Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Choiceless perception

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #91
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

How does this virgin/new me enter the scene when one is angry or worried about losing one's job, for instance?
It seems it might be 'too late' at that point. If it rains the streets get wet...If you find yourself "worrying" the reaction will be to escape it.

This would seem to imply that we're all doomed....if there's no way out of this vicious circle. But then you bring in 'not naming' the sensation. How does this come about. I can't simply make an effort to not name....that would imply I've already named or recognized the sensation.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #92
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Vast differences.

Between me or you and Trump or Hitler....or the religious fundamentalist....yes, there are differences, of course. Randall is probably pointing to some fundamental way in which we relate (often reacting from our conditioning) to one another through the screen of images and ideas and subconscious beliefs and conclusions. I'll let him elaborate if he's so inclined.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #93
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1378 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
This would seem to imply that we're all doomed....if there's no way out of this vicious circle. But then you bring in 'not naming' the sensation. How does this come about. I can't simply make an effort to not name....that would imply I've already named or recognized the sensation.

I see it as the same challenge of K.'s as can you look at the flower or tree without the 'naming', without the knowledge accumulated about flowers, about trees...look at it without any of that, without the 'past' coming between you and it?

Yes it is different when applied to myself but unless the 'choiceless perception' or awareness is there, that "vicious cycle" must continue: I will continue to see myself as separate from the sensation and try to act upon it in some way.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 24 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #94
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I will continue to see myself as separate from the sensation and try to act upon it in some way.

Or analyze the fear or anger as if the analyzer is separate from what he analyzes. But we also try to analyze the problem as if it's external to 'me'....in an impending divorce we may go over all the things my wife did or said 'wrong'....or all that I did or said...in the hope of salvaging the relationship. So it's not just the anger we think about, but the wife or the child or business partner who has done us 'wrong'. All this is happening in 'my' consciousness which 'I' have broken up into fragments which are fighting with each other.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 24 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #95
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 793 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
If I may. I know what you mean. I often come to this realization when I am walking in the mountains. Realizing that instead of taking in this magnificent scenery, the smells of trees and rocks (yes some rocks have a smell) in the air, the sounds of birds calling I am instead thinking about something I have to do later or something that I have already done.

This is true for me as well. I find that it is on my regular walks through mixed pine/oak woodlands that I realise how my mind is wandering instead of being aware of the natural beauty around me. I know that some have said that it's fairly easy to observe with a quiet mind when one is in a peaceful place surrounded by nature by my experience is that thought tends to chatter away constantly wherever I am. When I become aware of my inattention I become aware of the sights, smells and sounds around me.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #96
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1357 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
OK thanks Wim....going to look further into this 'inwardly' to see if I get what you're saying.

Tom,
Be careful with this because this information could disturb your observation ;-)
Also K. said 'the dying is the beginning' so there is no causal effect but instantaneous.
During the day I had an informative idea, a metafoor on this matter.
Do you know the lemniscate the sign of enduring energy ?
you have one stream of energy which divide space in two circles (old and new) and on the crossing of the lines it happens the old disappears and the new appear.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #97
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1378 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Or analyze the fear or anger as if the analyzer is separate from what he analyzes. But we also try to analyze the problem as if it's external to 'me'.

This is from the Commentaries on Living Series: (bold is mine)

You are nothing. You may have your name and title, your property and bank account, you may have power and be famous; but in spite of all these safeguards, you are as nothing. You may be totally unaware of this emptiness, this nothingness, or you may simply not want to be aware of it; but it is there, do what you will to avoid it. You may try to escape from it in devious ways, through personal or collective violence, through individual or collective worship, through knowledge or amusement; but whether you are asleep or awake, it is always there. You can come upon your relationship to this nothingness and its fear only by being choicelessly aware of the escapes. You are not related to it as a separate, individual entity; you are not the observer watching it; without you, the thinker, the observer, it is not. You and nothingness are one; you and nothingness are a joint phenomenon, not two separate processes. If you, the thinker, are afraid of it and approach it as something contrary and opposed to you, then any action you may take towards it must inevitably lead to illusion and so to further conflict and misery. When there is the discovery, the experiencing of that nothingness as you, then fear - which exists only when the thinker is separate from his thoughts and so tries to establish a relationship with them - completely drops away. Only then is it possible for the mind to be still; and in this tranquillity, truth comes into being.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 24 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #98
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1357 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
This is true for me as well. I find that it is on my regular walks through mixed pine/oak woodlands that I realise how my mind is wandering instead of being aware of the natural beauty around me.

Sean,

Beeing busy with something, like gardening or Filling the dishwasher or putting the garbage along the way I am aware of flashes of answers to questions I had asked me earlier sometimes days or weeks earlier.

I find those flashes of great value precisely because they arise spontaneously and not by worrying or thinking.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #99
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

OK thanks Wim....going to look further into this 'inwardly' to see if I get what you're saying.
Tom,
Be careful with this because this information could disturb your observation ;-)

Not to worry, Wim...I won't bang my head against any walls....don't want to get a headache :) But you were good enough to reply to my post so I feel it's only fair that I give a little thought to what you're trying to say. At first... and now second...glance it's still puzzling to me.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 24 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #100
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Of course there are significant differences between people,

Yes, conditioning/programming/experience is/are vastly different between people. However, K would tell you that these factors (and the way they are expressed) are the division between people, not the commonality he speaks of. Go ahead and compare K and Trump, if you like, to justify your belief but that is non sensical at best and intellectually dishonest at worst. K's mind/thinking worked in the same general manner as Trump's and Hitler's.

Please do not bother to answer as any response will be predictable and unnecessary (unless you want to help prove the point).

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #101
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
Are you inplying that a thread should never go off in a new direction?

I am not implying anything, simply pointing out the obvious nature of the use of knowledge/information as a form of entertainment/security/comfort. (in the guise of translating the unknowable).

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #102
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Some might find it interesting.

Is this, you gloating Jack?

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #103
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
All I'm saying is that there are differences in the way that brain expresses itself. Vast differences.

But this is understood on a Krishnamurti discussion forum, Jack.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #104
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
differences between the ways the human mind sees life and expresses those views.

Quite so Jack. As a young boy, I wanted a Beatles haircut. Which was my way of conforming to my small group of security seeking non conformists. Just because someone else was conforming to the flat-top security seeking group, doesn't mean we were fundamentally different or special/significant.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #105
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Is this, you gloating Jack?

No I don't "gloat". This is you issuing yet another of your opinions based on hot air.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #106
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Interesting about choiceless awareness. I remember where in one in one of his talks K got a bit hemmed in when someone spoke about determinism and choice - what actually is choice? Normally K seems to respond to everything pretty effortlessly but this time didn't seem to deal with it.

Randall, I can't believe that you had longer hair than The Beatles.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith (account deleted) Sat, 25 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #107
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
But this is understood on a Krishnamurti discussion forum, Jack.

If it is understood then why did you take issue with it? I pointed out that not everyone posts in memorized bits of information. You said everyone was the same. I still say NO they aren't. People talk, act, discuss differently. That's where this started. And this is where it ends for me.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #108
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Please do not bother to answer as any response will be predictable and unnecessary (unless you want to help prove the point).

This comment is both rude and arrogant. You are not only telling me not to post but also that I can't disagree with you.

We just got rid of a nuisance, a self-appointed authority, on this forum. Let's keep it that way. Also let's show some respect for others with the way we disagree and the way we respond to them.

Tone it down a bit Randall. You're coming across as maybe a little too shrill and strident. Thank you

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #109
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
By the way. Has anyone read Dev's latest post on the Forum Guidelines and Violation Notices? Some might find it interesting.

There is a tricky balance between being politically correct all the time, and never disagreeing with someone else, being afraid to challenge another person's thinking.

But how far can one go with being challenging?

How about playing the sounds of bombs to someone with PTSD because of their involvement in conflict, and then saying it's your conditioning that is the problem, not my challenge? Why can't you face the facts? Why hold on to images? You are stuck with what should be etc. etc.

We are all responsible for each other, as well as ourselves. Not in the sense that it's my fault if someone else believes in X/Y/Z, but in the sense that we are all breakable, limited and human.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #110
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Or analyze the fear or anger as if the analyzer is separate from what he analyzes. But we also try to analyze the problem as if it's external to 'me'.
This is from the Commentaries on Living Series: (bold is mine)

You are nothing. You may have your name and title, your property and bank account, you may have power and be famous; but in spite of all these safeguards, you are as nothing. You may be totally unaware of this emptiness, this nothingness, or you may simply not want to be aware of it; but it is there, do what you will to avoid it

Not sure how this relates to what we were discussing, Dan. Can you relate K's point about being nothing to what we were discussing about observation? About the division between 'me' and 'my' problem...anger, fear, divorce, etc.? Where does being 'nothing' come in?

Let it Be

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #111
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1378 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Where does being 'nothing' come in?

It comes in everywhere doesn't it (IF it's true)? Isn't the lack of that realization, (IF it's true), the reason for all our conflicts, anger, sorrow etc. We don't realize this no-thingness. I think that it was K.'s greatest realization. By not realizing it, we attach ourselves to the external world for security because we fear being 'nothing' (IF that's what we are). The name, the spouse, the house, the family, a "center", a 'self'...I included the quote because without this possible 'nothingness' in mind, the 'problems' are insoluble... the discussion subject here is 'Choiceness Perception'. Here is the next line from the quote:

K.:You can come upon your relationship to this nothingness and its fear only by being choicelessly aware of the escapes.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 25 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #112
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
K.:You can come upon your relationship to this nothingness and its fear only by being choicelessly aware of the escapes.

Other times he said to be 'choicelessly aware' of the fear....or the anger. Do you see any relationship between looking at anger itself....or fear....and looking at this nothingness? Fear may be a complex issue. I'm not sure it's as simple as being afraid of facing this 'nothingness'.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #113
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
By not realizing it, we attach ourselves to the external world for security because we fear being 'nothing' (IF that's what we are). The name, the spouse, the house, the family, a "center", a 'self'...I included the quote because without this possible 'nothingness' in mind, the 'problems' are insoluble

what does the part in bold mean, Dan? 'Nothingness in mind' would imply thinking about it. Do you really mean, 'without BEING it'? Isn't this just theoretical?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 25 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #114
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1357 posts in this forum Offline

Hi All,

Back to the original question:

Looking in those differences between observing, perceiving and awareness it became somewhat clearer by studying as well as the Dutch as the English dictionaries and this is how it is seen now.

Percieving has to do with 'HOW' it is seen,
Observing is the looking itself and
Awareness is simple said the being aware of all the things involved.

Perception: a belief or opinion, often held by many people and based on how things seem

So it's depended on the position one take at the subject ! See photo's:

http://mentalhealthandhappiness.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/perception1.jpg

both are arguing forever for seeing rightly.

http://searchfedrick.weebly.com/uploads/3/8/0/9/38098211/9219177_orig.jpg

One sees or the two faces or the candle but not in one instance !

Verbal Examples are :
It is my perception that his argument was fundamentally flawed.
These perceptions reflect those of the general public.
Popular perception of him is gradually changing.

Observation is the active acquisition of information from a primary source.
In living beings, observation employs the senses.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #115
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5517 posts in this forum Offline

Very interesting post Wim. I realize now that I never really understood what perception is. Via your graphic examples above one sees that perception is dependent on one's point of view, or conditioning. Or at least perception can be subject to such influence.

I have added a quote below from K which I think sheds some more light on perception. I'm not 100% sure I understand all of this quote.

*To imagine is one thing, and to perceive what is is another

To imagine is one thing, and to perceive what is is another, but both are binding. It is easy to perceive what is, but to be free of it is another matter; for perception is clouded with judgment, with comparison, with desire. To perceive without the interference of the censor is arduous. Imagination builds the image of the self, and thought then functions within its shadows. From this self-concept grows the conflict between what is and what should be, the conflict in duality. Perception of the fact and idea about the fact, are two entirely different states, and only a mind that is not bound by opinion, by comparative values, is capable of perceiving what is true.
Commentaries On Living Series II Chapter 50 Convictions--Dreams*

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #116
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
You are not only telling me not to post but also that I can't disagree with you.

Do we see how compelling the urge to choose dominates our perception? Like-dislike/agree-disagree, this is what K is talking about when he uses the term choice/choiceless. We can't seem to get along in our lives without the urge to choose.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #117
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
I pointed out that not everyone posts in memorized bits of information.

And I pointed that most everyone does.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #118
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
I'll let him elaborate if he's so inclined.

Seems pretty obvious that the fundamental human condition exists within every human mind. Most seem inclined to stay within the comfort/security/pleasure of that choice-full awareness/thought bound prison. Nothing new here.

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Sat, 25 Mar 2017 #119
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3155 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

I'll let him elaborate if he's so inclined.
Seems pretty obvious that the fundamental human condition exists within every human mind. Most seem inclined to stay within the comfort/security/pleasure of that choice-full awareness/thought bound prison

I thought you might elaborate on why that applies to what goes on here....why that same mind is evident here on the forum. We like to believe we are engaged in something fundamentally different than the guys at the bar discussing the Yankees or Giants. Or the religious fundamentalists at church on Sunday.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #120
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
We like to believe we are engaged in something fundamentally different

So you are suggesting that more words/information/knowledge will help me see something very clear and obvious?

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