Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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we have turned .... and ... into a shelter for our own protection !

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #91
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3826 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
it is easy to be at peace in relaxing environment,

Well, it might seem easier to dull the mind/escape from chaos in a relaxing comfortable environment, but is any of that "at peace" (whatever you are suggesting that to mean)?

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #92
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
but is any of that "at peace"

I think Jean simply means relaxed. Lots of stressed out folks feel more relaxed when they take a vacation at the beach or out camping in 'the woods'. This of course does nothing to end conflict in their lives.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #93
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3826 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
stressed out folks feel more relaxed when they take a vacation at the beach or out camping in 'the woods'

Is this simply another form of escape/comfort/security? Is escape friendly to self understanding?

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #94
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Is this simply another form of escape/comfort/security?

Could be, yes. But relentless conflict may lead to some physical ailment or other....perhaps life threatening. A little vacation from the brutal dog eat dog business world...or the factory assembly line.... might not be a bad thing. But escape..,yes, probably it is an another escape from facing the inner and outer conflict that we usually live with.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #95
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

what is it that could make us feel at peace EVEN in challenging or stressful environments ?

Nothing. Only understanding what actually 'IS'....the stress/conflict....the conflict in 'me'...has any significance. Anything else is speculation...day dreaming as far as I can see.

The seeing of stress and conflict does not end it ...

What about realizing (seeing) the illusion of your erroneous identities ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 17 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #96
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

it is easy to be at peace in relaxing environment,

Well, it might seem easier to dull the mind/escape from chaos in a relaxing comfortable environment, but is any of that "at peace" (whatever you are suggesting that to mean)?

At peace means a silent mind ... no thought ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #97
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
The seeing of stress and conflict does not end it ...

Read more carefully, please. "Only understanding what actually 'IS'....the stress/conflict....the conflict in 'me'...has any significance" is what I wrote.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #98
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 997 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Isn't it a fact that the mind is in disorder? The mind likes silence, doesn't like silence, likes being occupied, doesn't like being preoccupied, it wants this and not that today and tomorrow it wants that and not this - it seems clear the mind is functioning in disorder.

Hi Huguette,

I like to see a beautiful sunrise as well as a sunset can I attribute my eyes that I can not see them at the same time ??

The function of the mind is being motion, but we are not trying to separate this unnecessary. Since the operation goes wrong, we do not hear the silence in the storm or as Krisnaji says:

But when there is that quality of the brain, which has understood the whole business of conditioning and is free, and silence is part of that enormous sound of the universe, and where there is the end of sorrow, there is passion. Compassion is that passion, and it is that intelligence, and then beyond that there is total nothingness.
Madras 1985

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 17 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #99
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
What about realizing (seeing) the illusion of your erroneous identities ?

I suspect that this 'seeing' will only lead to a further identification...identification with the SELF or 'formless awareness'.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #100
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
"Only understanding what actually 'IS'....the stress/conflict....the conflict in 'me'...has any significance" is what I wrote.

Then according to you Tom what is the nature of this 'understanding' ? ... what do you understand exactly in stress and conflicts ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #101
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

What about realizing (seeing) the illusion of your erroneous identities ?

I suspect that this 'seeing' will only lead to a further identification...identification with the SELF or 'formless awareness'.

Not really Tom, because awareness is not a form you can identify with ... you can only BE it ... and know you ARE it ... and this can only happen when all the erroneous identities are being released (and there is no 'doer' for this, only the seeing of the false)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #102
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I suspect that this 'seeing' will only lead to a further identification...identification with the SELF

This would be an absurdity ... could you say that you are NOT 'yourself' ? Is saying "I am myself" an identity ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #103
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Then according to you Tom what is the nature of this 'understanding' ? ... what do you understand exactly in stress and conflicts ?

Very simply put...you understand the nature of conflict.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #104
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Very simply put...you understand the nature of conflict.

... and what is this nature ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #105
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Very simply put...you understand the nature of conflict.
... and what is this nature ?

Well, you've probably read K enough, so I don't want to go into it here. Needless to say, it must be seen/observed in oneself. An intellectual understanding doesn't bring any kind of transformation.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #106
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Well, you've probably read K enough, so I don't want to go into it here.

I am not asking K ... I am asking YOU Tom ...

If you understand the nature of conflict, the answer is very simple, no ? Why make a reference to what K said then ? Is k living your life for you ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 17 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #107
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
If you understand the nature of conflict, the answer is very simple, no ? Why make a reference to what K said then ?

It's obvious why....it's a K forum and most of us have some intellectual understanding of what K said about conflict. Why should I add to it. the Teaching is pretty damn complete on that particular issue. We can follow K's pointers and actually see it in ourselves....but we have to actually observe...observe ourselves that is, not observe or think about what K or Tom or Jean says.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #108
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
I am not asking K ... I am asking YOU Tom ...

But you only ask a question that you already have an answer to. I'm not sure why you ask, really. Are you like the teacher giving an exam, or are we looking together? ....rhetorical question.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #109
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But you only ask a question that you already have an answer to. I'm not sure why you ask, really. Are you like the teacher giving an exam, or are we looking together? ....rhetorical question.

Tom post 106 is your reward for engaging with Jean. His rude, arrogant, patronizing post is essentially spitting in your face. And do you see how his stupidity has once again diverted the thread to him and his ignorance? Please, can we stick to the subject of the thread and not Jean's boundless arrogance and ignorance?

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #110
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
His rude, arrogant, patronizing post is essentially spitting in your face.

Yes, Jean comes off as quite patronizing, for sure. But let's get off the subject of Jean and back to the thread topic whatever the heck it was, haha...we've gone so far from it I totally lost track of what we were discussing.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #111
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 374 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:

Isn't it a fact that the mind is in disorder? The mind likes silence, doesn't like silence, likes being occupied, doesn't like being preoccupied, it wants this and not that today and tomorrow it wants that and not this - it seems clear the mind is functioning in disorder.

Wim Opdam wrote:

Hi Huguette,

I like to see a beautiful sunrise as well as a sunset can I attribute my eyes that I can not see them at the same time ??

The function of the mind is being motion, but we are not trying to separate this unnecessary. Since the operation goes wrong, we do not hear the silence in the storm or as Krisnaji says:

But when there is that quality of the brain, which has understood the whole business of conditioning and is free, and silence is part of that enormous sound of the universe, and where there is the end of sorrow, there is passion. Compassion is that passion, and it is that intelligence, and then beyond that there is total nothingness.
Madras 1985

There is no psychological conflict set in motion as a result of the fact that I cannot see sunrise and sunset at the same time, is there? The endless motion of the whole universe is indisputable.

And the mind IS in a state of contradiction, disorder, when it wants sunrise and sunset at the same time, when the psychological movement of time, fear and desire are identified with and attached to the universal motion, no? So isn't it necessary for the mind to see, understand, be aware of its own contradictions, fears, desires?

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #112
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But you only ask a question that you already have an answer to.

Why so Tom ? Don't you have your own answer ? Or are you a second hand person ?

The question was so plain simple: what is the nature of conflict ?

... and you are the one who said that understanding conflict is important ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 17 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #113
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 997 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
And the mind IS in a state of contradiction, disorder, when it wants sunrise and sunset at the same time, when the psychological movement of time, fear and desire are identified with and attached to the universal motion, no? So isn't it necessary for the mind to see, understand, be aware of its own contradictions, fears, desires?

Yes, that's it, seeing the contradiction of what's reality at that moment and what is not the reality, the wanted situation.
So even if one likes seeing the sun, enjoy also a rainy day.
So time is the difference between what is and what is not reality.

Accept the facts of life even if they are a burden.

P.S.: There is no psychological conflict set in motion as a result of the fact that I cannot see sunrise and sunset at the same time, is there ?

Afterwards a saw at the same time as misinformation the psychological conflict is in the wanting to see it when it's not there on a cloudy or rainy day. (Sorry for that) !!

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 17 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #114
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Don't you have your own answer ? Or are you a second hand person ?

Jean, your passive aggression is showing, I'm afraid. But I don't want to make this about Jean or Tom, so hopefully we will get back to the original topic.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #115
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3826 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
At peace means a silent mind ... no thought ...

So you are suggesting that this state of mind is easy to come upon? One simply needs a comfy chair and soft light and music and voila', one is whole/undivided???

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #116
Thumb_2777 randall merryman United States 3826 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I think Jean simply means relaxed

No no, Jean is suggesting something else entirely.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #117
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 4825 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
No no, Jean is suggesting something else entirely.

Do you want to make this thread about Jean? We all know Jean has no idea what he is talking about Randall. Jean puts ridiculous things on here that he knows are going to draw a response and then he goads people into dialoging with him by making idiotic follow up statements. Then the thread becomes about him. Please. Let it go.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 18 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #118
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 2963 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Then why don't you put on an old John Denver song and see if it works then come back, start a new thread and tell us if it works or not.

Sorry, poor attempt at humor. Deleted the post. Don't want to see the thread derailed into silliness.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 18 Mar 2017.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #119
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

At peace means a silent mind ... no thought ...

So you are suggesting that this state of mind is easy to come upon? One simply needs a comfy chair and soft light and music and voila', one is whole/undivided???

Well is it 'easy' to do nothing ? ... it should be the easiest state, however most people cannot stay one minute doing nothing at all (including not thinking) ... because thought is compulsive, it comes without being 'invited' ... thought is the worse addiction ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #120
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 523 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Exactly. The mind is not quiet but it wants to be. Why? So the mind can only begin where it is, in the condition it is --- that is, noisy, agitated.

Hi Huguette and all. Well, I understand that the mind is noisy as thought is constantly chattering away. Is the mind agitated? It might be but activity of thought does not necessarily imply agitation. You might be standing on a busy train lost in thought but not agitated. You might even be having thoughts that give you some pleasure. Does the mind want to be quiet? Well, perhaps if one is very stressed and having unpleasant thoughts that mind might want to be quiet but I don't know if in general people want their minds to be quiet. I would imagine that most people have not really paid any attention to whether their minds are quiet or not unless they have read Krishnamurti or studied mindfulness.

What about the following situation? - I am standing on a busy underground train in a big European city thinking about what I am going to cook for dinner. I become aware of the fact that I am lost in thought and bring my attention to the here and now. I begin to observe the people around me, see their faces and hear the different languages being spoken. For a short period my mind is quiet, thought is absent and I am simply observing what is going on around me. This does not require any effort and I have not set out to do this. I simply became aware of the fact that I was thinking and brought my attention to what was going on around me.

In the above situation, I think it can be said that when one observes in this way one is more aware of what is actually going on than when one is deep in thought. I'm not saying you should do this or that this will solve the problems we face. You can observe with a quiet mind, observe with a noisy mind or not observe at all.

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