Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #121
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
You might be standing on a busy train lost in thought but not agitated. You might even be having thoughts that give you some pleasure.

Right Sean, but agitated or not, in both cases when mind is busy with thoughts, pleasant or not, there is no presence ... because thought and presence are mutually exclusive ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #122
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
Sean Hen wrote:

You might be standing on a busy train lost in thought but not agitated. You might even be having thoughts that give you some pleasure.
Right Sean, but agitated or not, in both cases when mind is busy with thoughts, pleasant or not, there is no presence ... because thought and presence are mutually exclusive ...

Thinking...presence...?

Forget labeling, maybe, and observe? In the QOTD K. speaks of facing what actually 'is'.
"Those of us who are seriously intentioned can investigate our own lives, we can see how we are violent in daily life, in our speech, in our thoughts, in our actions, in our feelings, and we can be free of that violence, not because of an ideal not by trying to transform it into nonviolence(or 'presence', Tom), but by actually facing it, by merely being aware of it;"

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 18 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #123
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 386 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:

Exactly. The mind is not quiet but it wants to be. Why? So the mind can only begin where it is, in the condition it is --- that is, noisy, agitated.

Sean Hen wrote:

Hi Huguette and all. Well, I understand that the mind is noisy as thought is constantly chattering away. Is the mind agitated? It might be but activity of thought does not necessarily imply agitation. You might be standing on a busy train lost in thought but not agitated. You might even be having thoughts that give you some pleasure. Does the mind want to be quiet? Well, perhaps if one is very stressed and having unpleasant thoughts that mind might want to be quiet but I don't know if in general people want their minds to be quiet. I would imagine that most people have not really paid any attention to whether their minds are quiet or not unless they have read Krishnamurti or studied mindfulness.

What about the following situation? - I am standing on a busy underground train in a big European city thinking about what I am going to cook for dinner. I become aware of the fact that I am lost in thought and bring my attention to the here and now. I begin to observe the people around me, see their faces and hear the different languages being spoken. For a short period my mind is quiet, thought is absent and I am simply observing what is going on around me. This does not require any effort and I have not set out to do this. I simply became aware of the fact that I was thinking and brought my attention to what was going on around me.

In the above situation, I think it can be said that when one observes in this way one is more aware of what is actually going on than when one is deep in thought. I'm not saying you should do this or that this will solve the problems we face. You can observe with a quiet mind, observe with a noisy mind or not observe at all.

The thinking brain is in constant movement, isn’t it? There are quiet moments without thought, there are quiet moments with thought, there is occasional joy, there are moments of enthusiasm, laughter, absorption, annoyance, conflict, anger, fear, suffering, darkness, and so on. What most people in general want to do or are interested in - be quiet or not, pay attention to the workings of the mind or not - is not up to me.

I AM interested in looking into the functioning of thought, understanding the anxiety, agitation, depression, aggressivity, cruelty, suffering, fear which seem to drive so much of action/relationship and cause so much chaos, understanding what is at the root of anxiety, etc., and in talking these things over with others who are interested in self-understanding.

If someone is not suffering, obviously suffering can’t be faced. But if there IS suffering, isn’t constantly flitting from one possibility to another, one example to another, one idea to another, an avoidance of suffering? When I said agitated, I meant agitated, not simply active. While it is in an agitated condition, can the agitated mind observe the quiet mind? The agitated mind cannot observe anything, can it? Whatever it observes must be tainted by its agitation, no? But the action of observation does not come from the field of agitation, from the field of thought, does it? That is, observation is not idea, thought, knowledge, it is not based on memory.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 18 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #124
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 548 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
While it is in an agitated condition, can the agitated mind observe the quiet mind? The agitated mind cannot observe anything, can it? Whatever it observes must be tainted by its agitation, no? But the action of observation does not come from the field of agitation, from the field of thought, does it? That is, observation is not idea, thought, knowledge, it is not based on memory.

Hi Huguette. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "can the agitated mind observe the quiet mind?". Surely we only have one mind. It's either quiet or agitated, isn't it? If the mind is agitated it will probably be very difficult to observe much clearly. I certainly agree that observation isn't an idea and that clear observation isn't based on thought, memory or knowledge.

Huguette . wrote:
I AM interested in looking into the functioning of thought, understanding the anxiety, agitation, depression, aggressivity, cruelty, suffering, fear which seem to drive so much of action/relationship and cause so much chaos, understanding what is at the root of anxiety, etc., and in talking these things over with others who are interested in self-understanding.

I'm interested in these things too Huguette. I think Krishnamurti went very, very far in terms of self-observation and obtained a most unusual insight into what causes anxiety, depression and suffering. As far as I can see, he pointed the way for us to gain such insight by talking about self-observation and awareness. He also talked about the problems of thought and conditioning distorting our observations both internally and externally. That's what I understand, at least.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Sat, 18 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #125
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote (quoting and commenting K):
"Those of us who are seriously intentioned can investigate our own lives, we can see how we are violent in daily life, in our speech, in our thoughts, in our actions, in our feelings, and we can be free of that violence, not because of an ideal not by trying to transform it into nonviolence(or 'presence', Tom), but by actually facing it, by merely being aware of it;"

Your comment is not valid Tom because 'presence' is not a concept like 'nonviolence' ... presence means the absence of concepts, the absence of thoughts ... so presence also implies awareness here and now ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #126
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 386 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "can the agitated mind observe the quiet mind?". Surely we only have one mind. It's either quiet or agitated, isn't it? If the mind is agitated it will probably be very difficult to observe much clearly.

That's what I mean. The mind that is agitated or conflicted wants peace, i.e. quiet, but that very desire is engendered by its agitation, its discomfort. Even in its agitation, the conditioned mind can see this whole process, can't it? It knows it is agitated. It knows that this agitation is painful, uncomfortable. It knows that it cannot remedy this fact - that is, being agitated, it cannot aim for or achieve peacefulness. Trying to be silent has no meaning for it, does it? And the observation of the whole of this IS silent action, unconditioned, isn't it? Is there anything else to be "done"?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sat, 18 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #127
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
presence means the absence of concepts, the absence of thoughts ... so presence also implies awareness here and now ...

But the 'what is' that K speaks of in the QOTD is surely not presence. Why speak of something that is a non fact when we are looking at what actually is... the violence and conflict we live with? Why bring a non fact into our observation? It has no value.

Let it Be

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #128
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Tom why don't you just point out to him that "presence" is a word...

presence means the absence of concepts, the absence of thoughts ... so presence also implies awareness here and now ...

.....which represents a CONCEPT. The concept that Jean has of "presence" as defined by him above. How you can you discuss something with someone who doesn't even recognized what he is saying? Why try? I mean how can you discuss something with someone this obtuse?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 18 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #129
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 1196 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why bring a non fact into our observation? It has no value.

Right it is what the conditioned mind has been taught to do.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #130
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jack Pine wrote:
Tom why don't you just point out to him that "presence" is a word...

Yes of course it's a word. The word presence has no value when we’re observing ourselves. A word..any word...becomes a barrier to observation....to looking.

Let it Be

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #131
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jack Pine wrote:
I mean how can you discuss something with someone this obtuse?

If there was only the two of us here, I probably wouldn't (no offense intended). But hopefully this is a group discussion.

Let it Be

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #132
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But the 'what is' that K speaks of in the QOTD is surely not presence.

When you bring attention to 'what is', this is presence ... this is the "flame of attention" K spoke of ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #133
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
The word presence has no value when we’re observing ourselves.

The word is a pointer, a finger pointing to some reality ...

There is an old saying:

"When the wise man points at the Moon, the fool looks at the finger."

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #134
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
The word is a pointer, a finger pointing to some reality ...

There is an old saying:

"When the wise man points at the Moon, the fool looks at the finger."

Hmmmm....I would say that you're pointing to the known..something you already know, or have experienced. And now you want to teach it. I really don't want to continue with this line of inquiry because you already know where you're going with this and most of us here have heard it before. I'll leave it to others to carry on...or not.

Let it Be

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #135
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Hmmmm....I would say that you're pointing to the known..something you already know, or have experienced. And now you want to teach it.

Tom, no one can 'teach' you what you are already ... one can only point to it ... it's up to you to 'realize' it ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #136
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1020 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Why bring a non fact into our observation? It has no value.

that's because some people can't life with:
we have turned.... and understanding it as ...we turn.... ;-)

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #137
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:

Tom Paine wrote:

Why bring a non fact into our observation? It has no value.

that's because ...

and what is the value of 'explanations' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #138
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1020 posts in this forum Offline

QOTD 19-03-2017

"Most of us want to be occupied; otherwise we shall feel lost,
otherwise we do not know what to do, we will be lonely,
we will be confronted with what we actually are."

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #139
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom, no one can 'teach' you what you are already ... one can only point to it

Again, what you're pointing to is a non-fact. If I'm angry, that is the fact. Bringinging in the non fact of presence will not help me understand what I am. "Those of us who are seriously intentioned can investigate our own lives, we can see how we are violent in daily life, in our speech, in our thoughts, in our actions, in our feelings," (K) Investigate the fact....the violence, Jean. This is what K was saying in the QOTD I shared in #122...investigate...not conclude or believe. Btw, K never said, "you are the flame of attention" in the manner that you say "you are presence", to reply to your post above where you quoted his phrase. Don't have time right now to go back to your post and find the number.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 19 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #140
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Investigate the fact....the violence, Jean.

What is it that SEES the violence ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #141
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Investigate the fact....the violence, Jean.

J: What is it that SEES the violence ?

T: Off we go! :) Shouldn't we get back to the topic of the thread?

Let it Be

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #142
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Shouldn't we get back to the topic of the thread?

Another 'should be' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #143
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4837 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
T: Off we go! :) Shouldn't we get back to the topic of the thread?

One wonders why you continue to try to dialogue with someone who is so abusive, who seems to delight in taking every chance he gets to irritate instead of communicate? Do you really expect him to change and suddenly have a rational conversation with you? Can't you see that he is severely psychologically impaired?

Every comment directed to him on this forum becomes fodder for more of his irrational and abusive responses.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 19 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #144
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Jack Pine wrote:
Do you really expect him to change and suddenly have a rational conversation with you?

Not really. Just trying to steer the conversation back to what K was trying to point out. I was looking at anger this AM....really looking at it....exploring....and got some insight into the issue. This looking/observing/exploring of course can't happen when we have made up our mind that we are NOT the anger, but are something else (SELF, awareness, presence).

Let it Be

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #145
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

I found this from Juan today on Clive's forum in response to a post by Olive. I think it's relevant to what I was attempting to get across.

Olive B wrote:

But if you don’t experience infinite consciousness(by the act of knowing), it stays only a belief, and it shows out of your frustration.

Juan: Let me say that personally i'm not at all interested in experiencing the infinite consciousness, but only in fully experiencing my limited consciousness without which infinite consciousness is just an imagination (beautiful but utterly empty)

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 19 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #146
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 207 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Olive B wrote:

But if you don’t experience infinite consciousness(by the act of knowing), it stays only a belief, and it shows out of your frustration.

Experiencing infinite consciousness ? Tom, what is this suppose to mean ?
Because I really don't understand what your're at with such statement.

Tom Paine wrote:
Juan: Let me say that personally i'm not at all interested in experiencing the infinite consciousness, but only in fully experiencing my limited consciousness without which infinite consciousness is just an imagination (beautiful but utterly empty)

Whether the experiencer experiment the infinite or the limited, still, he is the past. The state of experience is quiet different from : I want to experience this or that, is not it ?This is better then that. Which imply a choice. It looks like we create two opposites, the infinite and the limited, and we choose to experiement one instead of the other, and vice et versa. And we become more and more confuse. A confuse mind just create more confusion. What is it that we are talking about here exactly, in all due respect ?

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sun, 19 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #147
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Experiencing infinite consciousness ?

Why look for 'infinite consciousness' ? Is it not enough to experience 'normal' consciousness ... why look for 'special' effects ? creating another expectation, another goal to attain, another 'becoming' ... time again ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 19 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #148
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

Rich Nolet wrote:
Experiencing infinite consciousness ? Tom, what is this suppose to mean

I was quoting Olive from the other forum, Rich. And Juan's reply to her statement.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 19 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #149
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 207 posts in this forum Offline

Why didn't you ask them what they meant exactly with such a statement? Don't we have to question eveything ? You quote something from someone from another forum, that you can't explain, and you say it is relevant to this thread. I don't understand.

Tom, if I may in all due respect, trying to discuss with someone who have all the symptoms of a narcissic confuse personnality will not help you to clarify anything (and I am not talking about Juan or Olive :-) ).

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sun, 19 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #150
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2998 posts in this forum Online

But I do understand Juan's statement. That's why I posted it. Can't copy and paste or quote on my phone, so I'll have to return to this later.

Let it Be

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