world,
he took it too personal ;-)

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 30 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #214
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
HE is telling the world I'am the world,
he took it too personal ;-)

:) "I am the world, and those who disagree with anything I say are excluded from the/my world."

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 30 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #215
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
It just seems to me that you have made your point(s) and can we move on now?

And so you want to move from here to there? From where to where precisely? People here say they get something unique and special coming to the forum year after year, yet the discussion does not move. I realize that pointing to the fact over and over makes people upset and labels me as a pessimistic negative nancy, however I do what I do, and I can do no other (just like everyone else). When Dev has had enough, he will put me into K purgatory, just like our friend Jean/Phil. ;)

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #216
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
you have to look at what you think is your own understanding and question it.

I wish I would have said this because this is all I'm saying.

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #217
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Some, including myself, find it worthwhile taking part in discussions here. At many points there are contributions which make me reflect, perhaps go further with my understanding of K's teachings.

This Sean, appears to be a subjective opinion. Where does Krishnamurti say that understanding on a deep level comes incrementally in a step by step fashion? In fact, he says frequently that this kind of movement is superficial/verbal/intellectual and really no understanding at all.

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #218
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
That's the question that I'm asking myself, Sean....do these discussions help me/you/us to better understand the teachings? In my own case, I can honestly reply, yes. Better understanding of the teachings translates to better understanding of oneself

Sorry Tom, but a "better" understanding is not what K talks about. It implies time/thinking, a step by step process of understanding, which K himself denies as being adequate. And also a deep understanding of oneself, allows an understanding of what K talks about, not the other way around. (you used my name in your post so I felt compelled to respond)

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #219
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Sorry Tom, but a "better" understanding is not what K talks about. It implies time/thinking, a step by step process of understanding, which K himself denies as being adequate.

I recall him talking about a deepening understanding....his words. Of course understanding/insight doesn't take place in time,...thought. yet understanding can and does deepen, as I see it.

randall merryman wrote:
And also a deep understanding of oneself, allows an understanding of what K talks about, not the other way around.

Why not both ways? Insight one gets when reading a talk brings understanding of onself, right? He IS talking about the mind of man...

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 30 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #220
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
I realize that pointing to the fact over and over makes people upset and labels me as a pessimistic negative nancy, however I do what I do, and I can do no other (just like everyone else).

But you keep repeating this point over and over, and it doesn't stop the rest of us from coming here and discussing. Of course, you're free to do it, but what's the point, if no one is listening, of repeating this point ad nauseum?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 30 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #221
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Insight one gets when reading a talk brings understanding of onself, right?

I would just suggest Tom, that the word insight is somewhat problematic, wouldn't you say? Any knowledge/information/verbal/intellectual based "insight" K frequently states is superficial and no real understanding at all. If you are implying an insight not based in time/thought/knowledge, well, there really are not many of those around it seems because what step comes after the first?

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #222
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
it doesn't stop the rest of us from coming here and discussing.

Well, the point is not, to stop people from coming to Kinfonet. I whole heartedly encourage participation in any way shape or form. But I expect the same courtesy. If you don't want to hear/see what I post, don't do it (Read my postings).

Stuff happens

This post was last updated by randall merryman Thu, 30 Mar 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #223
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Of course, you're free to do it, but what's the point, if no one is listening, of repeating this point ad nauseum?

Who truly listened to Krishnamurti? Check out what he has to say about the art of listening/seeing.

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #224
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
would just suggest Tom, that the word insight is somewhat problematic, wouldn't you say? Any knowledge/information/verbal/intellectual based "insight" K frequently states is superficial and no real understanding at all.

No, I wouldn't say that it is. Insight is not intellectually based. It takes place beyond the thinking intellect. I think K even claimed that it changes the brain cells. I actually felt this change/mutation once, though you're probably going to say I'm fooling myself. But one particular insight left me with the feeling that the brain had changed...mutated ...in some way. Likely not the 'total mutation' K spoke of, but the feeling seemed to be reality.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #225
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Likely not the 'total mutation' K spoke of, but the feeling seemed to be reality.

If not the Insight K spoke of........

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 30 Mar 2017 #226
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I actually felt this change/mutation once, though you're probably going to say I'm fooling myself. But one particular insight left me with the feeling that the brain had changed...mutated ...in some way.

Again, if not the Insight K spoke of, the power of intellect/illusion probably is the result. Though you denied the possible problems with the word insight, we seem to be having problems with it none the less.

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 31 Mar 2017 #227
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Likely not the 'total mutation' K spoke of, but the feeling seemed to be reality.
If not the Insight K spoke of........

That's not the point I was making. I simply said insight brings change....to the brain cells, perhaps, as K indicated...change in one's behavior. I never said anything about K's insight.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 31 Mar 2017 #228
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
we seem to be having problems with it none the less.

'We'? I have no problem using the word.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 31 Mar 2017 #229
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 523 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
This Sean, appears to be a subjective opinion. Where does Krishnamurti say that understanding on a deep level comes incrementally in a step by step fashion? In fact, he says frequently that this kind of movement is superficial/verbal/intellectual and really no understanding at all.

Hi again Randall. I don't know about this step by step business. Yesterday I was looking at a new leaf on a lilac tree on my balcony in the spring sunshine. It may well produce beautiful flowers soon. I don't know if I was doing something wrong, if that was step by step or superficial understanding but it was a lovely thing to see.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 31 Mar 2017 #230
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 997 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:

Let's go back to the topic:

Ommen Camp, Holland | 1st Public Talk 25th July, 1936

Shall we, by studying the tissues and organic fluids, know what is thought, what is mind, what is that consciousness which is hidden in living matter?

Or is there another way, a choiceless perception ?

By still being busy in looking in this I see that perceiving and observation are as the tide with the incoming and outgoing energy as it looks like breathing in and breathing out.

By percieving it's the appearance of a object/subject of information
and by observation it's the looking towards to object/subject of information. Both are - as we already have established i think - easy influenced by our conditioning, preferences and dislikes.

choiceless seems to be the absence of the influence of 'I/ME' in why and how one is perceiving and observing at information !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 01 Apr 2017 #231
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
And so you want to move from here to there? From where to where precisely? People here say they get something unique and special coming to the forum year after year, yet the discussion does not move.

Randall, here is a response to many questions and objections you have posted lately. I think the following responses from Paul Davidson raise some interesting points. What do you think?

Paul Davidson wrote:

Hi Jack, been watching the exchanges with Randall. He says, "Please Jack, you give me too much credit for these exchanges going nowhere."

The thing is, his line of intervention seems to be a critique that things go 'nowhere.' That critique only has meaning in relation to a counter-idea that things should or could go 'somewhere.'

The question could be asked him, why the preoccupation with things going 'somewhere?' Of course discussion goes nowhere. It's not supposed to get anyplace. It's done for its own sake, whether or not there is any fundamental movement as a consequence. He cannot have it both ways.

Do you see what I mean? You know, one goes for a walk in nature not to get somewhere but for the pleasure of walking. The same with exchanges around the K teaching. One is not hoping for enlightenment at the end of it. One is not entering the forest in order to find an exit. One is simply there, enjoying the trees.

Randall's interventions are either based on a misunderstanding or they are perverse. It's for him to say which. Maybe we are all nowhere men, living in our nowhere lands. That's okay too. Just that someone who repeats and repeats the fact like a parrot loses the beauty of the journey to nowhere.

Best regards,

Paul

Ps. You may post this response if you wish, as I'm not allowed to post on the gen forum.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #232
Thumb_me_3_reduced_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 1797 posts in this forum Offline

Excellent response from Paul. Thank you for sharing it Jack.

Ah - the expectation of a final destination to this endless 'journey to nowhere'! :)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #233
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Best regards,

Paul

Where does Randal ever say things should be this or that? That the discussions should take any particular direction? (please give the thread and date Paul) Almost all my interventions are simply pointing to the fact. It's the majority of people who post here (read some of the responses to what I post) that have the belief/opinion that they have gained or progressed in some fashion or other. Paul's assertions that Randal is in some way directing people to go in a certain path or pattern (somewhere), is absurd. Perverse?

Stuff happens

This post was last updated by randall merryman Sun, 02 Apr 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #234
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The question could be asked him, why the preoccupation with things going 'somewhere?'

Thread and date please. Groundless accusations that get recommendations? Sounds like the old days.

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #235
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
That critique only has meaning in relation to a counter-idea that things should or could go 'somewhere.'

Only in the mind that dwells compulsively in a "corridor of opposites". It's really kind of "perverse" to create a "counter-idea" and bring a distorted argument to a discussion you are not allowed to participate in, Paul.

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #236
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:
I've not come to that conclusion.

On a thread called "choicless awareness", you will use the choice mechanism to decide this or that?

Tom Paine wrote:
randall merryman wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:
Read the book

Randall Wrote:
More knowledge/information to help seeing clearly?

Randall Wrote:

I've not come to that conclusion.
On a thread called "choicless awareness", you will use the choice mechanism to decide this or that?

Tom Wrote:

No, Randall...I did not decide/conclude anything. That was my point. You have decided....that it's all no different than discussing the ball game at the bar. I've not decided or concluded anything about that.

Tom Paine wrote:
I've not decided or concluded anything about that.

Randall Wrote:

But you continue to rely on that mechanism to make the choice to agree-disagree.

Tom Paine wrote:
Who said anything about seeing clearly. Just telling you that she got it from the horse's mouth

Randall Wrote:

Third hand knowledge/information sir.

Tom Paine wrote:
Because you say it like a man who has already decided/concluded. Anyone else want to jump in on randall's point that what we are doing here is essentially no different than two guys at the bar discussing the Yankees and Mets? He's concluded (I've concluded that he's concluded, because he says it emphatically all the time) that it's just entertainment...we come here seeking comfort/security in ideas, concepts, knowledge, information. Nothing more goes on here.

Tom Paine wrote:
Randall has been telling us we cannot apparently

Randall Wrote:

Pointing out the fact that you are not, does not imply that you cannot.

Tom Paine wrote:
Does anyone agree...disagree?

Randall Wrote:

Again, agree and disagree is information/knowledge/choice. The exit from the forest is not that direction.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #237
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Paul Davidson wrote:
That critique only has meaning in relation to a counter-idea that things should or could go 'somewhere.'

Randall Wrote:

Only in the mind that dwells compulsively in a "corridor of opposites". It's really kind of "perverse" to create a "counter-idea" and bring a distorted argument to a discussion you are not allowed to participate in, Paul.

Randall read the post above with take-outs from several of your posts and responses to what Tom has written. It seems fairly obvious that you do have ideas about what is "right" and what is "wrong" with the things others post. To do this is to deal with opposites.

Also, you frequently take things people write out of context and reject what has been written by measuring it against the way K has seen something. In other words you take a common figure of speech that someone has used, take it out of context to show that what the person has written is in opposition to what most of us understand that K has held forth to be what is.

That's called a cheap shot.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #238
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Jack Pine wrote:
It just seems to me that you have made your point(s) and can we move on now?

And so you want to move from here to there? From where to where precisely? People here say they get something unique and special coming to the forum year after year, yet the discussion does not move. I realize that pointing to the fact over and over makes people upset and labels me as a pessimistic negative nancy, however I do what I do, and I can do no other (just like everyone else).

Like this example Randall where I used the common expression "move on". In this case I am asking, "May we continue with the thread? You have taken it out of context and applied another meaning altogether to what I wrote. There are more examples if you want to look them up yourself. I'm going to finish my green tea and smell the orange trees.

And then you point out that the discussion "does not move". Are you saying that it should move? Sounds like it.

The problem with criticizing almost everything that others say and do is that one who does that invariably finds himself doing the same thing he is criticizing others for.

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #239
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Like this example Randall where I used the common expression "move on". In this case I am asking, "May we continue with the thread? You have taken it out of context and applied another meaning altogether to what I wrote. There are more examples if you want to look them up yourself.

Exactly, Jack. If you say, "Can we move on with the discussion", randall will take it to mean that we know where we're heading or have a goal to get somewhere. I don't know if this example holds, but when I was young I'd get together with a few musician friends and one guy would start strumming some chords on the guitar and than another would play a little riff on the harmonica and we'd all start 'jamming'/improvising. The first guy might have said, "Let's see where we go with this". It doesn't mean we know where we're going....we were just taking a musical journey together....never knowing if we'd end up with a great tune or whatever....just having fun. Now K is supposed to be much more urgent and serious than what we were doing, but we can still approach him with the spirit of taking a journey together into the unknown, can't we? If we're looking for that great insight that some feel K had, then we're not likely to find it.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 02 Apr 2017 #240
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3830 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
It seems fairly obvious that you do have ideas about what is "right" and what is "wrong" with the things others post. To do this is to deal with opposites.

This is your imagination telling you all about it.

Stuff happens

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 211 - 240 of 297 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)