Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Choiceless perception

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #61
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5662 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
What else we/you got, Jack? Freedom? Choiceless perception?

The common ability not to constantly write/speak in set phrases, clauses and soundbites that originated from someone else and that we repeat constantly in reply to others even though we don't really understand what the others may be trying to say.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 23 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #62
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 864 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
No, you misunderstood. Now I lost track of what we were discussing

We were discussing choiceless perception. Wim's statement that choiceless perception meant perception without thought made a lot of sense to me.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #63
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
We were discussing choiceless perception. Wim's statement that choiceless perception meant perception without thought made a lot of sense to me.

Yes. I sse that thought is always trying to correct or modify our actions and modify or censor other thoughts. How do you see it that perception comes into our thinking and reacting mind? Obviously not by thinking about it. Is it simply a matter of attention? As soon as I pay attention to anger or some other conflict, doesn't thinking about it start? Just questioning how our minds normally work.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 23 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #64
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 864 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How do you see it that perception comes into our thinking and reacting mind?

Hi Tom. In some situations I become aware that I'm not being attentive at all, that I'm deep in thought. In that moment attention comes. Do you know what I mean?

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #65
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Do you know what I mean?

Yes....it comes by itself. I'm asking if this attention is there when there's a deep conflict, or do we get lost in the little self enclosed world of me and my problem?

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #66
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5662 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Hi Tom. In some situations I become aware that I'm not being attentive at all, that I'm deep in thought. In that moment attention comes. Do you know what I mean?

If I may. I know what you mean. I often come to this realization when I am walking in the mountains. Realizing that instead of taking in this magnificent scenery, the smells of trees and rocks (yes some rocks have a smell) in the air, the sounds of birds calling I am instead thinking about something I have to do later or something that I have already done.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #67
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 864 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Yes....it comes by itself. I'm asking if this attention is there when there's a deep conflict, or do we get lost in the little self enclosed world of me and my problem?

Hi again Tom. I think that if there's a deep conflict it tends to be all consuming and makes observation difficult. I mean, if I'm worried about my relationship with a partner all day it's going to be difficult to observe much. I mean it's difficult to have a quiet mind when one is under a lot of stress. That's been my experience.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
. I think that if there's a deep conflict it tends to be all consuming and makes observation difficult. I mean, if I'm worried about my relationship with a partner all day it's going to be difficult to observe much.

That was the point I was making the other day before we got sidetracked. How will we understand these deep conflicts of anger and fear if attention is always wrapped up in the 'known' of the problem and our hoped for solutions. K asked if we can observe the problem 'choicelessly'. But can anyone actually do this? Do I, you, or any of us actually do it? Or only think about it? I'm not talking about observing the mountain or the sunset...that may be fairly easy....but about observing the problem of fear or anger without choice...without thought?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 23 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #69
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1382 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
but about observing the problem of fear or anger without choice...without thought?

I don't know about 'fear' but observing 'anger'.
I have done and so I suppose it can be done by others too ;-)

But you added also without 'thought' and this is not what was meant earlier
'choiseless' is without 'ME/thought interfearing, active in the observation',
it is there but as dead material
belonging to the observed active structure of the process of anger !!

Let me put it differently: the old Me is seen by the present Me,
do you understand ??

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 23 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #70
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
the old Me is seen

That's enough. Seeing thought's interference in the observation...is that what you're saying is happening, Wim? When there's attention to the whole process that's going on.....is this what is meant by choiceless awareness? Are you saying that one is not lost in trying to act upon the problem....anger or whatever....anymore? One sees that the attempt to act upon the anger ....or analyze it....is part of the anger....not separate, as we usually think?

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #71
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Hi Tom. In some situations I become aware that I'm not being attentive at all, that I'm deep in thought. In that moment attention comes. Do you know what I mean?

Exactly, which mean one comes to inattention to attention, by being aware that we were inattentive. Though right thinking shouldn't be overlook, if I may say.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #72
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Though right thinking shouldn't be overlook, if I may say.

Can you explain what is meant by 'right thinking'? If I'm feeling betrayed, angry, hurt, by my wife and her desire to leave me, what would it mean to think 'right' about what's going on 'inwardly' in 'me'?

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #73
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Well I was reffering to what Jack said. Though it is a different topic. It could be look in another thread.

Jack Pine wrote:
If I may. I know what you mean. I often come to this realization when I am walking in the mountains. Realizing that instead of taking in this magnificent scenery, the smells of trees and rocks (yes some rocks have a smell) in the air, the sounds of birds calling I am instead thinking about something I have to do later or something that I have already done.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 23 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #74
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If I'm feeling betrayed, angry, hurt, by my wife and her desire to leave me, what would it mean to think 'right' about what's going on 'inwardly' in 'me'?

Can thought be of any help in that area, at that level ? Thought create fears, attachments, and all the rest. Can one called this the psyche ? Thoughts have create this psyche,those problems, and is unable to solve them. It seems obvious.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 23 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #75
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Let me put it differently: the old Me is seen by the present Me,
do you understand ??

Yes. Nicely said . It is the observed ( the old me ) is seen by the present me ( the observer, which is everlasting changing according to his thoughts of the moment) . It is refreshing to hear it in differents words.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #76
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Can thought be of any help in that area, at that level ? Thought create fears, attachments, and all the rest.

But you brought in the term 'right thinking'. I was responding to your message, Rich Nolet wrote:

"Though right thinking shouldn't be overlook, if I may say." Please re-read my question if you're interested...post #72.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #77
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Right thinking is the necessary thought that occurs about a rendez-vous or something we have to do, like building an airplane. Stuff like that. But it is thought which have create the problem at the psyche level, which have creates fears , attachements and gods and the me , thoughts have create those problems.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #78
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

OK....some confusion on my part. I normally refer to that as 'practical thought'....how to cook an egg, etc., as you describe. K talked about another kind of 'right thinking', if I recall correctly, and if I get the time I'll search for a quote about that.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #79
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Here's K. on 'right thinking':

"what is required is right thinking. Right thinking is not a formula. It is not based on any system. Right thinking can only take place when there is self-knowledge, that is, when the individual understands his total position and that is where we will find the greatest difficulty. To understand something requires an intensity, an unnatural intellectual intensity. Your approach is going to be the most difficult job as you are not used to thinking as a whole but only used to thinking compartmentally. So right thinking seems to me to be the solution for the present chaos and right thinking cannot come either through any formula or through following anybody. Right thinking can only take place through self-knowledge, that is, knowing yourself. To know yourself you have to study yourself. If one is to understand oneself he must cease to condemn. If you understand something you must not compare it with something else. You must study it by itself." Madras, 1947, public talk.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 23 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #80
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, practical thinking is one thing that we agree about what it is. And K. seems to point at something different with right-thinking, as demonstrate your quote. I'll stay with it for a while. Thanks.

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Thu, 23 Mar 2017.

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #81
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Here another one from Mumbai, 1948:
"Our problem, then, is how to think rightly. Now, right thinking and right thought are two different states, are they not? Right thinking has to be discovered, whereas right thought is merely conformity to a pattern. Right thinking is a process, whereas right thought is static. Right thinking is constant movement, constant discovery; that is, only through constant awareness in action, which is relationship, can there be right thinking. But right thought is always static; you can pick up right thought. You can regiment your mind, force your mind, discipline it to think along right lines, but that is not right thinking. Right thinking can come into being only through self-knowledge, and self-knowledge is never static. I am using the word self - knowledge in its full meaning - knowledge of the self, not only the higher but the lower self. To me, the self, the desire, is both the high and the low. We have divided the self for convenience, as a means of escape; but actually, to understand the self, one must understand the whole process of thinking, which is consciousness."

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #82
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
set phrases, clauses and soundbites that originated from someone else

Are you suggesting there is a significant difference? I will just say Jack, that the difference between human minds (yours-Jeans-mine) is/are not vastly or fundamentally different (better/worse).

Stuff happens

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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 #83
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
That was the point I was making the other day before we got sidetracked. How will we understand these deep conflicts

Yes, if we are prone to the phenomenon of being side-tracked.....

If I am confused and living the level of sound bites and snippets and quotes from others/the public domain, the consequence is being sidetracked/inattentive.

If we are serious and passionate about all this (depending less on words/charm) it becomes less of an option to be sidetracked (because we are too busy being attentive).

Stuff happens

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #84
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Yes, if we are prone to the phenomenon of being side-tracked.....

Your post is confusing, Randall. Are you inplying that a thread should never go off in a new direction? I do understand what you're saying about the manner in which side - tracking often comes about, however.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 24 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #85
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1382 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
That's enough. Seeing thought's interference in the observation...is that what you're saying is happening, Wim?

I've still the feeling that your wording isn't what is meant.

Let's try it to say it otherwise:

Choisless observation is the virgin new me (without thought) is looking
at the old me (active thought) trying to become present.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #86
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Choisless observation is the virgin new me (without thought) is looking
at the old me (active thought) trying to become present.

OK thanks Wim....going to look further into this 'inwardly' to see if I get what you're saying. How does this virgin/new me enter the scene when one is angry or worried about losing one's job, for instance? I try to bring on examples from every day living that most people can relate to. Otherwise some of the points we're discussing get lost on me. It’s just how I come to understand these kinds of issues....to look at a conflict as it's happening, not just think about it. To look at the mind/emotions in action. K talked about following the inner movements 'swiftly' to use his word....being attentive to what is happening now in 'me'. To be attentive, as opposed to analyzing. To be attentive to the flight of a seagull you can't freeze the movement of his flight in thought....the attention becomes one with the flight. Similarly when one watches the movement in consciousness, I think.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 24 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #87
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5662 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Jack Pine wrote:
set phrases, clauses and soundbites that originated from someone else

randall merryman wrote:

Are you suggesting there is a significant difference? I will just say Jack, that the difference between human minds (yours-Jeans-mine) is/are not vastly or fundamentally different (better/worse).

Of course there are significant differences between people, between living things of the same species too. We can't just write everything off by saying, "Well really we are all the same, etc, etc."

Everyone has two eyes but to write that off as being all the same you miss so much. There are different eye colors, shapes and eye expressions like suffering and joy and so on.

One might say all birds are the same but watching birds, seeing their distinct plumage, hearing their various whistles and calls, watching a hawk circling in a thermal not beating his wings and then suddenly folding those wings and diving toward the ground (as my wife and I were lucky enough to witness yesterday) are all details that make life interesting. Not all birds are like the hawk or the humming bird.

Would you say that Krishnamurti and Trump are the same? Say the same things, think the same things, etc?

You say there are not vast differences between the way human minds work. But there are vast differences between the ways the human mind sees life and expresses those views.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 24 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #88
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1432 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How does this virgin/new me enter the scene when one is angry or worried about losing one's job, for instance?

It seems it might be 'too late' at that point. If it rains the streets get wet...If you find yourself "worrying" the reaction will be to escape it. If the sensation you are feeling is recognized as 'worry',that recognition is from memory, the past, the "old me". To be aware of the sensation and not 'name' it would be to see it as something 'new', something that is arising. It is a different relation with yourself, not the past reacting to the present. In this context I recall K.'s analogy to a "jewel", not something to be thrown away. Which doesn't mean I indulge in "worry". But seeing it in this way, I understand where it will lead and it can dissipate. When I see the bus is coming, I don't step out in front of it.

This may be all wrong of course

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #89
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5662 posts in this forum Offline

By the way. Has anyone read Dev's latest post on the Forum Guidelines and Violation Notices? Some might find it interesting.

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Fri, 24 Mar 2017 #90
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5662 posts in this forum Offline

Yeah Ken that is all probably true. But we deal everyday with differences in things that are the "same". All I'm saying is that there are differences in the way that brain expresses itself. Vast differences.

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